World of Goo 2 launches in May on the Epic Store - but Linux support from their website

Quoting: gbudnyI can say it's always easier to use Windows to run these games than Proton on Linux.

It's really not easier to use Windows. It takes just a couple of clicks to use Proton (or usually no clicks at all on the Steam Deck), then the game runs on Linux as if it's native because Proton translates calls to native ones, AND you don't have to suffer dealing with Windows.

Clicking two or three times is much more convenient and space-saving than having bunches of old computers, monitors, and KVMs, and needing to maintain them - certainly, people shouldn't be using the hardware you're recommending without recapping it all, and the vast majority don't have the tools or the experience to do that. They usually do know how to click a mouse a couple of times, though.

Quoting: gbudnyI know almost nothing about solving issues with games on Windows or Wine. That is probably a reason why Proton so popular among Linux users. They have more experience with systems created by Microsoft.

I don't have any experience with running games on Windows either (last time I did so before becoming a Linux-gamer in 2021 was running Jazz Jackrabbit 2 on Windows 95 back in 1998; Personally I moved over to MacOS in 2004 whilst waiting for Linux laptop support to mature, and that's not any sort of gaming platform), and yet I've had no difficulties whatsoever with Proton.

It's disingenuous to claim that Proton is popular for that reason (and it seems so unusual to promote Microsoft so much on a Linux-gaming site), when the reality is that it's purely because it's simple and elegant to use. It's the exact same reason that Rabbit Phones* failed and GSM phones gained mass-adoption - people will adopt the technology that fits into their life, not the one that demands that they rework their life around the technology.

*If you're not familiar with them, I'm not surprised! Rabbit Phones were mobile telephones that could only make outgoing calls, and which required the user to go out and drive to locations (often sponsored ones, like particular branches of McDonalds in big cities) that had compatible masts in order to make those calls, as long as it would work when you did so. They could not receive incoming calls nor send or receive text-messages. If you've never heard of them, that utter failure to be convenient to users is why - GSM decimated Rabbit the second it hit the scene.

Quoting: gbudnyI frequently can figure out what is wrong if a game doesn't works correctly on Linux. Doing similar things with Windows or Wine will be more tricky to me.
I don't want to learn these things. Playing games for Windows or with Wine is so boring to me.

What do you need to learn to click a mouse two or three times, exactly?


Last edited by Pengling on 22 February 2024 at 10:10 am UTC

Quoting: gbudny

Quoting: pleasereadthemanual

Quoting: dvdI find it weird that people find it weird that a company supports our platform of choice. I wish more devs had an option to bypass the bullshit stores. Why is it so necessary to put the game on these stores?

Because Proton, which is only usable by most people on Steam, provides a better experience in most cases than a native Linux version.

That's not necessarily my experience, although I recently had to install old libraries to get Loop Hero from GOG to work again, but a lot of Linux users do say as much. I also had to manually patch a library for another native Linux game from Itch. And delete some old bundled libraries for a Ren'Py game from Itch...

But I do support devs releasing their games wherever they want. It's just, supporting Linux natively long-term, even with open source engines, seems far more challenging than other platforms.

I know it's annoying sometimes to load all Linux libraries. On the other hand, Linux allows users to run some games released 10-20 years ago on the modern Linux distributions. Users should start to think about it as an advantage because it frequently works in this way.

I prefer to think about Linux distributions as separate game consoles, so put your favorite game consoles below if you don't like this example:

Linux 2.0 - 2.2: PlayStation 1 (this is just the example)
Linux 2.4 - 2.6: PlayStation 2
Linux 2.6 - 3.0: PlayStation 3
Linux 4.0 - 5.0: PlayStation 4
Linux 6.0: PlayStation 5

For instance, Mac users can only rely on old computers or open source projects. Apple frequently removes emulators or parts of the operating system that are necessary to run old games.

I think users can mitigate this issue, and they should mainly play games on the long-term support distributions. That can give us an experience similar to Windows or Mac users, but it probably also means keeping two Linux distributions on the same computer for relatively modern games.

It starts to get scary when I read comments of users about buying games only from Steam.
It's my advice to avoid buying games for Linux only from Steam if a specific game has the DRM-free version on GOG, itch.io or other online stores.

You should always check if the game is the DRM-free version on Steam and then, make a backup copy. You never know if a new version of a game will require a Steam or something else to run. It's fine to buy games for Linux from Steam if you don't have a choice or you don't plan to play them in the future.

Steam is a web browser, which will be almost impossible to run if a game requires the old libraries that don't load a game correctly on the modern Linux distributions. You can end up with games you can't play anymore because the most recent version of Steam won't install on the older Linux distributions.

I read about issues with Steam for the older operating systems. I saw people who couldn't log in or Steam crashes when they tried to run it. Some people reported they couldn't use Steam even if they made a copy of the Steam. Steam always requires to fully install with all the updates on the fresh operating system. When you can't install Steam on the specific operating system, then you frequently can log in, but you could be offline. In this case, your internet connection could work correctly, but Steam doesn't allow you to download anything from your account.

You can try hacks, which could work for only some games. The weird issue with Steam is that it requires fully install and update on new, installed system. Otherwise, your old versions of Steam could be useless, and your games are gone with your money.

You shouldn't need to pick a particular Linux distribution to mitigate compatibility issues. I run Linux for a lot of scenarios, including work. Additionally, LTS distributions are more prone to security issues. Read about XScreensaver and Debian if you want to go down a rabbit hole...

Linux, the kernel, is very backwards compatible. It's all the other important system libraries that don't care as much (glibc comes to mind).

I personally purchase games from GOG, itch.io, and DLsite (they have DRM-free games). I rarely ever purchase games from Steam anymore. But I certainly don't blame users who do, because it's a better experience. Valve has invested a lot of time and money in making it a better experience. As a result, it is the easiest way to play games on Linux; everything else requires knowledge newbies aren't likely to have.

If you're using an older operating system for gaming and it's too old to run Steam's version of CEF, get a newer operating system. You can run modern Linux distributions on pretty old hardware. There's really no reason to be running an older operating system unless, of course, you need to run old software that doesn't run on modern OSes. In which case, get a VM or use Distrobox. Or even build a Docker image with the environment you need (it's not hard!).

Quoting: gbudnyI can say it's always easier to use Windows to run these games than Proton on Linux.

It very much is not nowadays. I only have a Steam Deck so correct me if I'm wrong for desktop distros but the most work I've had to do is install DeckyLoader, ProtonDB and WineCellar. Sometimes, if a game doesn't work as the Verified program states (very rare in my experience), I use ProtonDB to check the Proton version I should use and just select that. That's it.

Once, Ghostrunner didn't run and that's when I learnt about Winetricks. 15 mins later, the game is up and running, fully playable.

Contrast this with my Windows on Deck experience. Every time I launch Windows, I get bombarded with weird updates that require me to restart multiple times. Once those are done, I have to start up the game and check what weird error the game launches with. Then it takes about an hour for me to troubleshoot before I'm in the game. With weird stuttering since Windows has strange memory management.

I'd say for newer games, Windows could beat out SteamOS in terms of setup if you're not running a Verified/Playable game. But most AAA games are verified nowadays so they open up instantly once installed. The ones that aren't just require some Proton version to be changed, which is easy to look up with ProtonDB.

Quoting: PenglingIt's really not easier to use Windows. It takes just a couple of clicks to use Proton (or usually no clicks at all on the Steam Deck), then the game runs on Linux as if it's native because Proton translates calls to native ones, AND you don't have to suffer dealing with Windows.

I saw many reports about issues with Proton.
I don't find playing games for Windows on Linux entertaining - it's boring to me. Windows is better for these games, and above 90% of Windows users can confirm it - this operating system sells so well.

Quoting: PenglingIClicking two or three times is much more convenient and space-saving than having bunches of old computers, monitors, and KVMs, and needing to maintain them - certainly, people shouldn't be using the hardware you're recommending without recapping it all, and the vast majority don't have the tools or the experience to do that. They usually do know how to click a mouse a couple of times, though.

I click on my KVM or a remote control to use them, and I don't care about space in my apartment. I use one monitor to connect all old computers with the Geforce cards and Sound Blaster Live 5.1. I don't maintain operating systems on these computers. I install the NVidia drivers and later games for them - nothing more. I don't play multiplayer games, and I don't connect them to the internet.

Of course, keeping old computers functional sometimes could be challenging, but I like to keep them used. Users of the other operating systems and game consoles use them this way.

Quoting: PenglingIt's disingenuous to claim that Proton is popular for that reason (and it seems so unusual to promote Microsoft so much on a Linux-gaming site), when the reality is that it's purely because it's simple and elegant to use.

I think long-term Windows users have fewer issues with Wine/Proton than people like me. I switched to Linux in 2004 after over a year of using it on my first computer. I don't have to promote Microsoft because many users boot Windows when a game doesn't work well with Linux. Microsoft needs companies like CodeWeavers and Valve to get more money from Linux users and keep its position in the market. It's good news for them when Linux users claim they only need games for Windows to run on them on Wine/Proton. Wine and Proton aren't Microsoft projects, but they help promote their technology among Linux users. I think it's far more important for Microsoft that Linux users have some doubts about all the work done by dead companies like Loki Software. I think about the open source libraries used in creating native games for Linux. This mistrust of Linux users to own companies is beneficial for Microsoft.

Quoting: PenglingWhat do you need to learn to click a mouse two or three times, exactly?

Ok.
I tried to install Medal of Honor on Wine from GOG. I can play the native version on my old computer, and I report bugs for OpenMOHAA, which added support for mods. It didn't work when I tried to run it, and after an hour of searching, I gave up on it. It was easier to use YouTube and see how this issue looks on Windows.

I was terrified because I was a Cedega subscriber in 2007. I had the same issue with Mohaa. Back then, I solved it after some time with some settings. It's disappointing how much Transgaming, CodeWeavers, and Valve invested in Wine, and Mohaa doesn't run after the installation.

That was a game officially supported by Transgaming, so it should have always worked since 2007.


Last edited by gbudny on 22 February 2024 at 11:48 am UTC

Quoting: gbudnyNo. We had the big titles on Linux and many indie games before HIB. Unfortunately, Linux users didn't have one or two online stores where you could buy most of these games. It was too fragmented for average users.

What's with trying to rewrite history? We definitely didn't get big stuff before the Humble Indie Bundle. We had scraps. Loki and then LGP died long before and neither actually did many ports. We had a few random indie games, and the usual open source stuff.

Quoting: gbudnyWindows is better for these games, and above 90% of Windows users can confirm it - this operating system sells so well.

There are so many absolutely awful takes from you in this thread, but this is definitely the worst.

How many people do you imagine ever install an OS (any OS)? Which OS do essentially all desktop computers come with pre-installed?


Last edited by CatKiller on 22 February 2024 at 12:49 pm UTC

Quoting: Liam DaweWhat's with trying to rewrite history? We definitely didn't get big stuff before the Humble Indie Bundle. We had scraps. Loki and then LGP died long before and neither actually did many ports. We had a few random indie games, and the usual open source stuff.

Scraps? I wouldn't call them this way because it was more risky for these companies to port games to Linux. Loki didn't start it because we had games before them: SimCity, Quake, Abuse, etc. We had games like Hopkins FBI, Raptor, Kingpin, and others when Loki existed.

LGP cooperated with many different porting companies, so it's more complicated. There were other companies like Runesoft, Hyperion, Epic Games, Linden Research, Inc., Vicarious Visions, etc. Some ported one or two games, but many others tried after them.

From 1994 they were always companies interested in porting games to Linux. The situation with indie games is very different because there are much more of them. I can present many examples, but If I say that Runes of Avalon, Caster, or Space Ping Pong Match was fun to play. Well, it doesn't mean anything for many users. You can't buy most of these games and play them.

These games are known for the small group of users interested in classic indie games. You can find many unknown indie titles if you like reading about them:

https://happypenguin.altervista.org/

Unfortunately, you can't download the demo versions or see a screenshot. I wish we could fix this issue somehow. There are some small indie games, and we can still contact the original authors. Preserving these pieces of Linux history could be important for future generations.

I rarely get lucky to draw some attention of users to classic games like Halloween: The New Nightmare for Linux, which was a commercial game. Holarse decided to mention Exile 3 for Linux - the first commercial RPG for Linux:

https://holarse.de/news/wochenendr%C3%BCckblick_2024_03_versp%C3%A4tetes_winenachtsgeschenk_wine_9_ist_da_onfoss_lan_mit

You can play it now on the old Linux distributions. I appreciate when Liam Dawe or Hamish Paul Wilson write articles about classic or indie games for Linux. In my opinion, it's important for me than games for Windows on Proton. I know users interested in the AAA titles on Proton could disagree with me - it's my preference when I play games.


Last edited by gbudny on 22 February 2024 at 1:05 pm UTC

Once again, scraps, let's take off the rose-tinted glasses for a bit. Pre-HIB era we had hardly anything. I think some of you really have this weird and confusing nostalgia about how things were. I've been here since long before and it was not good. You had a hard time finding anything, most weren't supported at all, and while we had a few indie games they were tiny.

Given your previous posts, you just seem to be anti-Proton / Wine, which in 2024 I just find hilarious tbh. It's a button click to play stuff now, pretty much anything as long as it doesn't have anti-cheat. Proton is easy and it works well.


Last edited by Liam Dawe on 22 February 2024 at 1:00 pm UTC

Quoting: Liam DaweOnce again, scraps, let's take off the rose-tinted glasses for a bit. Pre-HIB era we had hardly anything. I think some of you really have this weird and confusing nostalgia about how things were. I've been here since long before and it was not good. You had a hard time finding anything, most weren't supported at all, and while we had a few indie games they were tiny.

I can agree it wasn't great for people who played every day. Users who wanted to have some fun in their spare time could play many interesting games. Sometimes, I played something big like Sacred or indie games like the H-craft championship.

Linux users had commercial games that weren't even available for Mac. Amiga and MorphOS users could only dream about these games for Linux.

Desura and USC saw potential in Linux back then, but they failed. However, you can't say there was nothing to buy in these online stores.

On the other hand, online stores like Tux Games didn't have even 10% of all games available for Linux. There were websites like linuxgames.com or happypenguin.org. Unfortunately, they weren't always informed about all new commercial games for Linux, and tracking promotions was difficult. Now, you create wishlists with all interesting games to track promotions.

Quoting: Liam DaweGiven your previous posts, you just seem to be anti-Proton / Wine, which in 2024 I just find hilarious tbh. It's a button click to play stuff now, pretty much anything as long as it doesn't have anti-cheat. Proton is easy and it works well.

I'm not anti-Wine, and I use Wine only to open Windows installers for some open-source ports available for Linux. It usually works for this purpose. I don't have any expectations about Wine even If I think about Mohaa for Windows.

It's just not too entertaining for me to play games for Windows.


Last edited by gbudny on 22 February 2024 at 2:03 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudnyI saw many reports about issues with Proton.

You may want to check your sources, because the claims you're trying to perpetuate about it, whilst suggesting that you've never actually used it, don't stack up with reality.

Quoting: gbudnyI don't find playing games for Windows on Linux entertaining - it's boring to me.

But the OS it's made for is irrelevant to how the game plays...

Quoting: gbudnyWindows is better for these games, and above 90% of Windows users can confirm it - this operating system sells so well.

But why use Windows if you simply don't have to?

Quoting: gbudnyI click on my KVM or a remote control to use them, and I don't care about space in my apartment. I use one monitor to connect all old computers with the Geforce cards and Sound Blaster Live 5.1. I don't maintain operating systems on these computers. I install the NVidia drivers and later games for them - nothing more. I don't play multiplayer games, and I don't connect them to the internet.

Of course, keeping old computers functional sometimes could be challenging, but I like to keep them used. Users of the other operating systems and game consoles use them this way.

I'm glad you've got the space and enjoy them. My other half is the same on the consoles side of things.

Quoting: gbudnyI think long-term Windows users have fewer issues with Wine/Proton than people like me. I switched to Linux in 2004 after over a year of using it on my first computer.

I was not a long-term Windows user, nor a long-term MacOS user - I used a Commodore 64 for longer! It is NOT hard to use Proton.

Quoting: gbudnyI don't have to promote Microsoft because many users boot Windows when a game doesn't work well with Linux.

With all due respect, you often post to GamingOnLinux to tell people that they should use Windows instead of Proton, that people should use ancient unsupported distros to play older games, that you expect that a 2012 distro should be able to support games from 2055 as long as they don't use "Steam DRM" (and then requested that Liam and GOL users work to inform you about this), and that putting buggy broken unsupported old Linux-builds of games front-and-centre is preferable to just clicking to get a superior experience with a compatibility-tool that 99% of the time just-works - advice like this is what gives people a bad impression of modern-day Linux, and it sounds quite similar to the campaign that was implemented to destroy Linux netbooks. I'm sure that's not your intent, but that is how it comes across.

Quoting: gbudnyMicrosoft needs companies like CodeWeavers and Valve to get more money from Linux users and keep its position in the market.

But Microsoft isn't getting money from Valve and CodeWeavers for these projects, nor do they get paid by devs who make games on their OS. It's not like the console ecosystems, where fees are paid.

Quoting: gbudnyIt's good news for them when Linux users claim they only need games for Windows to run on them on Wine/Proton. Wine and Proton aren't Microsoft projects, but they help promote their technology among Linux users.

You're looking at it the wrong way - it primarily helps people who wish to leave an ecosystem that they don't wish to use anymore to transition smoothly to a new OS, and secondarily it just opens up more options for those of us who were already on Linux in the first place. As above with the Rabbit Phone example, people don't adopt technologies that they have to refactor their lives around.

Quoting: gbudnyI think it's far more important for Microsoft that Linux users have some doubts about all the work done by dead companies like Loki Software.

This feels like a real stretch into conspiracy territory - nobody is expressing any doubts about what past companies did, and I somehow doubt that companies that served a very tiny segment of a very tiny market have ever even been a blip on their radar. Let's not pretend that there was a golden utopia where we got all the AAAs before Proton came along, because that's simply not true.

Quoting: gbudnyI think about the open source libraries used in creating native games for Linux. This mistrust of Linux users to own companies is beneficial for Microsoft.

What mistrust? This sounds like it's being projected onto others where it simply doesn't exist.

Quoting: gbudnyOk.
I tried to install Medal of Honor on Wine from GOG. I can play the native version on my old computer, and I report bugs for OpenMOHAA, which added support for mods. It didn't work when I tried to run it, and after an hour of searching, I gave up on it. It was easier to use YouTube and see how this issue looks on Windows.

I was terrified because I was a Cedega subscriber in 2007. I had the same issue with Mohaa. Back then, I solved it after some time with some settings. It's disappointing how much Transgaming, CodeWeavers, and Valve invested in Wine, and Mohaa doesn't run after the installation.

That was a game officially supported by Transgaming, so it should have always worked since 2007.

You were talking about Proton and then swerved off here. You can't say "Well I couldn't make it work in a completely different tool!" to justify saying that people should use Windows to play Windows games and use ancient Linux distros and hardware instead of Proton. Wine on its own is not the same thing as Proton, and the means to use Proton outside of Steam has existed for some time.

Quoting: gbudnyYou can play it now on the old Linux distributions. I appreciate when Liam Dawe or Hamish Paul Wilson write articles about classic or indie games for Linux. In my opinion, it's important for me than games for Windows on Proton.

You said that to Liam Dawe himself.

Quoting: gbudnyI know users interested in the AAA titles on Proton could disagree with me - it's my preference when I play games.

And it's ours if we want to play something that would never be ported to Linux by anyone in a billion years or if we want to play older software where the native versions have been broken for years (I've got a couple of titles like that, from as recently as 2016 and 2018) without having to maintain ancient PCs, too.

Quoting: Liam DaweProton is easy and it works well.

I've got to admit, "Proton is hard to use!" is a new one on me.


Last edited by Pengling on 22 February 2024 at 1:52 pm UTC