Another day another developer speaking about OpenGL. This time around it's Aras Pranckevičius a developer of Unity.
He has a major point to make early on too:
I completely agree, as developers are starting to use OpenGL more and more as they look to support the growing Mac & Linux user-base that's thirsty for games.
I can't say I agree with many points he makes either especially when he states things like this:
I've never met a Windows gamer who doesn't update their graphics drivers, have you? Seems strange that someone who games on Windows wouldn't update the one thing that could really change their experience. Especially since on Windows things like the Nvidia control panel actually tells you each time there's a new update.
Not many people would be buying an actual graphics card not use Windows in-built drivers now would they?
Apparently that is now a power user thing to do which shocks me, just how little do you have to do to be a "power user" nowadays? I think this is a problem due to consoles, iphones & Androids since you have very little interaction other than updating apps (which you can make automatic).
Another thing about his post does shock me though:
You would think that someone who works on a game creation tool that supports building for Linux would look into it a bit more.
It seems Mantle and DirectX 12 have caused a massive stir amongst developers who have used OpenGL that's for sure. I wonder how many more developers will come out of their bat caves and speak up about OpenGL.
It is all well and good making blog posts on it, but if all people do is blog about it and not try and help OpenGL move forward in some way then we will just see a pattern of developers constantly speaking ill of it.
I'm not going to pretend that I have the faintest idea what all these blogs are talking about in regards to the innards of OpenGL. As a gamer I just want the best experience and more people helping out in developing OpenGL's API is always a good thing.
See the full post on it here from Aras. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
He has a major point to make early on too:
QuoteIf people complain, that at least means they do care!
I completely agree, as developers are starting to use OpenGL more and more as they look to support the growing Mac & Linux user-base that's thirsty for games.
I can't say I agree with many points he makes either especially when he states things like this:
QuoteOn Windows, out of the box, you do not get an OpenGL driver (but you do get a D3D one for most GPUs). And no, actual people out there do not update their drivers. Ever.
I've never met a Windows gamer who doesn't update their graphics drivers, have you? Seems strange that someone who games on Windows wouldn't update the one thing that could really change their experience. Especially since on Windows things like the Nvidia control panel actually tells you each time there's a new update.
Not many people would be buying an actual graphics card not use Windows in-built drivers now would they?
Apparently that is now a power user thing to do which shocks me, just how little do you have to do to be a "power user" nowadays? I think this is a problem due to consoles, iphones & Androids since you have very little interaction other than updating apps (which you can make automatic).
Another thing about his post does shock me though:
QuoteI’ve no idea about Linux. I know there are binary drivers for NV/AMD, and open source for Intel – but no idea about whether Linux people update drivers, or whether they come with OS etc.
You would think that someone who works on a game creation tool that supports building for Linux would look into it a bit more.
It seems Mantle and DirectX 12 have caused a massive stir amongst developers who have used OpenGL that's for sure. I wonder how many more developers will come out of their bat caves and speak up about OpenGL.
It is all well and good making blog posts on it, but if all people do is blog about it and not try and help OpenGL move forward in some way then we will just see a pattern of developers constantly speaking ill of it.
I'm not going to pretend that I have the faintest idea what all these blogs are talking about in regards to the innards of OpenGL. As a gamer I just want the best experience and more people helping out in developing OpenGL's API is always a good thing.
See the full post on it here from Aras. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Judging by the number of support posts in PC Game forums that contain the words "update your drivers" it's clear to me that not everyone does. I personsonally don't. It takes ages and it often breaks (NVidia installer just hangs). I do it only when a specific game does not work.
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This guy a f*cking idiot. "And no, actual people out there do not update their drivers. Ever." Oh yes we bloody do. Frequently. I agree Liam, for someone who is supposed to be programming games for Linux this guy is sadly lacking in even the most rudimentary knowledge of PCs and users.
If you've programmed Java I imagine (not being a programmer) that you've developed some basic knowledge of programming concepts, universals that would make learning another language, say C, easier, but it would still be learning a new language. Porting your coding knowledge from Windows to Linux is equally going to be a shock to the system. This blog post (by Pranckevičius) equates to nothing more than a Java programmer's confusion trying to code in C for the first time. When you get over you shock you might find C is infinitely better...
If the guy has nothing to offer in making OpenGL better and contributing to the code then he can stick his opinion where the sun doesn't doesn't shine.
If you've programmed Java I imagine (not being a programmer) that you've developed some basic knowledge of programming concepts, universals that would make learning another language, say C, easier, but it would still be learning a new language. Porting your coding knowledge from Windows to Linux is equally going to be a shock to the system. This blog post (by Pranckevičius) equates to nothing more than a Java programmer's confusion trying to code in C for the first time. When you get over you shock you might find C is infinitely better...
If the guy has nothing to offer in making OpenGL better and contributing to the code then he can stick his opinion where the sun doesn't doesn't shine.
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It is all well and good making blog posts on it, but if all people do is blog about it and not try and help OpenGL move forward in some way then we will just see a pattern of developers constantly speaking ill of it.
Immediate discussion!
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I personsonally don't. It takes ages and it often breaks (NVidia installer just hangs). I do it only when a specific game does not work.I use manjaro linux and my drivers are updated with system update.It's always work flawlessly.
http://manjaro.org/
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I've never met a Windows gamer who doesn't update their graphics drivers, have you?Yes, a lot. You know I support players of Planetary Annihilation for about a year and here is my personal sub-forum on Steam:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/233250/discussions/2/
I suppose there was few thousands of topics related to old drivers and possible more. Even if game will print large text with "UPDATE YOUR DRIVERS" many people wouldn't do that anyway or will do that wrong.
Seems strange that someone who games on Windows wouldn't update the one thing that could really change their experience. Especially since on Windows things like the Nvidia control panel actually tells you each time there's a new update.There is multiple problems with way you thinking. Unity3D it's middleware, the engine which target for extremely large audience so they have to be sure their engine working on any crappy laptop.
Unfortunately there is large list of problems with driver updates you don't know about:
- Some users just unable to update their drivers because they don't have admin account on Windows. It's can be work laptop within company workgroup for example.
- AMD mobility drivers fail to install 80% of times.
I even wrote multi-page how-to about updating this peace of crap:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/233250/discussions/2/558749190925676183/
Some laptops just not supported by official drivers!
- Intel allow vendors to deny usage of automatic EXE installer with "not validated for this computer" crap. Installing drivers from ZIP isn't f*ckig easy:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/233250/discussions/2/558749190911446231/
Even with detailed instruction many players might spend hour on update it and I doubt if someone's grandpa will able to do anything like that if he need to install some casual game.
- Windows 8 ship built-in drivers for AMD legacy GPUs and some Intel iGPUs that DO NOT HAVE OPENGL SUPPORT. For AMD you can't even replace them with one from official website, manual installation, again:
http://steamcommunity.com/app/233250/discussions/2/648817378357910399/
- On some rare laptops (many of them with Nvidia 3XXM) you just can't update drivers due to changed IDs. You have to patch BIOS to make update possible.
- This is just portion of issues...
And outdated drivers just don't work. They expose GL, but will crash all the time because there isn't really tested support around.
Not many people would be buying an actual graphics card not use Windows in-built drivers now would they?Unfortunately there is a lot of people who aren't as tech savvy as you. It's not OpenGL fault, but GPU vendor fault (especially AMD), but developers can't just reject this.
When it's come to games like PA where people paid their money for they'll going to complain and ask for help. If this was F2P title player who met such problem will just go and play another game.
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Liam, 26% of the windows systems are still windows XP, so no, people don't update their drivers, for the masses out there windows auto-update and a virus scanner is as far as they get, so I think he is right.
As for the rest of his comments, his lack of insight says enough I guess
As for the rest of his comments, his lack of insight says enough I guess
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Liam, 26% of the windows systems are still windows XP, so no, people don't update their drivers, for the masses out there windows auto-update and a virus scanner is as far as they get, so I think he is right.
As for the rest of his comments, his lack of insight says enough I guess
but we are talking about gamers.. probably 10 gamers in world use windows xp now a days.
facebook gamers dont count
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Liam, 26% of the windows systems are still windows XP, so no, people don't update their drivers, for the masses out there windows auto-update and a virus scanner is as far as they get, so I think he is right.but we are talking about gamers.. probably 10 gamers in world use windows xp now a days.
As for the rest of his comments, his lack of insight says enough I guess
facebook gamers dont count
Pretty much what I came here to say. I stand by my words, gamers generally know how to update drivers and most likely do.
As for Windows XP, you can update drivers on that, so just being on Windows XP means nothing other than not forking out for a new Windows license.
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facebook gamers dont countFacebook gamers it's big portion of Unity3D end-users.
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No, I've never updated my drivers on the windows. There is actually statistics about it that show that not many people update GPU drivers on Windows.
I'm updating them whole the time on the Linux since I have AMDs GPU and I'm desperate for performance improvements.
I'm updating them whole the time on the Linux since I have AMDs GPU and I'm desperate for performance improvements.
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Pretty much what I came here to say. I stand by my words, gamers generally know how to update drivers and most likely do.Liam, 26% of the windows systems are still windows XP, so no, people don't update their drivers, for the masses out there windows auto-update and a virus scanner is as far as they get, so I think he is right.but we are talking about gamers.. probably 10 gamers in world use windows xp now a days.
As for the rest of his comments, his lack of insight says enough I guess
facebook gamers dont count
As for Windows XP, you can update drivers on that, so just being on Windows XP means nothing other than not forking out for a new Windows license.
its not about you can't update drivers on XP, its about the fact people still use it and those same people really don't upgrade their drivers.
we not talking unreal engine here, we talking unity engine and big big share of that is casual gamers and casual games do not upgrade their drivers. We talking people who why a Dell or HP, turn it on and thats it, the Dell/HP software might patch a bit as will windows update, but they won't go to any Nvidia/ADM site and download the latest drivers.
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FutureSuture Jun 1, 2014
No, I've never updated my drivers on the windows. There is actually statistics about it that show that not many people update GPU drivers on Windows.Are you using the open source driver or the proprietary driver?
I'm updating them whole the time on the Linux since I have AMDs GPU and I'm desperate for performance improvements.
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Afaik, steam can also upgrade, or suggest updates, to your systems gpu.
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ThePartisan Jun 1, 2014
Afaik, steam can also upgrade, or suggest updates, to your systems gpu.Not under Linux.
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You're a power user, who updates. A significant portion of users are "not very good with computers" and do not update. Older drivers are very common.
The developer you are questioning the completence of works for Unity engine itself, not some random small game. Unity has direct contact with Nvidia, ATI, Intel and MESA and they probably 'share' some developers with Nvidia etc (the graphics card manufacturers send you experts to join your company, to help you to optimise your code on their hardware). They also get bug reports from studios using Unity.
If he says a significant number of people do not update, why should I not believe him?
The developer you are questioning the completence of works for Unity engine itself, not some random small game. Unity has direct contact with Nvidia, ATI, Intel and MESA and they probably 'share' some developers with Nvidia etc (the graphics card manufacturers send you experts to join your company, to help you to optimise your code on their hardware). They also get bug reports from studios using Unity.
If he says a significant number of people do not update, why should I not believe him?
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Afaik, steam can also upgrade, or suggest updates, to your systems gpu.This isn't working for laptops especially one with AMD.
PS: Other problem I forgot to notice about OpenGL games.
There is a lot of people who don't understand what hybrid graphics is.
They might even updating drivers, but only for AMD/Nvidia and not Intel because they don't even know what integrated graphics is or *THINKS* that every game using discrete graphics. As result many many games keep running on Intel graphics with drivers from 2011 which mean instant crash for OpenGL game. :><:
There is per-game profile for Nvidia Optimus and AMD Dual Graphics, but those mainly for AAA games only and most of indie games will never get such profile.
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ThePartisan Jun 1, 2014
There is a lot of people who don't understand what hybrid graphics is.
They might even updating drivers, but only for AMD/Nvidia and not Intel because they don't even know what integrated graphics is or *THINKS* that every game using discrete graphics. As result many many games keep running on Intel graphics with drivers from 2011 which mean instant crash for OpenGL game. :><:
There is per-game profile for Nvidia Optimus and AMD Dual Graphics, but those mainly for AAA games only and most of indie games will never get such profile.
Sometimes I think that hybrid graphics brought more problems than resolved :/
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Can you find some sites/blogs/etc. supporting OpenGL? I'm tired of seeing 1-sided arguments against OpenGL, especially from developers that have no idea how to really use it. Not all benchmarks are equal either, and it's often difficult to understand what they really mean or signify, even for the professionals. This sounds like the age-old argument of "Windows is better than Linux" by people that have little or no idea about Linux, and only a vague understanding of Windows (as if there's any other type of understanding of Windows). This is especially since Direct X has nothing to do with Linux. I would be surprised if this WASN'T another Microsoft campaign/attack against Linux and all things associated, perhaps greasing some of the wheels to run the way Microsoft wants.
But seriously, post lots of pro-OpenGL articles now, to even out the argument, from actual long-time Linux (if not Linux-ONLY) OpenGL developers.
But seriously, post lots of pro-OpenGL articles now, to even out the argument, from actual long-time Linux (if not Linux-ONLY) OpenGL developers.
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Yes I've had people in my circles that did not update their drivers until I had some program of mine that used OpenGL cross-compiled for windows they had to use. Then we discovered that the official drivers from Nvidia (with nvidia-settings) that come PRE-INSTALLED on a pc don't have OpenGL support! :><: :><: :><:
But when I install a newer version of the nvidia-driver from their site it DOES install openGL support, that's just ridiculous! why on earth does the manufacturer strip openGL support from the nvidia-driver package? isn't it just easier to install the full package and have ALL games working?
last time I wanted to play xonotic online with a friend, who had a new laptop, the game ran as slow as hell on his windows 8 machine, but it ran fine on my linux one.
I asked him which GPU he had in his laptop and he had an nvidia GT740M I had a 540M one so his pc should run faster, guess what? a driver update from nvidia added openGL support and from there on it finally was playable.....
But when I install a newer version of the nvidia-driver from their site it DOES install openGL support, that's just ridiculous! why on earth does the manufacturer strip openGL support from the nvidia-driver package? isn't it just easier to install the full package and have ALL games working?
last time I wanted to play xonotic online with a friend, who had a new laptop, the game ran as slow as hell on his windows 8 machine, but it ran fine on my linux one.
I asked him which GPU he had in his laptop and he had an nvidia GT740M I had a 540M one so his pc should run faster, guess what? a driver update from nvidia added openGL support and from there on it finally was playable.....
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