Steam has a Summer of Pride 2020 sale and event going on

Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Of course there can only be one correct opinion on the subject. That I did not understand this immediately is of course very stupid, ignorant and also intolerant of me.Perhaps also *phob or so, I am not sure. May the beholders of the one and only tolerant and correct opinion forgive me.
I apology.

It was indeed absolutely not ok, to wonder why people are proud on their gender or sexual orientation. And asking why, was even worse.Probably it is a mental disorder of mine, that I am not proud on being hetero. That disorder is surely the reason, why I am ignorant and did not understand.

I will try not to write anything in this context on GOL anymore.

Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Quoting: Hori

Quoting: psy-q

Quoting: HoriSo let's not victimise ourselves when we do the same things to others, ok?

I wasn't entirely serious, I hoped the tongue emoji would set the tone.

But what was serious is that I really dread revealing I'm on Linux in most gamer communities and only do it when I have to. Either they make Linux the scapegoat for any problems you might have, they try to convert you to Windows or they start insulting you (calling you a cheapskate, a hippie, etc.) so that any productive discussion is pretty much killed.

I've not insulted Windows or macOS (or Android or iOS) users ever, so I'm not sure "everyone's insulting everyone" is really apt. But I'm mostly just in two gaming communities now, one of them GOL, so I don't know if the tone everywhere else is like on the IGN message boards of circa. 2002.

I can subscribe to the "they make Linux the scapegoat for any problems you might have," part, but I haven't encountered the other problems personally (but I've seen other people).

I wasn't clear in my comment but what I meant by everyone is every "camp", be it linux, apple, lgbt, nations, and any other way of categorising and grouping people imaginable, all/most of them are both guilty and victims at the same time.

I wouldn't agree that being born homosexual is in any way related to the kind of camp like choosing to use Linux. These are so wildly different things it doesn't really make sense comparing it. Furthermore, saying 'them' are guilty doesn't really make sense because you can't be guilty because of your existence (eg. being homosexual). However you *can* be targeted as a victim just because of your existence. It's not all same-same.

QuoteA lot of people are called homophobes when it's not the case. I'm sure even I am being called that because of that comment, even tho I don't have any problem with them.

First: Having "any problem with them" is not necessarily a requirement for being a homophone. Many people don't even have issues with trans people, as long as they aren't allowed to change their gender marker. But I don't want to insinuate that you're a homophobe and, as far as I can judge the people here, nobody has called or would necessarily call you a homophobe. I think a more fitting term would be ignorant.

QuoteOr they are called close-minded, opressors, etc...

Well, yes. But why? Well, put simply: Because you close your mind about the issues of other people, specifically issues that are due to homophobes. It's not enough to be not a racist, we need to be anti-racist. Same thing with tolerance towards queer people. Otherwise you *accept* that these people are discriminated against based on their gender, sexual orientation or whatever. And yes, I'd call these people ignorant.

Furthermore, this might be called "systematic oppression". The key here is really the "systematic" as it means: No specific homophobe actor, but the implicit rules, upbringing and language is demeaning towards those groups, resulting in heavy adverse effects for them. The problem with systematic oppression though is that its difficult to pinpoint. It's not "this person here who made a bad joke" but rather the whole environment. The way to move against this is not by small targeted rules but rather large-scale visibility and cross-society support. Ie.: People going to pride events even if they don't need to for themselves.

QuoteIt's obviously not always, but you can say the same the other way around, not all straight people insult lgbt people.

Sure, there are assholes in the LGBT land, but I bet you the most insults are heard within the community, not across. But it's not (really) about insults anyway. It's about getting denied your job, pay, medical treatment and basic respect in day-to-day situations. And, as someone who can/does live both lives, the one of the hetero-presenting white cis-guy and the one of the gay, effeminate whatever, I can pretty much attest that not being queer is a privilege in our society. A privilege to not be disrespected, a privilege to *not need to notice* how other people are actually treated.

QuoteSame goes with religion, feminism, veganism, etc...

Lumping all *isms together, plus religion, doesn't really make sense on *any* scale.

QuoteWhat I'm trying to say, is that "making up" for past injustices, or counting how much one side slighted the other, is just counterproductive and leads to more conflict... and for what gain? Is that really how we're going to achieve equality and understanding?

No, but I've not seen any pride parade with a counter of "how many past injustices did we have". Any, at all. Not even current injustice more often than not. It was just a place were people *meet* and are "officially" acknowledged to be part of our society.

What you are arguing against is a complete straw-man. This is not what any pride event does, wants to do or whatever. Noone is dragging out your dead grandpas record of beating up gay guys. But: Pretending that things like these weren't (or even aren't) common doesn't help. Ignoring the *fact* that being queer means being fearful when out on the streets does not make any of us safer. But that's the goal: Living in peace.

And yes, pride events help quite a bunch, because it shows all those queer phobic idiots out there that they are, in fact, often the minority. That most people, like you, *don't care* about your neighbor being gay. But, even if this does sound so moot, this is a big message you've got there, and you can shout it out.

Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: ZlopezSo if I am white heterosexual I can celebrate the pride month?

Why wouldn't you?

Because I didn't saw anyone in the LGBT... happy, if I say I'm proud white heterosexual. For them I'm racist embracing the culture of enslavers, or at least this is what I see in most media today. People being banned or have to resign from organizations if they take this stance.

But I don't need any special month to be proud about myself. For me it's funny that somebody even needs this :-)

Please link to some of these news items of today where a person have been forced to resign from an organisation due to "being proud of being a white heterosexual".

Quoting: einherjar

Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Of course there can only be one correct opinion on the subject. That I did not understand this immediately is of course very stupid, ignorant and also intolerant of me.Perhaps also *phob or so, I am not sure. May the beholders of the one and only tolerant and correct opinion forgive me.
I apology.

It was indeed absolutely not ok, to wonder why people are proud on their gender or sexual orientation. And asking why, was even worse.Probably it is a mental disorder of mine, that I am not proud on being hetero. That disorder is surely the reason, why I am ignorant and did not understand.

I will try not to write anything in this context on GOL anymore.

This, precisely, is trolling, jfyi. Just note, that nobody has called you phobic, nor has anyone argued that your opinion is necessarily bad. But there were counter points against your position that you ignored, multiple times. Other points you raised (like 'not being proud on being a hetero') were not even argued against, I for myself, am not proud of my orientation as well.

To sum it up: Nobody has *ever* said anything you imply we'd say. In fact, after you already assumed we'd say that, we said that we wouldn't say that.

Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: ZlopezSo if I am white heterosexual I can celebrate the pride month?

Why wouldn't you?

Because I didn't saw anyone in the LGBT... happy, if I say I'm proud white heterosexual. For them I'm racist embracing the culture of enslavers, or at least this is what I see in most media today. People being banned or have to resign from organizations if they take this stance.

But I don't need any special month to be proud about myself. For me it's funny that somebody even needs this :-)

I'm a lesbian and I'm open, but not in people's face about it. I talk about my girlfriend the way my straight friends talk about their significant other.

I've been physically assaulted and sexually assaulted, I've had guys that won't accept that I'm not attracted to men whom end up harassing me until I leave or that have followed me to my car, all for the crime of being a femme lesbian that they're attracted to, that had the audacity to turn them down since my orientation isn't valid in their eyes. I've had "friends" do me the favor of removing themselves from my life when they found out I wasn't straight.

My girlfriend, whom is bi, is still struggling with her insecurity over "not appearing straight" 16 months after our first date. She's currently ignoring me, since her parents are giving her the "wouldn't it be easier to just settle down with a guy?" push. She's 30 and her parents are still trying to tell her who she's allowed to be in a relationship with.

Pride isn't about my need to rub my sexuality in people's face, because I don't need to do that (though I do acknowledge some people insist on doing just that and they, unfortunately diminish and detract from my message)... it's about my right to simply exist and be myself, it's about not feeling like I might lose the relationship with the woman I love because her parents are upset that she's dating a woman, it's about making it so that the next generation can find more acceptance and tolerance than mine did while acknowledging that societal hate is part of what drove my lesbian aunt to commit suicide in the previous generation.

Be glad that you weren't thrown out of your house as a teen because you told your parents that you're not straight, be happy that you've never been sexually assaulted because someone felt entitled to "curing" you, and be elated that you've never spent the night crying because one of your best friends rejected you when you came out. You had the privilege of being straight and that's accepted as the default and normal, so you don't need to come out. I've had to, dozens of times, and the first few times were distressing just going into it... and while telling people got easier over time, facing the rejections since never got any easier... and, if I do lose my girlfriend, the woman I intend to marry, over homophobia, it'll be devastating to me.

And that's why we need pride.

Quoting: Hori@LeonardK
Why I'm putting religion and *ism together is simple: humans always split into camps, for whatever reason is justifiable at that moment. It can be anything, as long as it's more or less clear enough of a difference between groups.
It's that us-vs-them mentality that it's part of our psychology and we can't get away from. We can only mitigate it, but most people seem to lack the strength to do it.

While it is true that we like to classify, some classifications you can self-identify into and some not. That's *one* of the big issues with such an approach.

QuoteAlso, when I said "guilty" I meant that those camps in general are guilty of insults: e.g. there's always people in one camp that slight the people from the other. And as I've said, unfortunately, the vocal few can spoil the whole thing.

Sure there are, but saying "they are guilty" and "they are victims" in one sentence doesn't make any sense, despite those terms being closely related. A vocal few are shitty, but why then, not join those who are not?

QuoteAlso, I wasn't specifically refering just to the lgbt "camp". I am refering to any camp/group/category. A lot of those use insults, ask for "reparation" (what that means differs from case to case), etc.

As someone who's active in the community, I've barely seen that, except from people who could be considered 'collectively denounced' like Alice Schwarzer or Betty White.

QuoteI will assume the mistake of not being clear enough, since this article and most people were talking about the lgbt pride event, and I was talking about pride events and groups of any kind. And my english isn't the best, especially at this hour.

You might not think it's fair to put all of those things together and I understand your point put remember that all I mean is the us-vs-them / group-vs-group issue that I've mentioned, which is very worrying to me since what we need is unity not more division, and that those groups can become corrupted.

I understand the worrying, but that's why those pride events specifically do not have any gatekeeper. Everyone is allowed to come and have fun together. So the event does, in fact, not create division but *celebrate differences* while being inclusionary. Believe, it works rather well :P

QuoteI've also edited my comment in the meantime.

Yes, and you've for example mentioned places where no (almost no) sexism etc. exists. But those are precisely the places where pride events are rather common and rather widely accepted!

QuoteI find it very hard to explain myself right now since it's very late, but to make it clear, all I mean to say is that it's worrying and dangerous to have different categories of people in different boats. We should try to avoid it (as much as we can, it'll never be perfect), and be inclusive rather than divisive.
And to keep it in the context of LGBTQIA+, it's simply a case that for me, who sees "us" as covering all sexual orientations, it's kind of weird to see lgbt people kind of "advertising" themselves as a different group, that's all.

The goal is to all live together safely and respectfully, and while it might be too utopic to achieve, we should still strive towards that goal. I'd much rather have something like a fairness/diversity/acceptance pride month. IMO that is the collective goal of many of the groups and pride events, for all to live together, that should be the normal, the "default", so that's what we should promote.

The thing is, nobody is advertising as a different group. Nobody is asking you to join a group. Perhaps "pride event" is simply a misnomer, as it's more an event to highlight that those, politically and socially small, groups exist and should be treated in fairness. But we can't discuss the current situation (eg. queer people being discriminated against) without shedding light onto this fact. Actually this is one of the reasons of the rather violent outbreaks in the US:

Years of ignoring the fact that the US, specifically police, have ingrained institutionalized racism. Things have happened that are so outraging that people simply *cannot* be calm about it anymore, because being silent doesn't change a thing, unfortunately.

Again, I just want to highlight that those countries with least sexism, or queer phobia are those that have (many) pride events. These are peaceful, inclusive events where everybody hangs out. It's fun, it's as free as it can get, it's relaxing. And that's precisely the signal we need.

Quoting: Hori@saellaven
This is not nearly as bad as it was/is for you, but me and a lot of other people have also suffered discrimination. Especially at school. It doesn't matter in which way you're different, even the tiniest thing will be brought to great lengths against you. For me being shy and having trouble socilising caused me a lot of problems and sadness. Others are discriminated against because they are "ners" and they learn too much, others because they are physically frail, and countless other things.
What all of those cases have in common, is that it's simply not fair.
It's not fair for lesbians (your case), it's also not fair for people who developed their social skills later than their peers (my case, and them being against me only made the problem worse), and it's not fair for countless people in countless different cases.

In my eyes, we're all under the same roof. It's acceptance and fairness that we need to "fight" for, not our individual problems/groups. Because, in my opinion, the source of the problem is the same in all this cases - people don't respect diversity, and people split themselves into different groups way too much.

Diversity is the greatest aspect of the human race. That's what we should be proud of, that's what we should fight for.

I was an outcast nerd as well... I was off the charts intelligent compared to my peers and my teachers, socially awkward having to live as the closeted lesbian (and back when I was in school, any hint of homosexuality would get you flayed by your peers and met with revulsion by your elders), came from a poor, broken family from the hood, etc. I was routinely bullied by both boys and girls and I often took the kids that were more emotionally or mentally fragile than me under my wing to protect them, which just drew more ire to me.

In many ways, it made me a lot stronger... but I'm still pretty fragile on the inside, so I have a hard time letting anyone get close to me, which is why the situation with my gf is even harder right now.

My wish is for everyone to just be tolerant of anyone else that isn't causing harm to someone. I want a world where people don't have to feel shame or be subjected to hate because they're gay, trans, black, nerdy, or any of the othered traits that "normal" people just take for granted. Unfortunately, some people feel empowered by being able to other someone else, and that's why they need to stand in the way.

This is why we have pride month:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

QuoteToday, LGBT Pride events are held annually throughout the world toward the end of June to mark the Stonewall riots.

The Stonewall Riots marked the beginning of the LGBTQIA+ push for equal treatment, to stop the beatings and arrests by police in New York, simply for being gay.


While some progress has been made, such as the recent SCOTUS decision that established same-sex marriage as an inalienable right, and the passage of various hate and discrimination legislature, it doesn't bring back those whose lives have been taken because of bigotry and hate.

Quoting: HoriIn my eyes, we're all under the same roof. It's acceptance and fairness that we need to "fight" for, not our individual problems/groups. Because, in my opinion, the source of the problem is the same in all this cases - people don't respect diversity, and people split themselves into different groups way too much.

Diversity is the greatest aspect of the human race. That's what we should be proud of, that's what we should fight for.

I agree with your goal wholeheartedly! However, if you want to "fight for general acceptance" you soon reach a point where it's not clear what needs to change, not clear where things are still amiss. The only thing that's obvious is that we aren't diverse and accepting yet.

But those people who are directly affected will know what's amiss, and such events are their turn to voice this, s.t. others, who are not affected, can join them and we can work together to fix things. Many white queer people demonstrated, peacefully, together with PoC for #BLM and PoC in their turn, joined the CSD. All have a common goal and support each other!

However, all those groups are discriminated differently against. Obviously, laws forbidding gay marriage are something that affects other people than racist police forces. As such, most non-queer people aren't even *aware* of these issues, just like most white people aren't aware how racist police treatment often is. Or, most socially non-awkward people don't know how much insecure people *suffer*. Or how transgender people are discriminated against, what their needs are: Most people don't even know how to "deal" with them, how to properly show respect even if they want to. And insecurity furthers fear which furthers hatred in turn.

Such events thus serve the idea of exchanging experiences and understanding each others problems, rather than working for only one group. And the positive effect can be seen in those countries that actually have such events. It works!

Have removed some recent comments. Please keep things calm, civil and be nice to each other.

There's plenty of topics of discussion and debate here that are valid, but some people have been taking it into weird and gross directions that should have been left at the door. If people keep coming to comment, and do things like making it clear they're not interested in discussion and basically just "comment-drop" and such then we will have to lock the comments and warn people on their behaviour here. Please read the rules.

Chat can continue as long as people understand the above. Please don't quote this and attempt to carry on previous issues.


Last edited by Liam Dawe on 11 June 2020 at 2:07 pm UTC