System76 patches APT for Pop!_OS to prevent users breaking their systems

Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: dubigrasuYou mean the one with the mouse showing in one place and clicking in another? Yes, I had that one too on AMD, I'm not even surprised when it shows up, "oh, that thing again".
As for workarounds, yes, I also use various scripts to force my monitors to do what I want depending on the specific task. But they are simple tasks, and all this xrandr brouhaha should not be needed. Nvidia/Amd/whatever, is a hassle enough that I'm just better with a single monitor.

If xrandr can fix your issue, then the problem is your DE, not the driver. The weird issue to mention on the second guy is the offset of the screen.

I haven't had that obvious offset issue recently, that's fair. But my main point is that there's no use to throw the dead cat in Nvidia's yard. These weird issues happens regardless if you run Nvidia or AMD.

Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: dubigrasuYou mean the one with the mouse showing in one place and clicking in another? Yes, I had that one too on AMD, I'm not even surprised when it shows up, "oh, that thing again".
As for workarounds, yes, I also use various scripts to force my monitors to do what I want depending on the specific task. But they are simple tasks, and all this xrandr brouhaha should not be needed. Nvidia/Amd/whatever, is a hassle enough that I'm just better with a single monitor.

If xrandr can fix your issue, then the problem is your DE, not the driver. The weird issue to mention on the second guy is the offset of the screen.

Which only happened on the live cd though and not after he installed and used the proper everything so probably a problem with nouveau or the DE used for the live cd.

Quoting: shorberg

Quoting: EikeI guess that's why you and me and most of us are never asked by friends, family and even close-to-strangers: "You know your stuff with computers, right?!? How can I ..."

Oh wait...

Correct. Do note that everyone you mentioned above are people who know you personally in another context, and as you mentioned "you know your stuff with computers, right?!? [...]" and not "as an expert, [...]". The second clue there is in the ", right?!?".

Sorry, it doesn't work out. I am an expert, and I am asked. A friend of mine once asked if I could fix the startup time of a colleague's computer, so it's not even restricted to people I know. And I'm sure many here have similar experiences. My favorite computer magazine even has articles that start with "... and when you're asked for help again as you're the one who knows their stuff with computers...".

If someone's available, many people ask for computer help.

Quoting: Philadelphus

Quoting: Holzkohlen

Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.

I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.

Yeah, from my point of view it was a cautious success, and left a nice supportive comment on the video (which I'm sure will be lost among the 7,000 others) to let them know there are those of us cheering them on in their attempt. It's easy to overlook with Linus's situation, but Luke gets Linux Mint installed, gets Steam installed, and runs a game with no issues. In the first episode. His experience was basically boring (seeing as how no one is really talking about it), which is really encouraging! Meanwhile Linus manages to bork his first choice within fifteen minutes, yes, but instead of giving up for the day (an action I wouldn't blame anyone for doing at that point) he gives it a second go and gets a second distro installed. Sure it's got a sound bug, but that's probably something he'll be able to fix after a good night's sleep and a few hours of Googling, and will probably be straightened out in the second episode.

The overall tone was quite levelheaded and even, with no one smugly proclaiming Windows' superiority or Linux's inferiority, and no one angrily swore off Linux for life. I suspect (or at least hope) that with the public challenge to keep them using Linux for a month, by forcing themselves to stick with it they'll get over the initial hump of difficulties everyone new to Linux encounters and get into the smooth sailing regions well before the time is up. I'm sure they'll probably try playing some AAA games that don't work or maybe some complicated streaming setup that fails or something, but on the whole I expect the overall experience to be pretty painless after the initial few days.

Quoting: F.UltraI just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

Stephen Hawking said that, when he was writing A Brief History of Time, his publisher told him that for every equation he put in the book he would lose half his readership. He ended up including only a single equation, and the book became a phenomenal bestseller.

I suggest a corollary: every time you require use of the terminal, you lose half your potential user base. Let's face it, the majority of computer users are only barely comfortable handling a GUI in the first place. Requiring such people to use the terminal is like requiring people who are barely comfortable with arithmetic to solve non-linear partial differential equations. I absolutely agree that the terminal is one of the best parts of Linux, and people should be able to use it as much as they want; but I also believe that people having to use will probably see Linux's fraction of desktop usage never break a few percent. (This is where different distros come in; you can have a range of distros from "never need the terminal ever" to "doesn't have a window manager", and that's fine as people can self-sort according to their comfort level as long as there are beginner-friendly distros for them to start off with.) So I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view for a new-to-Linux user...

Incredible how much almost no one notices that Mint had almost no issues (aside from having to unplug the second monitor during installation. A problem common to Linux, and a solution which even non technical users can come up with). I guess Mint is not a big enough challenge to be noticed much anymore.. ;-)

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: Philadelphus

Quoting: Holzkohlen

Quoting: gradyvuckovicIt's easy to be disappointed by the first episode of this series and view it as a disaster.

I found it to be absolutely hilarious. I don't care about petty squabbles. No distro is perfect, linux is not perfect, but that is not why any of us use it. I also find it funny how the linux community as a whole seems to behave like a corporate PR department, thinking of this in terms of a PR disaster.
I for one am excited for the rest of this series. I had a blast watching the first one.

Yeah, from my point of view it was a cautious success, and left a nice supportive comment on the video (which I'm sure will be lost among the 7,000 others) to let them know there are those of us cheering them on in their attempt. It's easy to overlook with Linus's situation, but Luke gets Linux Mint installed, gets Steam installed, and runs a game with no issues. In the first episode. His experience was basically boring (seeing as how no one is really talking about it), which is really encouraging! Meanwhile Linus manages to bork his first choice within fifteen minutes, yes, but instead of giving up for the day (an action I wouldn't blame anyone for doing at that point) he gives it a second go and gets a second distro installed. Sure it's got a sound bug, but that's probably something he'll be able to fix after a good night's sleep and a few hours of Googling, and will probably be straightened out in the second episode.

The overall tone was quite levelheaded and even, with no one smugly proclaiming Windows' superiority or Linux's inferiority, and no one angrily swore off Linux for life. I suspect (or at least hope) that with the public challenge to keep them using Linux for a month, by forcing themselves to stick with it they'll get over the initial hump of difficulties everyone new to Linux encounters and get into the smooth sailing regions well before the time is up. I'm sure they'll probably try playing some AAA games that don't work or maybe some complicated streaming setup that fails or something, but on the whole I expect the overall experience to be pretty painless after the initial few days.

Quoting: F.UltraI just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

Stephen Hawking said that, when he was writing A Brief History of Time, his publisher told him that for every equation he put in the book he would lose half his readership. He ended up including only a single equation, and the book became a phenomenal bestseller.

I suggest a corollary: every time you require use of the terminal, you lose half your potential user base. Let's face it, the majority of computer users are only barely comfortable handling a GUI in the first place. Requiring such people to use the terminal is like requiring people who are barely comfortable with arithmetic to solve non-linear partial differential equations. I absolutely agree that the terminal is one of the best parts of Linux, and people should be able to use it as much as they want; but I also believe that people having to use will probably see Linux's fraction of desktop usage never break a few percent. (This is where different distros come in; you can have a range of distros from "never need the terminal ever" to "doesn't have a window manager", and that's fine as people can self-sort according to their comfort level as long as there are beginner-friendly distros for them to start off with.) So I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view for a new-to-Linux user...

Incredible how much almost no one notices that Mint had almost no issues (aside from having to unplug the second monitor during installation. A problem common to Linux, and a solution which even non technical users can come up with). I guess Mint is not a big enough challenge to be noticed much anymore.. ;-)

Indeed. If one were a Mint chauvinist, one might argue that the moral of the whole episode is, if you're going to install Linux and you don't want hassles, use Mint.
Of course I'd have to admit the downside is, yes, you'll have a nice desktop, smooth, everything working, easy to adapt to . . . but it will not, without tinkering, have the most bleeding edge stuff to help you run the games that only just started working on Proton and such.

Quoting: Narvarthin fact he also had problems with Manjaro (no sound), his colleague had no problem with Linux Mint. Anyway, i'm not sure that this "challenge" has any real signification.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyWell, maybe, but everything also went fine for his challenge buddy with Mint, which has neither newest kernels nor newest drivers. There are a lot of distros and I don't think it's valid to claim he "should" have chosen Manjaro.

Quoting: x_wingI just remembered that he end up without sound in his Manjaro install. So no, not even Manjaro is error free (mainly with the weird setup he has in his home).

yeah but it's another thing breaking the system entirely by just installing Steam, and another one having no sound -due to possibly bleeding edge hardware- also who knows if his colleague has the same top-notch hardware and peripherals, I very much doubt it. As I said he should have taken a hint from Valve, and today news is that Valve recommends for now Manjaro KDE, because by Valve's words:

QuoteWe’re going to be installing Manjaro, which is an Arch Linux distribution, similar to what’s on Steam Deck. This version comes with KDE Plasma, which is the same desktop environment that will ship on Steam Deck – all in all it’s very close to the Deck OS environment, and a great way to test for system support.

QuoteAlmost there, just have to install Steam. One bonus of Manjaro is that Steam is pre-installed.

Last edited by sudoer on 12 November 2021 at 7:54 pm UTC

Quoting: sudoeryeah but it's another thing breaking the system entirely by just installing Steam, and another one having no sound -due to possibly bleeding edge hardware- also who knows if his colleague has the same top-notch hardware and peripherals, I very much doubt it. As I said he should have taken a hint from Valve, and today news is that Valve recommends for now Manjaro KDE

Yes, for developers who are trying to emulate a Steam Deck so they can make their games work on it, because it will get them a system whose guts have a resemblance to SteamOS 3.0.
That doesn't make it recommended or uniquely recommendable for other Linux gaming use cases.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: sudoeryeah but it's another thing breaking the system entirely by just installing Steam, and another one having no sound -due to possibly bleeding edge hardware- also who knows if his colleague has the same top-notch hardware and peripherals, I very much doubt it. As I said he should have taken a hint from Valve, and today news is that Valve recommends for now Manjaro KDE

Yes, for developers who are trying to emulate a Steam Deck so they can make their games work on it, because it will get them a system whose guts have a resemblance to SteamOS 3.0.
That doesn't make it recommended or uniquely recommendable for other Linux gaming use cases.

Gaming engines and technology are moving forward everyday and constantly evolving, which means libraries, APIs, GPU drivers, kernels are moving forward everyday as well to support the new software and hardware, so please go tell a Linus guy that he can't play his game because his old-ass distro you 've suggested for him does not support his new hardware, his new peripherals, the game's libraries are newer than those that he has in his system, his GPU drivers do not support the new shiny effects or are performing worse and that he has to wait some years for it or compile a new version by himself or probably destroy his OS in 10 minutes by mixing new and old libraries like in MX Linux, and nice things like that to scare him away. Valve is unquestionably the one and only leading force for Linux penetration amongst the new generation of gamers, and has wisely chosen Arch for all those reasons, transparency and simplicity (faster package-manager because it doesn't have to solve 1mil. dependencies and do 10mil checks, meaning an update wouldn't last 1 hour like in Mint for just unpacking a package), and is already advising Arch-based Manjaro to the devs, not Fedora or OpenSUSE TW, or Debian Sid... ,so you can expect new Linux users -because of Steam and the Steam Deck- going with the Arch-line and very probably staying with it, which means Manjaro will be their starting distro, then maybe they can start exploring EndeavourOS, going Garuda, SteamOS 3.0, or even later vanilla Arch. So it is actually the de facto recommendation and you can either accept it with the upcoming reality forged by Valve, or live in your own :)


Last edited by sudoer on 13 November 2021 at 12:30 am UTC

Quoting: sudoer

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: sudoeryeah but it's another thing breaking the system entirely by just installing Steam, and another one having no sound -due to possibly bleeding edge hardware- also who knows if his colleague has the same top-notch hardware and peripherals, I very much doubt it. As I said he should have taken a hint from Valve, and today news is that Valve recommends for now Manjaro KDE

Yes, for developers who are trying to emulate a Steam Deck so they can make their games work on it, because it will get them a system whose guts have a resemblance to SteamOS 3.0.
That doesn't make it recommended or uniquely recommendable for other Linux gaming use cases.

Gaming engines and technology are moving forward everyday and constantly evolving, which means libraries, APIs, GPU drivers, kernels are moving forward everyday as well to support the new software and hardware, so please go tell a Linus guy that he can't play his game because his old-ass distro you 've suggested for him does not support his new hardware, his new peripherals, the game's libraries are newer than those that he has in his system, his GPU drivers do not support the new shiny effects or are performing worse and that he has to wait some years for it or compile a new version by himself or probably destroy his OS in 10 minutes by mixing new and old libraries like in MX Linux, and nice things like that to scare him away. Valve is unquestionably the one and only leading force for Linux penetration amongst the new generation of gamers, and has wisely chosen Arch for all those reasons, transparency and simplicity (faster package-manager because it doesn't have to solve 1mil. dependencies and do 10mil checks, meaning an update wouldn't last 1 hour like in Mint for just unpacking a package), and is already advising Arch-based Manjaro to the devs, not Fedora or OpenSUSE TW, or Debian Sid... ,so you can expect new Linux users -because of Steam and the Steam Deck- going with the Arch-line and very probably staying with it, which means Manjaro will be their starting distro, then maybe they can start exploring EndeavourOS, going Garuda, SteamOS 3.0, or even later vanilla Arch. So it is actually the de facto recommendation and you can either accept it with the upcoming reality forged by Valve, or live in your own :)

I do not want to get into a distro flame war. And your attitude is such that I can't really keep discussing without getting into one. Good day.

I'm pretty bored of the narrative that if you're not running a rolling release, then you're outdated.

I'm on Pop, but I still have the latest kernels every day or so via xanmod. I have cutting edge Mesa via Kisak. It's a good mix.

Use the distro that works for you, but please, just please can we stop putting down other people's choices?

Look, I've tried Manjaro twice and it was a car crash both times, about two years apart. I don't spend my life telling everyone not to use it though, because it clearly does work for some people. That's great! I'll sing Pop's praises and the Arch bods can talk up Manjaro.

It's not hard. We're all running Linux here.