ROCKFISH Games have now launched EVERSPACE 2 and it looks awesome! One of their original Kickstarter promises did not make it though, with Native Linux support being cancelled as they will support it with Proton instead.
Despite repeatedly mentioning a Native Linux build would come, even as recently as mid February, they decided not to go through with it. Why? They said Vulkan support in Unreal Engine 4 is "broken and incomplete" and it gave between "50% - 80%" of the performance compared with just running the Windows version in Proton. There were other issues, like VRAM leaks causing crashes. After they spoke with Epic Games, they said it's clear Unreal Engine 4 won't get fixed up with the focus now on Unreal Engine 5 and ROCKFISH don't have the time to fix up the game engine.
They shared a screenshot as a quick example showing the Native build with Vulkan, their Windows build with DXVK and the Windows build with VKD3D-Proton and the performance difference speaks for itself really:
The good news is they plan to ensure it does work well with Proton and they will continue to optimize it there. Any Kickstarter backers not happy can request a refund too which is good to see.
As for Steam Deck, dedicated optimizations for it are also still planned.
For players on other stores like GOG, it does make things more complicated, since Steam is the only store to officially support a translation layer like Proton. However, you can try with Heroic Games Launcher.
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InhaleOblivion 10 Apr 2023
Sitting on the fence with this one. Performance is trash currently and hopefully will improve over time. I'll pull the trigger when/if it does.
0 Likes
R Daneel Olivaw 11 Apr 2023
For what it's worth, I'm REALLY having a lot of fun with the game. It truly scratches the outer-space-open-world/universe vibe. Yes it definitely has some perf issues, but even still, the game they've crafted is a ton of fun. Give it a try!
3 Likes, Who?
It's probably closest in bringing back Freelancer vibe (even if not quite fully) than any other game so far. I wonder how single player Star Citizen will compare in that sense.
2 Likes, Who?
Not sure if it's a game bug or something with radv or vkd3d-proton, but in this release version any time someone is shooting one of those red beam rail guns, whole screen becomes half covered in red and it gets stuck that way.
Last edited by Shmerl on 11 Apr 2023 at 7:26 am UTC
Last edited by Shmerl on 11 Apr 2023 at 7:26 am UTC
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ssj17vegeta 11 Apr 2023
One of the very first steps in any development project is ensuring the tools you plan to use are going to do their job. BEFORE starting to code. If Unreal Engine wasn't a satisfactory solution, they could've seen it way earlier (and then either ditch it or ditch Linux support).
Just to be clear, I'm not even mad (anymore) that a game studio gives up on Linux: after all, we're clearly a very small market not worth the investment. It's the hypocrisy, the surprise announcement on release that sounds a lot like a "woops! sorry nerds!".
You consider making a Linux version ? Use cross-platform engines and make sure they work. THEN make all the promises you want.
Just to be clear, I'm not even mad (anymore) that a game studio gives up on Linux: after all, we're clearly a very small market not worth the investment. It's the hypocrisy, the surprise announcement on release that sounds a lot like a "woops! sorry nerds!".
You consider making a Linux version ? Use cross-platform engines and make sure they work. THEN make all the promises you want.
2 Likes, Who?
And to show Rockfish Games know what they are doing, and they are actively supporting Linux via Proton:
The videos in Everspace 2 are using Media Foundation codecs, normally Valve does re-encode them for us, and ship them via pre-cache, so they don't run into legal issues. But those videos don't work at first, it needs some time for Valve to re-encode and ship them.
Not in Everspace 2, the videos (especially new ones that haven't been seen in Early Access, so nobody could have triggered the re-encoding process on Valve's end yet) work from the start! This is because RFG has re-encoded them, and checks if the game is running via Wine/Proton. If so, they use VP9 encoded videos via Unreal's WebM player. On Windows the WMF player is used.
Unfortunatly the WebM player in Unreal has a memory leak: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631
But even here they are actively working on resolving this issue! This is support for gaming on Linux!
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631?ctp=2#c3823034639980711061
Last edited by Corben on 11 Apr 2023 at 12:48 pm UTC
The videos in Everspace 2 are using Media Foundation codecs, normally Valve does re-encode them for us, and ship them via pre-cache, so they don't run into legal issues. But those videos don't work at first, it needs some time for Valve to re-encode and ship them.
Not in Everspace 2, the videos (especially new ones that haven't been seen in Early Access, so nobody could have triggered the re-encoding process on Valve's end yet) work from the start! This is because RFG has re-encoded them, and checks if the game is running via Wine/Proton. If so, they use VP9 encoded videos via Unreal's WebM player. On Windows the WMF player is used.
Unfortunatly the WebM player in Unreal has a memory leak: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631
But even here they are actively working on resolving this issue! This is support for gaming on Linux!
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631?ctp=2#c3823034639980711061
Last edited by Corben on 11 Apr 2023 at 12:48 pm UTC
5 Likes, Who?
EagleDelta 11 Apr 2023
Promising something in a Kickstarter campaign and then not fulfulling the promise is another cup of tea though but at least they offer refunds.If they'd promised it, not delivered, and not given a refund, that would be fraud, so... they had to give refunds.
No, it's not. Come on now. Backing something on crowdfunding is just that, you're backing the work, whether it gets completed or not. Your taking the exact same risk that other investors take, just with much smaller amounts of money. Hell, a crowdfunding campaign is even setup just like an investment pitch:
1. Layout the project and what the investors can plan to get "rewarded" with upon completion.
2. Layout the amount needed.
3. Provide a list of "Risks" for investing in the campaign
4. Provide updates on progress.
In the real investing world, that includes unseen changes to the scope of the project. They didn't have to offer refunds.... which speaks more to the character and intent of the change. They didn't want to drop the Linux version, but Epic forced their hand and they cannot port the game to UE5 without delaying the game for months to years (a port of that nature for a small company is not fast). So, instead, they offered refunds to players who were affected and wanted a refund.
2 Likes, Who?
EagleDelta 11 Apr 2023
Totaly irelevant. From my point of view it's just buying without legal protection from state, so everythink is based solaly on my trust in developer. Legaly kickstarter can't call it buying, but by my internal definition it's still buying.
Not irrelevant at all. Venture funding is fundamentally different from purchasing. You aren't paying for the product, you're paying to help get the product made, whether it succeeds or not. Whether it makes it to completion or not.
Crowdfunding campaigns are laid out just like an funding pitch, just with product-based rewards instead of equity in the company. We don't get to walk into the situation and redefine what venture funding is, regardless if it's done by an Venture Capitalist firm or through crowdfunding. It's the same thing, the main difference is that crowdfunding allows companies, especially small ones, to get funding for projects a VC may not want to invest in b/c it's not the hot thing right now or the returns are relatively small. Instead, crowdfunding lets us put money into a project and hope we get our return (usually a product and/or some exclusives) while taking less risk overall.
The fact that they offered refunds is a sign that they didn't want to drop the Linux version, but felt they had no other choice since Epic was refusing to fix something that they had promised to fix. And sometimes, that's just the reality of life in software dev.
3 Likes, Who?
No, it's not. Come on now.The term you're looking for is "material misrepresentation."
From the Kickstarter Terms Of Use:
"The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
2 Likes, Who?
And to show Rockfish Games know what they are doing, and they are actively supporting Linux via Proton:
The videos in Everspace 2 are using Media Foundation codecs, normally Valve does re-encode them for us, and ship them via pre-cache, so they don't run into legal issues. But those videos don't work at first, it needs some time for Valve to re-encode and ship them.
Not in Everspace 2, the videos (especially new ones that haven't been seen in Early Access, so nobody could have triggered the re-encoding process on Valve's end yet) work from the start! This is because RFG has re-encoded them, and checks if the game is running via Wine/Proton. If so, they use VP9 encoded videos via Unreal's WebM player. On Windows the WMF player is used.
Unfortunatly the WebM player in Unreal has a memory leak: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631
But even here they are actively working on resolving this issue! This is support for gaming on Linux!
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631?ctp=2#c3823034639980711061
Didn't notice memory leaks in Wine 8.5. But video cutscenes didn't work at all in the past and started working in the pre-release version at some point.
Last edited by Shmerl on 11 Apr 2023 at 4:43 pm UTC
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One of the very first steps in any development project is ensuring the tools you plan to use are going to do their job. BEFORE starting to code. If Unreal Engine wasn't a satisfactory solution, they could've seen it way earlier (and then either ditch it or ditch Linux support).I dunno. It's a lot easier when you're talking about little special-purpose libraries (especially since there are good cross-platform solutions for a lot of that stuff, worked on by some good people exactly to fill those needs). But when you're talking about the main game engine, your choices as far as I can tell are limited. You got:
--Unreal
--Unity
--maybe Godot, depending
--write your own
For any given use case there is a good chance none of those are ideal and you're going to have to balance off disadvantages. So OK, Unreal had the disadvantage that Vulkan performance sucked, but they're balancing that against some other stuff that was presumably problematic for them with other options (e.g. writing your own would be ridiculously hard and expensive and might not work for crap). And probably Unreal people said it would improve. So they figured they had a decent chance. I can see it happening without any particularly bad decisions on their part.
I do think continuing to promise right until the last minute wasn't ideal.
1 Likes, Who?
I haven't played the full version, only trying the demo at the moment. Strong suggestion to switch to a non-default Proton version (I'm using experimental at the moment).
With the default Proton, I had crazy micro-stutter regardless of quality settings. The frametime graph in mangohud was more of a bar than a line. Switched to experimental Proton and the fluctuations of frametimes are now very reasonable.
Performance is not ideal with "sliders to the right and call it a day". Have to try the various settings later for performance vs visuals. Any recommendations? Also on D3D11 vs D3D12?
On the topic of the article: I've long left kickstarter and similar platforms behind. I don't buy on promises, I buy on what's (potentially) delivered to my machine.
If Rockfish (or any other developer) can give me a good experience, be it with Proton or native, at a (subjectively) fair price for the amount of fun I can have in the game, I'll shell out the money.
For me right now it's near mandatory for a game to have a demo version, and I commend Rockfish for putting one up. If it's good (enough for the asking price) I buy, else I don't. Sadly, most games I bought in recent years on hearsay failed my expectations big times.
With the default Proton, I had crazy micro-stutter regardless of quality settings. The frametime graph in mangohud was more of a bar than a line. Switched to experimental Proton and the fluctuations of frametimes are now very reasonable.
Performance is not ideal with "sliders to the right and call it a day". Have to try the various settings later for performance vs visuals. Any recommendations? Also on D3D11 vs D3D12?
On the topic of the article: I've long left kickstarter and similar platforms behind. I don't buy on promises, I buy on what's (potentially) delivered to my machine.
If Rockfish (or any other developer) can give me a good experience, be it with Proton or native, at a (subjectively) fair price for the amount of fun I can have in the game, I'll shell out the money.
For me right now it's near mandatory for a game to have a demo version, and I commend Rockfish for putting one up. If it's good (enough for the asking price) I buy, else I don't. Sadly, most games I bought in recent years on hearsay failed my expectations big times.
0 Likes
I do think continuing to promise right until the last minute wasn't ideal.
Pretty sure that's because they were pulling out all the stops to try to make it happen. I'm with Corben on this - RFG should be applauded for their approach here, and certainly not vilified for failing to make up for Epic's lack of commitment to the Linux version of their own engine.
Just another reason to snort derisively the next time Tim Sweeney opens his voice and re-invents the meaning of common words to sell some twisted narrative that he's the good guy.
4 Likes, Who?
Oh, I think I just hit that cutscene memory leak bug. I hope they'll fix it.
Last edited by Shmerl on 11 Apr 2023 at 9:12 pm UTC
Last edited by Shmerl on 11 Apr 2023 at 9:12 pm UTC
0 Likes
And to show Rockfish Games know what they are doing, and they are actively supporting Linux via Proton:
The videos in Everspace 2 are using Media Foundation codecs, normally Valve does re-encode them for us, and ship them via pre-cache, so they don't run into legal issues. But those videos don't work at first, it needs some time for Valve to re-encode and ship them.
Not in Everspace 2, the videos (especially new ones that haven't been seen in Early Access, so nobody could have triggered the re-encoding process on Valve's end yet) work from the start! This is because RFG has re-encoded them, and checks if the game is running via Wine/Proton. If so, they use VP9 encoded videos via Unreal's WebM player. On Windows the WMF player is used.
Unfortunatly the WebM player in Unreal has a memory leak: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631
But even here they are actively working on resolving this issue! This is support for gaming on Linux!
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1128920/discussions/6/3823034248723581631?ctp=2#c3823034639980711061
Didn't notice memory leaks in Wine 8.5. But video cutscenes didn't work at all in the past and started working in the pre-release version at some point.
The memory leak is not related to wine, it's the WebM player plugin of the Unreal Engine they are using now in the release version. The videos before started working after a while, because Valve reencoded them and shipped them via pre-cache. I think no new videos were added for a while. I think you also got a Steam key for the EA first, right? And now you are on GoG?
0 Likes
Well it looks great and all, but really, I'm sticking with (Linux native) X4:Foundations for now 
0 Likes
Totaly irelevant. From my point of view it's just buying without legal protection from state, so everythink is based solaly on my trust in developer. Legaly kickstarter can't call it buying, but by my internal definition it's still buying.
Not irrelevant at all. Venture funding is fundamentally different from purchasing. You aren't paying for the product, you're paying to help get the product made, whether it succeeds or not. Whether it makes it to completion or not.
Crowdfunding campaigns are laid out just like an funding pitch, just with product-based rewards instead of equity in the company. We don't get to walk into the situation and redefine what venture funding is, regardless if it's done by an Venture Capitalist firm or through crowdfunding. It's the same thing, the main difference is that crowdfunding allows companies, especially small ones, to get funding for projects a VC may not want to invest in b/c it's not the hot thing right now or the returns are relatively small. Instead, crowdfunding lets us put money into a project and hope we get our return (usually a product and/or some exclusives) while taking less risk overall.
The fact that they offered refunds is a sign that they didn't want to drop the Linux version, but felt they had no other choice since Epic was refusing to fix something that they had promised to fix. And sometimes, that's just the reality of life in software dev.
I give them money they give my product -> buying.
I give them money they give my company shares/bonds -> investing.
Thats my internal definition
Offering refund is not sign of anythink. They did not delivered what they promised, so they give back money. In principle they get from some backers interest free loan.
Sign that they didn't want to drop the Linux version is official support of proton. They know it only on release is sign of incompetency.
But still they lost credibility regardless if you consider it buying or investing.
0 Likes
Thats my internal definitionInternally define away. Knock yourself out. Just realise that it's meaningless and irrelevant to everyone in the real world.
Offering refunds isn't a sign of anything? Yes, it is. It's a sign that RFG are doing the best they can to be the good guys here. Epic screwed them, and they've gone above and beyond their responsibilities to you, a kickstarter backer with absolutely no rights. They had NO obligation to offer refunds. None. But they're doing it anyway.
They know it only on release is sign of incompetency.RFG are far from incompetent. Pretty sure you enjoyed E1, right? And now I'm enjoying E2, an absolutely incredible experience. Criticising a dev for decisions is one thing. Blatantly insulting their capability in the face of evidence is quite another. You can get right in the sea with that childish attitude.
But still they lost credibilityOnly with those who stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the extraordinary lengths these devs went to in order to try to deliver their product.
You're hating on the wrong people here, and it's frankly out of order.
3 Likes, Who?
preludelinux 12 Apr 2023
Its sad to see them not support linux native even sadder to mention still possible supporting a "native mac os port" right after mentioning no linux port and supporting proton which mac should have all the same issues right? is UE4 that badly done in linux to even support mac os better then linux for a game port? i hear that linux gaming is growing, whats mac gaming? only time i here about mac gaming was booting into windows to play games using bootcamp.
0 Likes
EagleDelta 12 Apr 2023
Its sad to see them not support linux native even sadder to mention still possible supporting a "native mac os port" right after mentioning no linux port and supporting proton which mac should have all the same issues right? is UE4 that badly done in linux to even support mac os better then linux for a game port? i hear that linux gaming is growing, whats mac gaming? only time i here about mac gaming was booting into windows to play games using bootcamp.
UE4 has Metal support and pretty decent support from what I understand. It's UE4's Vulkan support that is botched, hence why the Linux port was dropped.
If we want to get into technicalities, Proton is also Native. WINE doesn't emulate anything, instead it re-implements Windows APIs in the Linux land. That's a distinct difference from trying to emulate hardware or software. DOSBox is an emulator as it is wrapping an entire hardware + OS platform in software. WINE/DXVK/vkd3d/Proton are literally either translating one API into another or re-implementing APIs of another software stack entirely. This is done all the time in technology with API client libraries and the like.
TL;DR - WINE IS native by the actual technical definition of what an API does. If WINE isn't native, then no APIs are.
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