As usual, the wider media and people who like to generate clicky headlines like to claim Steam Machines are dead in the water. The truth is though, that it's not quite so simple.
First up is a nicely presented video from The Linux Gamer that's worth a watch:
Now onto my current thoughts on the matter.
Valve have recently hired new people to work on Mesa directly, which are our open source graphics drivers. We've already seen quite a bit of work done on Mesa thanks to Valve, like increased performance, supporting higher OpenGL versions and Vulkan support and this is set to continue.
Valve also only a few days ago released SteamVR in Beta for Linux, so in future a Steam Machine should work out of the box with the Vive headset.
Valve aren't stupid. They aren't about to stop developing Steam Machines. They are clearly still heavily invested in Linux to actually pay people to make our open source graphics drivers better. I imagine their business folks are keeping a very close eye on movements inside Microsoft for how their Windows Store will progress. That is still a very real threat to Steam, especially if more developers choose to release their games on it. In reality, any store is a threat to Valve, but one tied directly to the biggest operating system around in terms of use, Valve would be idiotic to move away from SteamOS and run off into the sunset with Microsoft.
Last year we saw the largest number of AAA/bigger budget games released on Linux, ever. We had Rocket League, Total War: WARHAMMER, XCOM 2, Tomb Raider, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, Mad Max and so on. That's only some of the major releases quickly off the top of my head, but we had tons of other high quality game releases last year too.
This year has already started extremely well for us with Civilization VI and HITMAN both already out and with DiRT Rally to follow soon. We then also have Torment: Tides of Numenera, Sudden Strike 4, Dungeons 3, Cossacks 3, Total War: SHOGUN 2 (not yet confirmed, but it looks likely) and probably many others.
Aside from games, we also have Vulkan which will see much greater traction this year. Vulkan will help to level out the performance difference for Linux vs Windows in terms of game performance. We've already seen what it can do for some games, but in time Vulkan should do better and better as developers learn more about the ins and outs of the newer API and the big games engines incorporate better support overall.
Part of the problem was that expectation was just too high, but I've always maintained that Steam Machines were never going to be an overnight success. The odds were heavily stacked against them, and yet they have still given Linux gaming plenty of wins with tons more games, better drivers, more users and so on. For those wondering about my "more users" comment, remember that the Steam Hardware Survey percentage for operating system use is a ratio, so even when the percentage drops the overall user count is probably higher due to Steam's constant growth in terms of overall user-base.
As for SteamOS itself, it will be a constant evolution that goes hand in hand with all the work Valve is doing on the Steam store directly. All the improvements they do to Steam do directly benefit SteamOS. Things like better searching tools, better recommendations, requiring developers to use proper in-game screenshots, the constant and ever improving Steam Controller (and proper config support for more gamepads) and so on. These are just some examples of things that perhaps people aren't thinking about in relation to SteamOS and Steam Machines.
Simply put, Steam Machines are not dead. Not selling like hot cakes, sure, but Valve are putting in a lot of effort behind the scenes that the wider media don't bother to look into. Why would they though? Since that wouldn't generate great headlines. Bad news sells, sad, but true.
Right now, I see SteamOS and Steam Machines as being on a temporary hiatus while Valve helps to sort out some of the inner workings to make sure future games actually work well. Progress has been good on that and I'm pretty damn happy with the way things are going right now and you should be too.
What are your current thoughts? Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
First up is a nicely presented video from The Linux Gamer that's worth a watch:
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Now onto my current thoughts on the matter.
Valve have recently hired new people to work on Mesa directly, which are our open source graphics drivers. We've already seen quite a bit of work done on Mesa thanks to Valve, like increased performance, supporting higher OpenGL versions and Vulkan support and this is set to continue.
Valve also only a few days ago released SteamVR in Beta for Linux, so in future a Steam Machine should work out of the box with the Vive headset.
Valve aren't stupid. They aren't about to stop developing Steam Machines. They are clearly still heavily invested in Linux to actually pay people to make our open source graphics drivers better. I imagine their business folks are keeping a very close eye on movements inside Microsoft for how their Windows Store will progress. That is still a very real threat to Steam, especially if more developers choose to release their games on it. In reality, any store is a threat to Valve, but one tied directly to the biggest operating system around in terms of use, Valve would be idiotic to move away from SteamOS and run off into the sunset with Microsoft.
Last year we saw the largest number of AAA/bigger budget games released on Linux, ever. We had Rocket League, Total War: WARHAMMER, XCOM 2, Tomb Raider, Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, Mad Max and so on. That's only some of the major releases quickly off the top of my head, but we had tons of other high quality game releases last year too.
This year has already started extremely well for us with Civilization VI and HITMAN both already out and with DiRT Rally to follow soon. We then also have Torment: Tides of Numenera, Sudden Strike 4, Dungeons 3, Cossacks 3, Total War: SHOGUN 2 (not yet confirmed, but it looks likely) and probably many others.
Aside from games, we also have Vulkan which will see much greater traction this year. Vulkan will help to level out the performance difference for Linux vs Windows in terms of game performance. We've already seen what it can do for some games, but in time Vulkan should do better and better as developers learn more about the ins and outs of the newer API and the big games engines incorporate better support overall.
Part of the problem was that expectation was just too high, but I've always maintained that Steam Machines were never going to be an overnight success. The odds were heavily stacked against them, and yet they have still given Linux gaming plenty of wins with tons more games, better drivers, more users and so on. For those wondering about my "more users" comment, remember that the Steam Hardware Survey percentage for operating system use is a ratio, so even when the percentage drops the overall user count is probably higher due to Steam's constant growth in terms of overall user-base.
As for SteamOS itself, it will be a constant evolution that goes hand in hand with all the work Valve is doing on the Steam store directly. All the improvements they do to Steam do directly benefit SteamOS. Things like better searching tools, better recommendations, requiring developers to use proper in-game screenshots, the constant and ever improving Steam Controller (and proper config support for more gamepads) and so on. These are just some examples of things that perhaps people aren't thinking about in relation to SteamOS and Steam Machines.
Simply put, Steam Machines are not dead. Not selling like hot cakes, sure, but Valve are putting in a lot of effort behind the scenes that the wider media don't bother to look into. Why would they though? Since that wouldn't generate great headlines. Bad news sells, sad, but true.
Right now, I see SteamOS and Steam Machines as being on a temporary hiatus while Valve helps to sort out some of the inner workings to make sure future games actually work well. Progress has been good on that and I'm pretty damn happy with the way things are going right now and you should be too.
What are your current thoughts? Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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qptain Nemo 27 Feb 2017
The real question we should be asking is the one we can't answer: Is Valve happy with the current success of Linux/SteamOS/Steam Machines? Because that's what really matters. Is everything going according to plan, and just how far is Valve willing to push this experiment? I have no idea. I hope they're in it for the long-haul, because I'd hate to see commercial gaming on Linux abandoned and have to return to Windows (shudder) or turn to console gaming exclusively.As far as I can see, everything Valve did was for the long haul and it's been working out for them just great. Would be strange of them to stop now, what with all that positive experience reaffirming their approach and everything. (Not to mention the neverending shitton of money they're getting regardless of the success state of SteamOS/Machines.)
1 Likes, Who?
We all know about Valve Time. It takes Valve many many years to get anything done, and they can afford to because they have a cash cow that brings in never ending money. SteamOS and Steam Machines were never going to be an overnight success simply because the drivers and tools situation was in such shoddy shape on Linux when Valve got the ball rolling. While Steam Machines are not exaclty setting any sales records right now, the driver and tools situation on Linux is in a much better state than it was a few years ago and we're getting games we couldn't have begun to dream about back then. Baby steps.
4 Likes, Who?
So tired of the Vulkan hype train. If games don't get ported properly and continue to use D3D wrappers nothing is going to change. Wake up OpenGL isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat for ignorance. Vulkan is not a magic bullet that suddenly makes gaming on Linux what it should be.
Don't get me wrong Vulkan is the future, it's just not adding anything that wasn't already there.
It's amazing the traction this has gotten.
Don't get me wrong Vulkan is the future, it's just not adding anything that wasn't already there.
It's amazing the traction this has gotten.
3 Likes, Who?
Torment: Tides of Numenera
It has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral. It was financed on Kickstarter and made on Unity3D engine.
Vulkan will help to level out the performance difference for Linux vs Windows in terms of game performance.
Native releases instead of crappy Feral ports: [1](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-windows-relperf), [2](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=pascal-win10-linux) will help us get even (please note the "Metro Last Light Redux" where the devs made the Linux version themselves). Why should I pay for twice more expensive hardware to get on par with Windows?
For those wondering about my "more users" comment, remember that the Steam Hardware Survey percentage for operating system use is a ratio, so even when the percentage drops the overall user count is probably higher due to Steam's constant growth in terms of overall user-base.
That's just pure rationalization. By that logic we can conclude that the number of Linux gamers grew solely because of the increasing number of humans on the Earth! That's true but hardly relevant to Valve's push. And the numbers show us the obvious: Linux became less represented on Steam and thus less appealing for developers.
Right now, I see SteamOS and Steam Machines as being on a temporary hiatus...
In my country we have a saying: "Nothing is more permanent than the temporary".
Last edited by Alm888 on 27 Feb 2017 at 5:59 am UTC
2 Likes, Who?
So tired of the Vulkan hype train. If games don't get ported properly and continue to use D3D wrappers nothing is going to change. Wake up OpenGL isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat for ignorance. Vulkan is not a magic bullet that suddenly makes gaming on Linux what it should be.
Don't get me wrong Vulkan is the future, it's just not adding anything that wasn't already there.
It's amazing the traction this has gotten.
The problem with your statement is that at this point we've only seen DX9/DX11 -> OGL wrappers. When Feral releases their first DX12 -> Vulkan wrapped game, then we can finally see if the hype is real or not.
0 Likes
GoLBuzzkill 27 Feb 2017
So tired of the Vulkan hype train. If games don't get ported properly and continue to use D3D wrappers nothing is going to change. Wake up OpenGL isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat for ignorance. Vulkan is not a magic bullet that suddenly makes gaming on Linux what it should be.
Don't get me wrong Vulkan is the future, it's just not adding anything that wasn't already there.
It's amazing the traction this has gotten.
Im saying this from when I tried first Linux "ports" and everybody is ignoring it.
99% of ports are garbage, they run bad, they dont use Linux APIS's as they should be used, they are unoptimized, they are using bunch of M$ technologies etc. If Linux is aftertought final product will be inferior to main target platforms, even if game runs perfectly on Linux 400 FPS avg, but 500 FPS on Windows or Consoles we lose, we need 500 FPS or 501 FPS to win, it is just that simple.
There is also Steam, you cant run a lot of games without Steam, Steam is bloatware and it isnt adjusted and optimized for Linux. When Valve decided to go with Linux first thing they needed to do is opensource as much of the Steam client as they can; so our community can fix things in couple of minutes that Valve idiots cant in years (systray icon comes to mind).
Steam machines (with SteamOS) are not dead because they never where alive. You need to compete on price and performance, AMD is good price wise but their drivers and support are shit, so if you want good hardware you need to go with Intel/Nvidia and now you lose price war. If you want to use Linux and Linux "ports" you get worse performance (if you want to compensate you need even more expensive hardware) and bunch of Linux related bugs. Steam machines with SteamOS are worst case scenario, you need to be an idiot to beleve in their success.
2 Likes, Who?
Vulkan will help to level out the performance difference for Linux vs Windows in terms of game performance.
Native releases instead of crappy Feral ports: [1](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-windows-relperf), [2](http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=pascal-win10-linux) will help us get even (please note the "Metro Last Light Redux" where the devs made the Linux version themselves). Why should I pay for twice more expensive hardware to get on par with Windows?
For those wondering about my "more users" comment, remember that the Steam Hardware Survey percentage for operating system use is a ratio, so even when the percentage drops the overall user count is probably higher due to Steam's constant growth in terms of overall user-base.
That's just pure rationalization. By that logic we can conclude that the number of Linux gamers grew solely because of the increasing number of humans on the Earth! That's true but hardly relevant to Valve's push. And the numbers show us the obvious: Linux became less represented on Steam and thus less appealing for developers.
In my country we have a saying: "Nothing is more permanent than the temporary".
Feral ports are native. I think what you meant is that we need games developed for Linux, not ported to Linux from another platform as an afterthought. It isn't about being on par with Windows, not for me. If I wanted to be on par with Windows I would be on Windows. It is about being able to play games I like on a platform I like, a platform that respects me as a user and that I actually have control over.
Every argument for everything is a rationalization. Steam is growing quickly and Linux use is growing also. Windows use just happens to be growing faster, which when you look at it from a total percentage makes it look as though Linux use is shrinking. If you want to know if Linux use is growing you would have to look at only the number of Linux users. Obviously we are a small market. Hopefully we will become a more appealing one as time goes by.
Obviously Steam Machines are not doing great right now. Doesn't surprise me as they aren't ready for mainstream. If at some point they become ready and Valve gives them a real push they could be great. Only time will tell.
2 Likes, Who?
Feral ports are native. I think what you meant is that we need games developed for Linux, not ported to Linux from another platform as an afterthought.
Yes, you are correct, of course.
It isn't about being on par with Windows, not for me. If I wanted to be on par with Windows I would be on Windows. It is about being able to play games I like on a platform I like, a platform that respects me as a user and that I actually have control over.
But it is for general gamer. We are talking about Linux expansion and for this we need to persuade Windows users (I, for one, do not know a Linux user who did not start on Windows -- that's just how our education system works: everyone gets his/her "first dose" of Windows in the elementary school up to the point that the majority does not know Linux exist at all). And your "average John Smith" has "middle-end" (how the middle can have an end? :-) ) cards like GeForce GTX 950(Ti)/1050(Ti), not monsters like dual "GTX 1080" ot "Titan". One can say "it runs great on my 1080" as much as (s)he wants, this will not help the cause.
Windows use just happens to be growing faster, which when you look at it from a total percentage makes it look as though Linux use is shrinking.
Exactly! And this is what matters during "business decision" time for game developers. They are aiming for the most profitable market segment and Linux is getting less and less appealing.
Hopefully we will become a more appealing one as time goes by.
This will not happen automatically without our involvement.
Valve will not guide us towards the brightest future. And definitely, it will not be Feral either (sometimes I am thinking we could be doing better without Feral and its "ports" as they are doing disservice in advertisement).
We need to take more direct approach: to reach out to developers, persuade them we matter and we are passionate, starting from the small ones from Kickstarter or "indie" developers (we have the weight there as was shown by Humble Bundles) and aggregate the "critical mass" up to the point where even AAA-devs will not be able to dismiss us.
Last edited by Alm888 on 27 Feb 2017 at 7:06 am UTC
2 Likes, Who?
So tired of the Vulkan hype train. If games don't get ported properly and continue to use D3D wrappers nothing is going to change. Wake up OpenGL isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat for ignorance. Vulkan is not a magic bullet that suddenly makes gaming on Linux what it should be.No offence, but you sound like someone who is parroting what I've seen others say without a) ever testing Vulkan and b) just not actually understanding any of the problems of OpenGL (we did have a recent editorial about this, maybe you missed it).
Don't get me wrong Vulkan is the future, it's just not adding anything that wasn't already there.
I've tested 3-4 games that are using Vulkan that I cannot name and I can say without a doubt their performance vs their OpenGL counterparts are much, much better. You don't need to take my word for it, as you will see for yourself at release. By now, I think I've proven myself enough that my word can be trusted.
I never said it did, I was talking about how healthy Linux gaming is. The fact still is most developers would still be ignoring Linux or would have stopped doing Linux versions by now if it wasn't for Steam.Torment: Tides of Numenera
It has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral. It was financed on Kickstarter and made on Unity3D engine.
I...don't think you understand how percentages work my friend. A very basic example: 0.8% of 100 million and 0.8% of 115 million is a different number, you know that right? A basic example, but it should make my point very clear.For those wondering about my "more users" comment, remember that the Steam Hardware Survey percentage for operating system use is a ratio, so even when the percentage drops the overall user count is probably higher due to Steam's constant growth in terms of overall user-base.
That's just pure rationalization. By that logic we can conclude that the number of Linux gamers grew solely because of the increasing number of humans on the Earth! That's true but hardly relevant to Valve's push. And the numbers show us the obvious: Linux became less represented on Steam and thus less appealing for developers.
You cannot wipe away my argument by using something outright idiotic like the amount of humans on Earth. Steam IS growing, every time Valve talk about it the number is significantly higher. If you choose to ignore that or try to wipe it away with an outright ludicrous argument then you just cannot be reasoned with.
A nice saying, but again, why on earth would Valve be continuing to invest in Linux including paying people to fix up our drivers if they weren't going to continue? It would be a massive waste of time and money for them.Right now, I see SteamOS and Steam Machines as being on a temporary hiatus...
In my country we have a saying: "Nothing is more permanent than the temporary".
Every argument for everything is a rationalization. Steam is growing quickly and Linux use is growing also. Windows use just happens to be growing faster, which when you look at it from a total percentage makes it look as though Linux use is shrinking. If you want to know if Linux use is growing you would have to look at only the number of Linux users. Obviously we are a small market. Hopefully we will become a more appealing one as time goes by.Thank the stars someone understands :)
@GoLBuzzkill's comment, with a username like that, why am I not surprised by your tone? :) Still, I don't disagree, you're right on a few points, but things are progressing on all fronts, especially the AMD driver situation.
Last edited by Liam Dawe on 27 Feb 2017 at 9:42 am UTC
4 Likes, Who?
I think Valve speculates that in 10 or 20 years everything is based on SteamOS. Also the PlayStation, Nintendo and the XBox. This sounds crazy, but is realistic. All these companies also want to make just money and to grow. With their current technologies they limit themselves.
Linux is already omnipresent in the areas of Cloud, IoT and mobile. Microsoft is today Platinum member in the Linux Foundation and carries more open sources than anybody else. The concept of open source has prevailed, just different than we thought.
In 20 years only dinosaurs like us will still use a desktop PC at home. I do not know if Steam Machines or SteamOS will spread as much as Android. Maybe Valve is not the right company for that. Perhaps not even Linux is the right technology and will be replaced by something else. But the basic idea which Valve has is exactly right. I really can not imagine that in 20 years gaming is still based on Windows PCs. Not even Microsoft believes this.
Valve apparently believes in its future as a gaming platform. Only time will show.
Last edited by 0aTT on 27 Feb 2017 at 9:43 am UTC
Linux is already omnipresent in the areas of Cloud, IoT and mobile. Microsoft is today Platinum member in the Linux Foundation and carries more open sources than anybody else. The concept of open source has prevailed, just different than we thought.
In 20 years only dinosaurs like us will still use a desktop PC at home. I do not know if Steam Machines or SteamOS will spread as much as Android. Maybe Valve is not the right company for that. Perhaps not even Linux is the right technology and will be replaced by something else. But the basic idea which Valve has is exactly right. I really can not imagine that in 20 years gaming is still based on Windows PCs. Not even Microsoft believes this.
Valve apparently believes in its future as a gaming platform. Only time will show.
Last edited by 0aTT on 27 Feb 2017 at 9:43 am UTC
3 Likes, Who?
I never said it did, I was talking about how healthy Linux gaming is.Torment: Tides of NumeneraIt has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral. It was financed on Kickstarter and made on Unity3D engine.
Yes, I agree, now we are in a better position than in the 2012 when all that Kickstarter movement began.
The fact still is most developers would still be ignoring Linux or would have stopped doing Linux versions by now if it wasn't for Steam.
And that's where we diverge. Current improvement has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral.
The reasons are:
1) We showed our strength at Humble Bundles in the 2010;
2) We were heard by "inXile", "Harebrained Schemes", "Double Fine" at Kickstarter in 2012. Even the projects that utterly failed ("The Banner Saga" ) helped us in the end;
3) In order to win inXile's contract (and many others, like "Dreamfall Chapters", "Pillars of Eternity" etc.) Unity3D devs hastily ported their engine to Linux which became a turning point for us as it enabled game developers to create a lot of high-profile Day-1 releases.
And Valve... well, "Faster Zombies", the proven feign swing towards Microsoft used as the leverage in Valve's bargain on "Microsoft Store".
Feral? Lots of un-optimized ports of three-year-old games requiring top-of-the-line hardware in order to run acceptably.
I...don't think you understand how percentages work my friend. A very basic example: 0.8% of 100 million and 0.8% of 115 million is a different number, you know that right? A basic example, but it should make my point very clear.
No thank you, I've got my university education and I am well aware that 0.2% from 1 million is better than 10% from 10000. But it does not change the fact that Linux share is shrinking relative to other OS-es. By the time Linux gained additional 10000 users Windows secured another million, if
You cannot wipe away my argument by using something outright idiotic like the amount of humans on Earth. Steam IS growing, every time Valve talk about it the number is significantly higher. If you choose to ignore that or try to wipe it away with an outright ludicrous argument then you just cannot be reasoned with.
Truth can not be idiotic. Increase in population automatically means increase in Linux users as well. But let's speak numbers. By the October of 2013 there were 65mil. of active Steam users. Among them were (assuming "Other" is Linux, which is debatable):
Ubuntu 13.10 64 bit 0,15%
Ubuntu 13.04 64 bit 0,35%
Ubuntu 13.04 0,09%
Ubuntu 12.04.3 LTS 64 bit 0,18%
Ubuntu 12.04.3 LTS 0,08%
Linux Mint 15 Olivia 64 bit 0,11%
Linux 64 bit 0,10%
Other 0,66%
--------------------
Total:
1,72%(with "Other" )
1,06%(without "Other" )
Which gives us somewhere between 689k and 1118k of Linux users. I can not find the data for total number of users for 2016 but if we get the 7mil. of concurrent users in 2013 and extrapolate the proportion to 13,1mil. in 5th of November, 2016, we get approx. of 122mil. of total users. So, if the percentage stayed the same, we could get somewhere between 1,29mil and 2,09mil. of Linux users. But instead we got only 1,07mil (0,88%).
Yes, Linux user base grew, but slower than expected. It only got, like, 381k users while Windows got another 54,5mil. of customers (from 94,71% to 95,40%).
So, how is that for the absolute numbers you are advocating so much? I dunno... 0,38mil vs. 54,5mil. of absolute growth...
...why on earth would Valve be continuing to invest in Linux including paying people to fix up our drivers if they weren't going to continue? It would be a massive waste of time and money for them.
Well... maybe for the same purpose it used it for "Faster Zombies" argument? Valve will keep it on "life support" as long as it helps them keep Microsoft in check. It is called "contingency plan", not "waste of money".
But that does not mean Valve will come and save us all and make right everything that was wrong.
We must act ourselves, not wait for some Messiah to bring us the "Age of Linux Gaming".
2 Likes, Who?
I still stand by what I say, if it wasn't for Valve most if not all companies would have likely stopped doing Linux versions by now.The fact still is most developers would still be ignoring Linux or would have stopped doing Linux versions by now if it wasn't for Steam.
And that's where we diverge. Current improvement has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral.
The reasons are:
1) We showed our strength at Humble Bundles in the 2010;
2) We were heard by "inXile", "Harebrained Schemes", "Double Fine" at Kickstarter in 2012. Even the projects that utterly failed ("The Banner Saga" ) helped us in the end;
3) In order to win inXile's contract (and many others, like "Dreamfall Chapters", "Pillars of Eternity" etc.) Unity3D devs hastily ported their engine to Linux which became a turning point for us as it enabled game developers to create a lot of high-profile Day-1 releases.
And Valve... well, "Faster Zombies", the proven feign swing towards Microsoft used as the leverage in Valve's bargain on "Microsoft Store".
Feral? Lots of un-optimized ports of three-year-old games requiring top-of-the-line hardware in order to run acceptably.
Sales from Humble Bundle to Linux gradually dropped lower. Look at say HIB1 where Linux was $317K to HIBX where Linux was $123K. Humble didn't show anything other than initially showing there was a small market for Linux. Valve, however, continue to actually invest in Linux.
As for Feral ports, people like to claim lots of things about their ports, yet I've seen plenty of people on pretty rubbish hardware massively enjoying their ports. You just seem to be one of the people who choose to repeatedly trash-talk them.
As for your random statistics there, you're guessing as much as anyone. No one has any really decent numbers on it. Even with your guesstimate, 300K+ extra people possibly buying Linux games is nothing to turn your nose up at.
I'm not claiming anything about Valve being our absolute messiah here, let's not kid ourselves or put words in my mouth. I'm simply saying things are good, better than they have ever been and it's set to continue. It's not going to suddenly die-off like some people like to think and claim.
0 Likes
I never said it did, I was talking about how healthy Linux gaming is.Torment: Tides of NumeneraIt has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral. It was financed on Kickstarter and made on Unity3D engine.
Yes, I agree, now we are in a better position than in the 2012 when all that Kickstarter movement began.
The fact still is most developers would still be ignoring Linux or would have stopped doing Linux versions by now if it wasn't for Steam.
And that's where we diverge. Current improvement has nothing to do with either Valve or Feral.
The reasons are:
1) We showed our strength at Humble Bundles in the 2010;
2) We were heard by "inXile", "Harebrained Schemes", "Double Fine" at Kickstarter in 2012. Even the projects that utterly failed ("The Banner Saga" ) helped us in the end;
3) In order to win inXile's contract (and many others, like "Dreamfall Chapters", "Pillars of Eternity" etc.) Unity3D devs hastily ported their engine to Linux which became a turning point for us as it enabled game developers to create a lot of high-profile Day-1 releases.
And Valve... well, "Faster Zombies", the proven feign swing towards Microsoft used as the leverage in Valve's bargain on "Microsoft Store".
Feral? Lots of un-optimized ports of three-year-old games requiring top-of-the-line hardware in order to run acceptably.
I...don't think you understand how percentages work my friend. A very basic example: 0.8% of 100 million and 0.8% of 115 million is a different number, you know that right? A basic example, but it should make my point very clear.
No thank you, I've got my university education and I am well aware that 0.2% from 1 million is better than 10% from 10000. But it does not change the fact that Linux share is shrinking relative to other OS-es. By the time Linux gained additional 10000 users Windows secured another million, if
You cannot wipe away my argument by using something outright idiotic like the amount of humans on Earth. Steam IS growing, every time Valve talk about it the number is significantly higher. If you choose to ignore that or try to wipe it away with an outright ludicrous argument then you just cannot be reasoned with.
Truth can not be idiotic. Increase in population automatically means increase in Linux users as well. But let's speak numbers. By the October of 2013 there were 65mil. of active Steam users. Among them were (assuming "Other" is Linux, which is debatable):
Ubuntu 13.10 64 bit 0,15%
Ubuntu 13.04 64 bit 0,35%
Ubuntu 13.04 0,09%
Ubuntu 12.04.3 LTS 64 bit 0,18%
Ubuntu 12.04.3 LTS 0,08%
Linux Mint 15 Olivia 64 bit 0,11%
Linux 64 bit 0,10%
Other 0,66%
--------------------
Total:
1,72%(with "Other" )
1,06%(without "Other" )
Which gives us somewhere between 689k and 1118k of Linux users. I can not find the data for total number of users for 2016 but if we get the 7mil. of concurrent users in 2013 and extrapolate the proportion to 13,1mil. in 5th of November, 2016, we get approx. of 122mil. of total users. So, if the percentage stayed the same, we could get somewhere between 1,29mil and 2,09mil. of Linux users. But instead we got only 1,07mil (0,88%).
Yes, Linux user base grew, but slower than expected. It only got, like, 381k users while Windows got another 54,5mil. of customers (from 94,71% to 95,40%).
So, how is that for the absolute numbers you are advocating so much? I dunno... 0,38mil vs. 54,5mil. of absolute growth...
...why on earth would Valve be continuing to invest in Linux including paying people to fix up our drivers if they weren't going to continue? It would be a massive waste of time and money for them.
Well... maybe for the same purpose it used it for "Faster Zombies" argument? Valve will keep it on "life support" as long as it helps them keep Microsoft in check. It is called "contingency plan", not "waste of money".
But that does not mean Valve will come and save us all and make right everything that was wrong.
We must act ourselves, not wait for some Messiah to bring us the "Age of Linux Gaming".
Ahh,i remembered you.You are the guy who thinks SteamOS is not Linux.
If you're doing all compares with Windows,then we must ditch Linux.
You're expecting these millions of users of Windows to migrate Linux,you're very wrong.First of all,most of these users are don't know the existence of Linux.Second,they barely learned Windows which they are using for years.They can't stand a week in Linux,not because Linux is hard.Linux is pretty easy actually but you all you need to is getting used to it but they can't.Because most of them literally thick skulled.
Second thing is,Steam Survey is false.I have done so many Linux installations to many computers and set them with "must have" programs.Like Steam.And every time i do this i only confronted two Surveys out of twenty machine.
Also i know Windows and some people asking me for a help for Windows.I did so many formats etc. and every single time we installed Steam,every time that fucking Survey pops up.Every time.
I think there is some shit going on with Survey,that can't be a coincidence.
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I still stand by what I say, if it wasn't for Valve most if not all companies would have likely stopped doing Linux versions by now.
Sales from Humble Bundle to Linux gradually dropped lower. Look at say HIB1 where Linux was $317K to HIBX where Linux was $123K.
Well, to "pay you with your own coin": as you can see [here](http://cheesetalks.net/humble/) over the time the absolute number of Linux customers raised, not fell (starting from 22k and towards 41k by the "HIB V" ).
Humble didn't show anything other than initially showing there was a small market for Linux.
Humble showed faith in Linux when Valve had dismissed it as insignificant. If it was not for HIBs, we could be still arguing over "1%" which now obviously untrue to everybody. Yet, you somehow praising Valve. Please, give the credit where it is due! (It is a pity HB degraded into simple Steam-keys reseller).
As for Feral ports, people like to claim lots of things about their ports, yet I've seen plenty of people on pretty rubbish hardware massively enjoying their ports. You just seem to be one of the people who choose to repeatedly trash-talk them.
And lots of people who complaining about poor performance. Individual perception is subjective by definition. But hard numbers measured by Phoronix are (hopefully) objective.
I do not hate Feral or other porters. In fact, I myself enjoyed a lot of ports made by Timothee Besset, Ryan C. Gordon, Ethan Lee, Aaron Melcher and others (mostly for Humble titles).
I personally am not invested in any of Feral-ports (in fact, I do not even using Steam and Feral does not publish outside of Steam) so I'm judging only based on what resources like Phoronix or YouTube users provide. As are the majority of Windows users who are considering switching to Linux.
I know, you are in good terms with Feral, constantly chatting and lifestreaming with them and that's great that they are nice and communicative guys and gals who are eager to stay in touch with the community. So, please, do not take my criticism personally. It is just the objective data that highlights overall inferiority of their ports. It would be great to be not the case but alas, we have what we have.
The only way to get a Linux version at 100%+ of Windows performance is to work directly with developers and persuade them to build their games with Linux in mind from the ground-zero. And that's my point by which I stand.
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The only way to get a Linux version at 100%+ of Windows performance is to work directly with developers and persuade them to build their games with Linux in mind from the ground-zero. And that's my point by which I stand.
The unfortunate thing is that they won't be willing to put the money into the meagre amount of potential extra sales (don't look at absolute numbers, those are deceiving, look at percentages).
Nobody is willing to put in 10% more funds to get a potential 1% more sales. And we come back in our vicious circle (not enough platform selling games -> not many people want to switch -> not many devs want to port their games -> not enough platform selling games).
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Ahh,i remembered you. You are the guy who thinks SteamOS is not Linux.
Well, that's probably me, yes. :-) With one correction: while SteamOS is Linux (for now, at least), Linux is not SteamOS.
If you're doing all compares with Windows,then we must ditch Linux.
??? Ah! You probably have meant "comparisons". No, I do not agitate for Windows. On the contrary, in fact. But let's not self-delude ourselves. We need a clear view of where we are, our strengths and weaknesses in order to use the former and eliminate the latter. It is no point to tell "performance is fine" and "works for me" to ourselves while it is clearly not the case.
You're expecting these millions of users of Windows to migrate Linux,...
In fact, yes, I am. I dare to ask what are the other alternatives to gain more Linux users? Shall we... breed?
...you're very wrong.
We shall see...
First of all, most of these users are don't know the existence of Linux.
Are you telling this to me? Seriously? Well, I myself described the situation in our education system on the previous page here, so rest assured, I am well aware.
Second thing is,Steam Survey is false.I have done so many Linux installations to many computers and set them with "must have" programs.Like Steam.And every time i do this i only confronted two Surveys out of twenty machine.
Just twenty? That's hardy the pool of measurements for analysis. In the case of Steam we are talking about millions of surveys.
Also i know Windows and some people asking me for a help for Windows.I did so many formats etc. and every single time we installed Steam,every time that fucking Survey pops up.Every time.
You can consider yourself lucky! One time i threw game dice and managed to get even numbers 29 times of 30. That's how real random numbers work.
I think there is some shit going on with Survey,that can't be a coincidence.
Please! Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. And Valve has no motive to garble the results against its own "Steam for Linux". What's the point?! All those rumors are just pure speculation without substance.
The unfortunate thing is that they won't be willing to put the money into the meager amount of potential extra sales (don't look at absolute numbers, those are deceiving, look at percentages).
Nobody is willing to put in 10% more funds to get a potential 1% more sales. And we come back in our vicious circle (not enough platform selling games -> not many people want to switch -> not many devs want to port their games -> not enough platform selling games).
You should probably tell this to Liam, not me.
But let's stay positive! While the big AAA-devs are gonna dismiss us, it is not the case with "indies" and Kickstarter projects. After all, money invested early, when the team desperately needs to build at least semi-working Alpha for conference, are 10 times more valuable to the project than money from the "Steam Sale". And we are willing to go twice the distance than Windows users who can just go to Steam and get a game for their tastes without any risk.
Last edited by Alm888 on 27 Feb 2017 at 12:58 pm UTC
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Well, to "pay you with your own coin": as you can see here over the time the absolute number of Linux customers raised, not fell (starting from 22k and towards 41k by the "HIB V" ).Try looking at later graphs, Linux drops, by a fair bit too. And yes, I realize I am arguing against my own points of Linux gaming being storng, but I want to give a clear picture here. This is Humble Bundle and not the topic at hand: Steam/SteamOS/Steam Machines.
Humble Bundle may have done a small push with a few small indie games, but they didn't really push the platform forward at all. All they did was continue the race to the bottom for indie developers finances with cheap bundles, now they hardly ever do them.
And lots of people who complaining about poor performance.No, there's a few loud people. You don't get a good idea of how people feel based on a minority of a few people bashing ports. If they weren't performing well enough for the majority to be happy enough to continue buying ports, these porting houses would have stopped porting by now.
Feel free to keep arguing, but I don't see a point in continuing it on with you. We have obviously very opposing views here and I do have other work to do :)
I tend to stay positive, look at the good things we have going on and you seem to do the opposite, you're not who I serve it seems and that's perfectly fine, everyone has their opinion. I am just surprised by the absolutely determined pessimistic attitudes by some, it makes me wonder why they visit if only to downplay our progress, it's strange. :)
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Humble Bundle may have done a small push with a few small indie games, but they didn't really push the platform forward at all.
They pushed the system out of its cursed equilibrium and that's what matters the most.
All they did was continue the race to the bottom for indie developers finances with cheap bundles, now they hardly ever do them.
Those "indie developers" were quite happy to play along. Up to the point of Tommy Refenes eating his words of "Linux can f*ck off for all I care". Anyway, you are right, it has nothing to do with Steam Machines' flop.
No, there's a few loud people. You don't get a good idea of how people feel based on a minority of a few people bashing ports.
Here is another proverb: "There is no smoke without fire". If we are getting a constant inflow of negative port responses then something is definitely off there.
If they weren't performing well enough for the majority to be happy enough to continue buying ports, these porting houses would have stopped porting by now.
Well enough to be profitable? Probably true. Well enough for the majority? That's just pure speculation without the "number of buyers to total number of Linux users" ratio.
I am just surprised by the absolutely determined pessimistic attitudes by some, it makes me wonder why they visit if only to downplay our progress, it's strange. :)
No one's negative or pessimistic here! We just did not agree on the cause of said progress.
Feel free to keep arguing, but I don't see a point in continuing it on with you. We have obviously very opposing views here and I do have other work to do :)
Yes, articles won't write themselves! I feel I already wasted enough of your time. Thank you! ;)
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Perhaps I just got the wrong idea of you from your previous posts then, hard to tell someone's tone through text :)I am just surprised by the absolutely determined pessimistic attitudes by some, it makes me wonder why they visit if only to downplay our progress, it's strange. :)
No one's negative or pessimistic here! We just did not agree on the cause of said progress.
*insert coffee here*Feel free to keep arguing, but I don't see a point in continuing it on with you. We have obviously very opposing views here and I do have other work to do :)
Yes, articles won't write themselves! I feel I already wasted enough of your time. Thank you! ;)
Last edited by Liam Dawe on 27 Feb 2017 at 2:11 pm UTC
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The only steam machines available in the Netherlands are the alienware and the zotac.
All others need to be imported, and the only other vendor was a french one of which I can't decode the language.
The alienware is dirty cheap as a cheap linux low-noise desktop. To be clear: In order to run steamos it needs to be linux compatible, so an alienware steam machine is a pretty decent and cheap choice if you need a working desktop.
If you need more horsepower the only choice here is the zotac, which performs quite well as my gaming rig, freeing up my intel pc for video transcoding. (My real desktop is an odroid XU4....).
So to me they are not really dead.
All others need to be imported, and the only other vendor was a french one of which I can't decode the language.
The alienware is dirty cheap as a cheap linux low-noise desktop. To be clear: In order to run steamos it needs to be linux compatible, so an alienware steam machine is a pretty decent and cheap choice if you need a working desktop.
If you need more horsepower the only choice here is the zotac, which performs quite well as my gaming rig, freeing up my intel pc for video transcoding. (My real desktop is an odroid XU4....).
So to me they are not really dead.
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