Ion Maiden to officially launch in Q2 2019, new screenshots and another unannounced FPS is teased

Quake engine has linux support so no biggie. oh, if they use VKquake they can take advantage of vulkan.

It might be better for them _not_ to use Vulkan though. This is the sort of game that won't be hitting graphics bottlenecks (probably), and they might want to include older machines, or those platforms that don't have Vulkan drivers. Sticking to an OpenGL backend makes more sense in those cases, and gives them a wider audience.

I agree.
Games with retro graphics must work on retro machines with retro operative systems.

I don't think using Vulkan engine is an issue. Supporting retro hardware is an extra effort (for one, they'd need to test on it for example so they need actual hardware). Just because they are using a retro style engine doesn't mean they need to support retro computers.

For example, I won't appreciate if they'll make the release 32-bit because of it (Ion Maiden is 64-bit if I remember correctly, so that already makes it unusable on the old 32-bit computers).


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 Oct 2018 at 4:15 pm UTC

Now I am really confused, wasn't the talk about Vulkan about the Quake engine project? But then Ion Maiden's system requirements were bought in to the discussion?

Ion Maiden uses [EDuke32](http://eduke32.com/) and with it the Polymost OpenGL renderer. Originally created by Ken Silverman, the Build engine's creator.

The way I read it, the discussion was about using old technology for retro games. The "high" specs of Ion Maiden were just used as an example for the global discussion.

If you ask me, retro games can perfectly be made with new technology. Retro is about imitating or being inspired by the past.

I agree.
Games with retro graphics must work on retro machines with retro operative systems.

Like.. watching retro movies on retro-VHS recorders? :) What the hell is a retro operative system anyway? :D

Retro means the game seems old, but actually isn't.

Hell, even the EDuke32 engine of Ion Maiden is a newer modified Build engine.

Faalhaas, I guess my confusion stems from the first post mentioning Vulkan mentioning it in a Quake engine context:

Quake engine has linux support so no biggie. oh, if they use VKquake they can take advantage of vulkan.

but the engine pieces that load textures is actually covered by their BUILD license.

You mean this?
loadpics: Invalid art file version in tiles000.art

I was able to reverse engineer the changes pretty quick.

Does that mean you are going to share us how to get maiden.grp running with Eduke32? ;)


Last edited by Oet_ on 23 Oct 2018 at 8:12 pm UTC

I would ask actually that you not publish that information regarding the art however simple it is. Too late now I guess.

These things (obfuscation) were not done maliciously, but to prevent the entire game from having all of its art casually stolen before the full game releases.

Tools and moddability will appear after the game is completed.

For reference even before the preview released we had instances of individuals ripping art from screenshots. This led to a big rules change in some communities.


Last edited by Mblackwell on 24 Oct 2018 at 2:36 am UTC

to prevent the entire game from having all of its art casually stolen before the full game releases.

My intention was just to get it running on EDuke32, but Mblackwell just peaked my interest for hacking art. ;)

The way I read it, the discussion was about using old technology for retro games. The "high" specs of Ion Maiden were just used as an example for the global discussion.

If you ask me, retro games can perfectly be made with new technology. Retro is about imitating or being inspired by the past.

I agree.
Games with retro graphics must work on retro machines with retro operative systems.

Like.. watching retro movies on retro-VHS recorders? :) What the hell is a retro operative system anyway? :D

Retro means the game seems old, but actually isn't.

Retro Operative systems: DOS, for example...

Well... I would like to use a record player with vacuum tubes for to listening 50's music, because that is the right way to do it.. (but, sadly, I don't have one) :(
And I would like to have a celluloid projector for vintage movies and series, but they are unreachable for my wallet.

And yes, If you make a movie that is a tribute to the 80's, a collector's edition in VHS is not a bad idea.

I would ask actually that you not publish that information regarding the art however simple it is. Too late now I guess.

These things (obfuscation) were not done maliciously, but to prevent the entire game from having all of its art casually stolen before the full game releases.

Tools and moddability will appear after the game is completed.

For reference even before the preview released we had instances of individuals ripping art from screenshots. This led to a big rules change in some commumities.

I hope you intend to allow for that version of the artwork to load in the Eduke32 public release once the final game is released. The ability to modify and change the games built on the BUILD engine were one of it's most successful assets.

To make things clear, after the last interaction on the IRC channel from the main developers, the experience was less than professional. I personally don't have any need or intention to rip art assets, however, I do want the ability to run newer eduke32 code. I will be watching this game closely and if the team does not act in good faith, I will release the information more publicly than in a comment section and with full source code changes. You can also scramble the header format and I have the ability to figure that out as well. We can play the cat and mouse game or be friendly and everyone wins.

The next update is using the latest eduke32.

to prevent the entire game from having all of its art casually stolen before the full game releases.

My intention was just to get it running on EDuke32, but Mblackwell just peaked my interest for hacking art. ;)

Tools for reading .art files have existed for years, but if you wanted to make Linux versions of old Windows apps like DukeRes that would be fantastic actually. :D

The interesting thing about Ion Maiden, is that while it uses Eduke32 as the basis, they intentionally made the texture format incompatible with the Eduke32 release. This is questionable due to the license, since it is derivative of GPL works, but the engine pieces that load textures is actually covered by their BUILD license. I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that the licenses are even compatible due to being linked.

When 3D Realms published the sources to Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior under the GNU GPLv2, they did so with a linking exception for the BUILD Engine. EDuke32 and Ion Maiden are in full compliance with these terms.

Still, I doubt they will officially ever make Ion Maiden supported in the stock Eduke32 release.

I hope you intend to allow for that version of the artwork to load in the Eduke32 public release once the final game is released. The ability to modify and change the games built on the BUILD engine were one of it's most successful assets.

Yes, we do plan to allow the user to drop a newer EDuke32 binary into the game and run with updated code. However, this will only be true with the release of the full version, not the preview campaign.

I attempted to get more information a while back on their Freenode IRC channel, and was met with outright hostility.

To make things clear, after the last interaction on the IRC channel from the main developers, the experience was less than professional. I personally don't have any need or intention to rip art assets, however, I do want the ability to run newer eduke32 code. I will be watching this game closely and if the team does not act in good faith, I will release the information more publicly than in a comment section and with full source code changes. You can also scramble the header format and I have the ability to figure that out as well. We can play the cat and mouse game or be friendly and everyone wins.

I hope everyone in this thread recognizes the incredible amount of disrespect it takes to approach a developer with an ultimatum like this. Our interactions in the EDuke32 IRC channel were neither hostile nor unprofessional: https://pastebin.com/XRNJy1E9

mos6510, please quit misrepresenting our studio with malicious half-truths.

The interesting thing about Ion Maiden, is that while it uses Eduke32 as the basis, they intentionally made the texture format incompatible with the Eduke32 release. This is questionable due to the license, since it is derivative of GPL works, but the engine pieces that load textures is actually covered by their BUILD license. I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that the licenses are even compatible due to being linked.

When 3D Realms published the sources to Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior under the GNU GPLv2, they did so with a linking exception for the BUILD Engine. EDuke32 and Ion Maiden are in full compliance with these terms.

Still, I doubt they will officially ever make Ion Maiden supported in the stock Eduke32 release.

I hope you intend to allow for that version of the artwork to load in the Eduke32 public release once the final game is released. The ability to modify and change the games built on the BUILD engine were one of it's most successful assets.

Yes, we do plan to allow the user to drop a newer EDuke32 binary into the game and run with updated code. However, this will only be true with the release of the full version, not the preview campaign.

I attempted to get more information a while back on their Freenode IRC channel, and was met with outright hostility.

To make things clear, after the last interaction on the IRC channel from the main developers, the experience was less than professional. I personally don't have any need or intention to rip art assets, however, I do want the ability to run newer eduke32 code. I will be watching this game closely and if the team does not act in good faith, I will release the information more publicly than in a comment section and with full source code changes. You can also scramble the header format and I have the ability to figure that out as well. We can play the cat and mouse game or be friendly and everyone wins.

I hope everyone in this thread recognizes the incredible amount of disrespect it takes to approach a developer with an ultimatum like this. Our interactions in the EDuke32 IRC channel were neither hostile nor unprofessional: https://pastebin.com/XRNJy1E9

mos6510, please quit misrepresenting our studio with malicious half-truths.

I don't think mos was coming from a position of disrespect so much as an honest misconception of the licensing, and a misunderstanding of your intentions. In the log you posted, you said "You can explore when the full game is out" once, and the rest of your conversation seems to be against modding -- presumably specifically in the context of the preview, but that didn't really seem explicitly clear to me, so to me it kinda reads as mixed messages.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're planning to support vanilla eduke32 in the final version. Thanks for the clarification.

mos6510, please quit misrepresenting our studio with malicious half-truths.

I don't think mos was coming from a position of disrespect so much as an honest misconception of the licensing, and a misunderstanding of your intentions. In the log you posted, you said "You can explore when the full game is out" once, and the rest of your conversation seems to be against modding -- presumably specifically in the context of the preview, but that didn't really seem explicitly clear to me, so to me it kinda reads as mixed messages.

You are correct, but I also agree with what Hendricks266 stated. That pastebin bit does not look like "was met with outright hostility" is what happened.

Also, from my point of view, those threats to make the image format public were completely unnecessary. Even if the game devs were being asses, those threats would have not sat well with me.

I hope everyone in this thread recognizes the incredible amount of disrespect it takes to approach a developer with an ultimatum like this. Our interactions in the EDuke32 IRC channel were neither hostile nor unprofessional: https://pastebin.com/XRNJy1E9

mos6510, please quit misrepresenting our studio with malicious half-truths.

What about the incredible amount of disrespect to a supporting user's freedom? mos6510 wanted to join eDuke32 with Ion Maiden and got total discouragement instead of help. And now everyone bullied him away from this forum. And because of the pastebin, Hendricks266 actually exposed how people can get it working himself (ironic). :)

That being said, I purchased the game and look forward to the full version, but also its freedom toward the user! I specifically want the freedom to run Ion Maiden on my [GameShell](https://forum.clockworkpi.com/t/lets-play-duke-nukem-3d/1429).

I hope everyone in this thread recognizes the incredible amount of disrespect it takes to approach a developer with an ultimatum like this. Our interactions in the EDuke32 IRC channel were neither hostile nor unprofessional: https://pastebin.com/XRNJy1E9

mos6510, please quit misrepresenting our studio with malicious half-truths.

What about the incredible amount of disrespect to a supporting user's freedom? mos6510 wanted to join eDuke32 with Ion Maiden and got total discouragement instead of help. And now everyone bullied him away from this forum. And because of the pastebin, Hendricks266 actually exposed how people can get it working himself (ironic). :)

That being said, I purchased the game and look forward to the full version, but also its freedom toward the user! I specifically want the freedom to run Ion Maiden on my [GameShell](https://forum.clockworkpi.com/t/lets-play-duke-nukem-3d/1429).

The user has no freedom to simply rip out and use the assets as they want. Seeing as that's been happening, the devs have simply been trying to prevent that - at least until the game has been fully released.

So no, I'm not seeing any disrespect from the devs here. Quite the opposite - they've simply asked people for a little more time before trying to rip apart, mod, etc, a game that's currently still in development.

Okay, good point. Apparently "freedom number 0" as Stallman would call it is clearly lacking at this point ;). I am just curious if the developers are currently respecting the GPL2 of eDuke32 at this moment with the preview (or changed and released changed eDuke32 code without publishing the changes). Don't get me wrong. I encourage people to buy this game, but I also hope the developer is also respecting licenses.


Last edited by Oet_ on 25 Oct 2018 at 4:38 pm UTC

I hope everyone in this thread recognizes the incredible amount of disrespect it takes to approach a developer with an ultimatum like this. Our interactions in the EDuke32 IRC channel were neither hostile nor unprofessional: https://pastebin.com/XRNJy1E9

mos6510, please quit misrepresenting our studio with malicious half-truths.

What about the incredible amount of disrespect to a supporting user's freedom? mos6510 wanted to join eDuke32 with Ion Maiden and got total discouragement instead of help. And now everyone bullied him away from this forum. And because of the pastebin, Hendricks266 actually exposed how people can get it working himself (ironic). :)

That being said, I purchased the game and look forward to the full version, but also its freedom toward the user! I specifically want the freedom to run Ion Maiden on my [GameShell](https://forum.clockworkpi.com/t/lets-play-duke-nukem-3d/1429).

The user has no freedom to simply rip out and use the assets as they want. Seeing as that's been happening, the devs have simply been trying to prevent that - at least until the game has been fully released.

So no, I'm not seeing any disrespect from the devs here. Quite the opposite - they've simply asked people for a little more time before trying to rip apart, mod, etc, a game that's currently still in development.

Okay, good point. Apparently "freedom number 0" as Stallman would call it is clearly lacking at this point ;). I am just curious if the developers are currently respecting the GPL2 of eDuke32 at this moment with the preview (or changed and released changed eDuke32 code without publishing the changes). Don't get me wrong. I encourage people to buy this game, but I also hope the developer is also respecting licenses.

There are components of eduke32 not covered by GPL2. Dev has already replied in this thread stating that they are in full compliance of all appropriate licenses. From everything I can see, they really are trying to do the Right Thing(tm) here. If there turn out to be strange shenanigans later on, so be it, but I think they've shown enough good faith to earn at least until a little bit after release before that should be questioned.
(I'm not saying people should take everything at face value - I've seen enough that I think at least making sure licenses are adhered to - but I think they should at least be allowed to release the game fully first.)

You are probably right. I now assume the devs are in line with both the GPL and the BUILD license.

Yes, we do plan to allow the user to drop a newer EDuke32 binary into the game and run with updated code.

Still a bit afraid of the "plan to" part though. Plans can be changed. ;)

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but even id software NEVER released the source codes for their games until they were YEARS old

True. But this is not about releasing source code of Ion Maiden. It is about (not) having to release changed source code of eDuke32.


Last edited by Oet_ on 25 Oct 2018 at 8:09 pm UTC

http://svn.eduke32.com/listing.php?repname=eduke32

All updates to the codebase go here first. Ion Maiden isn't really a fork. I compile my own binaries from svn locally when new experimental patches get submitted.


Last edited by Mblackwell on 25 Oct 2018 at 8:15 pm UTC

http://svn.eduke32.com/listing.php?repname=eduke32

All updates to the codebase go here first. Ion Maiden isn't really a fork. I compile my own binaries from svn locally when new experimental patches get submitted.

Interesting. I gladly made use of the repo when I wrote my [article](https://forum.clockworkpi.com/t/lets-play-duke-nukem-3d/1429) for the GameShell.

Whereas the GameShell worked fine, my Arch Linux does not seem to like the min-function:

compat.cpp line 629:
source/build/src/compat.cpp:629:82: error: no matching function for call to ‘min(unsigned int, int64_t)’
formats.cpp line 298:
source/audiolib/src/formats.cpp:298:57: error: no matching function for call to ‘min(size_t&, long long unsigned int)’
         voice->length       = min(blocklength, 0x8000ull);

That should be fixed soon. It borks building on Linux in a variety of situations.