Keith Packard's video from 'LinuxConfAu 2018' talking about Virtual Reality and Linux is up

Quoting: beniwtvThat's not a fact. Did you try the new wireless Vive Pro yet to know how heavy it really is? What about all these new battery technologies that make them very light that are being developed as we speak? What about other future developments? Remember - computers used to be the size of a house!

Again, Moore's Law. It has been disproved. There is a natural limit to how small things can be.
But it doesn't matter, my main point is, it will always weigh more than nothing and will always require you to put something on top of your head. Which will always be more than putting nothing on your head.
Big breakthroughs and replacements of current tech are only established if something is LESS cumbersome, not more cumbersome. See cars, smartphones, etc.
Getting into VR will always be more cumbersome than just looking at a screen.

Quoting: beniwtvAgain, that is not a fact - but your opinion. Plenty of people that played VR vs non-VR disagree with you here, and find the experience way better, including gameplay-wise. There's some cool things you can to with the VR controllers - specially the Occulus Rift ones - that aren't possible (or more cumbersome) with your keyboard and mouse. Like moving fingers, picking things up, moving / rotating them around, etc...

There seems to be a confusion here about what gameplay is. I might have misused the term, or you did, or it is just one of those terms that are too broad.
What I meant was NOT controls (which is what you describe), but game mechanics. AI, player motivation, short/mid/long-term goals, basic game mechanics, various calculations, etc. All of these need to work regardless of how the player views or controls it all.
Again, look at games like EUIV, StarCraft, Sonic, etc. Being in VR changes nothing about how those games work, therefore it cannot improve them on that level. That is not an opinion.
Neither is it an opinion that extra effort is required by developers of those games for very little gain.

Quoting: beniwtvYes, you need a bit of space to take full advantage of VR, which is a fact well pointed out. I barely have space, but I'll make sure to have space when moving into a new house. But here you're assuming again that people don't have space and don't want to make space, which honestly, again is your opinion.

An own house?
How nice for you. Too bad the majority of people live in (rather small) flats in cities...

And how many people exactly do you think are willing to make the space for VR? Except for gamers/enthusiasts?
Again, remember this is supposedly the "future way people will view/experience things", replacing normal screens and monitors. Nobody has given any point as to why the average person should care. And the average person is very much required for anything to be "the future".

Quoting: beniwtvAgain, your opinion. You assume everyone wants to have other things running while playing VR, or hates not being able to interact with the world around them while playing. And honestly, grabbing a drink you can still do when taking a break while playing...

It is simply a fact of life for the majority of people that you cannot really be in your own sphere for large amounts of time. People have families, jobs, responsibilities. Most people I know are happy if they can find one day on the weekend they can spend with their hobby. The rest of the time, they can maybe spend time with their hobby while also having to be somewhat involved in other things.
Only few can afford that VR kind of isolation often. And for something that can only be done rarely, why would you spend the cash?
Anything that wants to be a truly big deal (see above) just cannot be that situational. This is not an opinion.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWrong. Calling people for what they are behaving like is simply the truth and I will continue to do so. If you think me short-sighted, call me out on it, I'll gladly disprove that.
Let's not get to the kindergarden level of "let's all say nice things only", please. That doesn't lead anywhere useful. I rather have people speak their mind than trying to be nice for the mere sake of being nice.

Quoting: beniwtvWhoa! If you don't want to have a civilized discussion, but instead insult people, then let's just stop right here. Because THAT really doesn't lead to anything useful.

If you think that civilized means holding back because someone's feelings could get hurt and nicety for the sake of nicety, then I can only fully disagree.
For me, that sounds like kindergarden, not a discussion among adults. Sometimes, steam must be vented, and I am rather a willing target of that than to try and force others to hold back what they truly think. Nor will I let others hold me back, it's not like I frothingly throw tantrums around ;)
If we all did your form of civilized, we would live in a society of mutes, because everything that could be said, could hurt someone. Better to let things out and allow people to grow in the face of adversity.

I was always more of a Klingon, really. What can I say? Deal with it.
Or ignore me. I do not care too much, either way.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPBut it doesn't matter, my main point is, it will always weigh more than nothing and will always require you to put something on top of your head. Which will always be more than putting nothing on your head.
Big breakthroughs and replacements of current tech are only established if something is LESS cumbersome, not more cumbersome. See cars, smartphones, etc.

Yeah, that's why people replaced their little Nokias with big Smartphones. Oh, wait...

I hear you say "But these do way more!"
Yes, just like VR devices.
It doesn't matter how much it weighs if it's worth the weight.


Last edited by Eike on 30 January 2018 at 2:18 pm UTC

Quoting: scaineWeird - you still think this is an argument. Like you're "right" and we're all "wrong". If I don't like olives, do you really think you can argue my position on them? That you can argue their case and I'll be like "Woah, you're right! I need to eat more of these delicious olives! I've been wasting my life not eating them!".

I like olives.
Other than that, the "metaphor"/example didn't really work.

Quoting: scaineMove on. I'm excited by the notion that I can play VR on Linux. Really excited, because I've tried it on Windows and it was (for me) an incredible, game-changing (literally) experience. You're not. That's all there is to it. Your "facts" don't matter to me, clearly, since I've tried it and still love it, right? (Sorry - didn't read any of the rest of your post/facts, since... well, why bother?)

I couldn't care less if you love it or not.
If you still think that this is what I'm arguing, you have fully failed to get what I'm saying.

What I care about is the claim that this tech with limited use-cases is THE FUTURE. The thing that will finally replace those monitors, mice, ...
Because that is just incredibly unlikely, for all of the reasons I wrote above. And probably more.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIf you think that civilized means holding back because someone's feelings could get hurt and nicety for the sake of nicety, then I can only fully disagree.

"it is you being the sheep" is not a feeling.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWhat I care about is the claim that this tech with limited use-cases is THE FUTURE.

Who said that, apart from yourself?

There weren't many postings before you writing about THE FUTURE, and none of them claimed anything like this.


Last edited by Eike on 30 January 2018 at 2:19 pm UTC

Quoting: EikeYeah, that's why people replaced their little Nokias with big Smartphones. Oh, wait...

I hear you say "But these do way more!"
Yes, just like VR devices.

Not a valid comparison.
Smartphones are carried around just like old Nokias. They are bigger, but still fit in pockets, jackets, etc.
I had/have both, there really isn't much of a difference.

And those that really are too big simply don't sell much - or are tablets, which is a completely different thing altogether.

But here, we are talking about something that supposedly replaces monitors at some future point in time.
Which, again - for all the reasons I wrote above and more - is just very unlikely.

Have this situation, outside of gaming:
A team of marine biologists are on the ocean, letting their mini-robot into the depths to do some research.
The drone is piloted by one of them - via VR (a good use case, I'd say).
The others are not sitting by idly. They are analyzing the data that is gathered live by the drone and also watch the live images (cause it's interesting!).
How will they do all of that at once? All sitting in their chairs, having VR-headsets on, using their VR-Excels and VR-Browsers? :lol:
Probably not. They will be in front of their own monitors, analyzing, while also looking at the big one that displays what the pilot is seeing (and possibly more).

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWhat I care about is the claim that this tech with limited use-cases is THE FUTURE.

Who said that, apart from yourself?

Not too many here, actually.
I just made that point as it comes up time and time again in too hype-y articles, discussions, etc.

Some of the people here just saw their big hobby attacked by me calling it a gimmick and jumped in its defense, going all "you're just a negative nancy, mememe" on me for daring to have some points (none of which have ever been disproved, btw) that do not exactly speak in favor of VR ever becoming a really big thing.

I don't actually care too much about VR, funny enough.
Calling people out on their BS is a hobby of mine, though, if you were about to ask about why I'm still doing this.
I'm actually having a good time.


Last edited by TheSHEEEP on 30 January 2018 at 2:30 pm UTC

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: EikeYeah, that's why people replaced their little Nokias with big Smartphones. Oh, wait...

I hear you say "But these do way more!"
Yes, just like VR devices.

Not a valid comparison.

Then why did you bring it up?

(BTW, smartphones did get larger the last years. iPhone (1): 3,5″, iPhone 8(+): 4,7″/5.5", iPhone X: 5.8".)

It's bit shame that video shows some cool stuff in it, but discussion deteriorated quite quickly to situation where people argue if apples are better than oranges. Even Linux game market is big enough to have games for VR early adopters and people who couldn't care less about VR. It doesn't matter if VR will eventually replace displays or not.

But even now, there's some cool stuff coming out because people are working to get VR working properly on Linux. Basically that was something that simplifies sharing displays on multi-seat setup much easier.

If I'm able to explain it correctly, it's way to lease the display to a program that wants exclusive (but still revocable) access for a display, while making sure that client doesn't have access to the clients running on the real X server. X server or kernel can revoke the access at any time and control comes back to the X server without any disastrous issues.

And no, there was no discussion about forking Xorg or Linux kernel, I think most of the changes are already upstream. Last thing that glues everything together was still worked on, so maybe not that yet.

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: EikeYeah, that's why people replaced their little Nokias with big Smartphones. Oh, wait...

I hear you say "But these do way more!"
Yes, just like VR devices.

Not a valid comparison.

Then why did you bring it up?

As an example of a technology that spread widely because they made people's lives easier and are less cumbersome than what came before.
Of course an average smartphone is bigger than an old Nokia. But it does not only replace that Nokia, it also replaces (at least partly) having to carry a laptop around. Or accessing your emails at home, doing onlinebanking, etc.
Do I really need to tell you that or are you just desperately trying to prove me wrong in something?

I don't see where a VR device offers that much more functionality than a monitor + controller/mouse. For gaming, or generally anything where being "inside the first person" has an advantage, sure. But that's just a small fraction of things that classical monitors cover.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPAgain, Moore's Law. It has been disproved. There is a natural limit to how small things can be. But it doesn't matter, my main point is, it will always weigh more than nothing and will always require you to put something on top of your head. Which will always be more than putting nothing on your head.

In that sense I understand now. Yep, it will be more cumbersome than just looking at a screen, and of course more heavy than putting nothing on. If we could just walk into a Holodeck like in Star Trek, that would be awesome, but technology isn't there yet.

Many view VR in this regard like kind of a stepping stone in that direction - and it's what we can do right now with technology. It IS more cumbersome, but honestly - not very much. It takes about 2-3 seconds to put the headset on / take it off, and it becomes second nature very quick. Much like using a joystick for the first time when you've been using a mouse for decades.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThere seems to be a confusion here about what gameplay is. I might have misused the term, or you did, or it is just one of those terms that are too broad.
What I meant was NOT controls (which is what you describe), but game mechanics.

Understood, but do game *mechanics* need to change for VR to be useful? If so, why? And more importantly, what mechanics would you love to see changed and how? You already get more immersion, and better controls, while still having the same game mechanics (albeit controlled differently).

And some of the VR controls are very much game mechanic related, or change them - like peeking around a corner with your whole body just enough to see, instead of pressing the "v" key and having not much control over the procedure.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPAn own house?
How nice for you. Too bad the majority of people live in (rather small) flats in cities...

And how many people exactly do you think are willing to make the space for VR? Except for gamers/enthusiasts?
Again, remember this is supposedly the "future way people will view/experience things", replacing normal screens and monitors. Nobody has given any point as to why the average person should care. And the average person is very much required for anything to be "the future".

I don't think anyone ever said VR is going to replace screens and mice, or be the big hit for the average non-gamer/enthusiast person. The average people these days doesn't care about computers, let alone computer screens. I can't see a scenario that requires my spreadsheets or code to be flying around me in virtual space, but I am happy to be proven wrong one day. Heck, not even in Star Trek that was done.

But for gamers/enthusiasts, it's a very different story - and that is what people are hyped about. That it works on Linux is even more incredible, thanks to all the people hyped about it.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIt is simply a fact of life for the majority of people that you cannot really be in your own sphere for large amounts of time. People have families, jobs, responsibilities. Most people I know are happy if they can find one day on the weekend they can spend with their hobby. The rest of the time, they can maybe spend time with their hobby while also having to be somewhat involved in other things.
Only few can afford that VR kind of isolation often. And for something that can only be done rarely, why would you spend the cash?
Anything that wants to be a truly big deal (see above) just cannot be that situational. This is not an opinion.

And here's the thing. People spend much money on hobbies they may not get often to doing.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPIf we all did your form of civilized, we would live in a society of mutes, because everything that could be said, could hurt someone. Better to let things out and allow people to grow in the face of adversity.

Speaking your mind isn't the same as insulting people. The first is OK, the later isn't.