Palworld dev details the patents Nintendo and The Pokemon Company are suing for

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Klaas

Quoting: PenglingNintendo behaving like they are here won't change any opinions over on that side of the fence, unfortunately.

That is unfortunately very obvious, since this is not the first time that they do what they usually do.

And it is the reason that I'm amused by the data-breach. Like the weird Sgt in It Ain't Half Hot Mum says – Oh dear, how sad, never mind. I wonder if they believe in Karma…

Well, since they're Japanese upwards mobilized peasants, I would guess they're practitioners of both Buddhism and Shintoism.
Specifically I think that they're Japanese pure land Buddhists and Shintoists.
Shintoism has no real definition of an afterlife.
Buddhism is quite clear about Karma and reincarnation.
Shintoists believe in ascension through effort.

I think they do believe in Karma, but my knowledge about Japanese religious practice is insufficient to determine whether this results in positive or negative Karma in their eyes if they do.

I think most Japanese people's caring about religion is limited to going to a temple at New Year's and deciding whether they want wedding pictures taken in a traditional Japanese look or a Christian/Western style bridal gown look.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Klaas

Quoting: PenglingNintendo behaving like they are here won't change any opinions over on that side of the fence, unfortunately.

That is unfortunately very obvious, since this is not the first time that they do what they usually do.

And it is the reason that I'm amused by the data-breach. Like the weird Sgt in It Ain't Half Hot Mum says – Oh dear, how sad, never mind. I wonder if they believe in Karma…

Well, since they're Japanese upwards mobilized peasants, I would guess they're practitioners of both Buddhism and Shintoism.
Specifically I think that they're Japanese pure land Buddhists and Shintoists.
Shintoism has no real definition of an afterlife.
Buddhism is quite clear about Karma and reincarnation.
Shintoists believe in ascension through effort.

I think they do believe in Karma, but my knowledge about Japanese religious practice is insufficient to determine whether this results in positive or negative Karma in their eyes if they do.

I think most Japanese people's caring about religion is limited to going to a temple at New Year's and deciding whether they want wedding pictures taken in a traditional Japanese look or a Christian/Western style bridal gown look.

That is really hard to see from statistics and I'm not Japanese myself.
As such I used anecdotal evidence and the stats to measure religious zeal.
My primary anecdotal "evidence". In this story the artist tells about their interactions with Japanese culture including some religious aspects.
My secondary anecdotal evidence is the persistence of religious themes in Japanese media such as manga and anime. Reincarnation in the form of those Shonen stories, gods and even the occasional kami, the common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god), the mention of Ki(although more in Korean media, but that's the most neighboring country to Japan so some cultural overlap is to be expected), etc.
Third I thought to be aware of several japanese technical steps based on the avoidance of certain themes thanks to their religion, such as high quality alternatives to leather seating, due to a high view of Animals and other pieces of nature and that their local high end watch brand produces watches themed on local nature, because of that same view.


It's at least big enough in Japan: to rebel against.

This is of course no proof, but now you can see how I came to a contrary conclusion to you.

Quoting: LoudTechieMy secondary anecdotal evidence is the persistence of religious themes in Japanese media such as manga and anime. Reincarnation in the form of those Shonen stories, gods and even the occasional kami, the common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god), the mention of Ki(although more in Korean media, but that's the most neighboring country to Japan so some cultural overlap is to be expected), etc.

Norse/Germanic gods and mythical beings feature prominently in modern Japanese popular fiction, but that doesn't mean they're all believers in the Æsir. (Who are not immortal by the way, even though they're Western gods.) There's also a plethora of demons, angels, golems, genies and other creatures from Christian, Jewish and Arabic lore. And Greek and Egyptian gods and monsters obviously. Religious myths are simply a goldmine for storytellers worldwide. I doubt that says much about the religious beliefs of the authors or the fans.

Quoting: LoudTechieIt's at least big enough in Japan: to rebel against.

This is of course no proof, but now you can see how I came to a contrary conclusion to you.

The same Wikipedia article provides the statistic that around 70% of Japanese have no personal faith (which is a higher percentage than most Western countries I think), although about the same percentage follow some Buddhist and Shinto traditions and rituals. So who knows. Maybe it's like many people around me who go to church for weddings and funerals, but only identify as Christian because they consider it their culture or heritage. By that I mean that if you asked which religion they identify with, they'd say Christian, but if you word the question slightly differently, they'd answer "not religious".

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: LoudTechieMy secondary anecdotal evidence is the persistence of religious themes in Japanese media such as manga and anime. Reincarnation in the form of those Shonen stories, gods and even the occasional kami, the common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god), the mention of Ki(although more in Korean media, but that's the most neighboring country to Japan so some cultural overlap is to be expected), etc.

Norse/Germanic gods and mythical beings feature prominently in modern Japanese popular fiction, but that doesn't mean they're all believers in the Æsir. (Who are not immortal by the way, even though they're Western gods.) There's also a plethora of demons, angels, golems, genies and other creatures from Christian, Jewish and Arabic lore. And Greek and Egyptian gods and monsters obviously. Religious myths are simply a goldmine for storytellers worldwide. I doubt that says much about the religious beliefs of the authors or the fans.

Quoting: LoudTechieIt's at least big enough in Japan: to rebel against.

This is of course no proof, but now you can see how I came to a contrary conclusion to you.

The same Wikipedia article provides the statistic that around 70% of Japanese have no personal faith (which is a higher percentage than most Western countries I think), although about the same percentage follow some Buddhist and Shinto traditions and rituals. So who knows. Maybe it's like many people around me who go to church for weddings and funerals, but only identify as Christian because they consider it their culture or heritage. By that I mean that if you asked which religion they identify with, they'd say Christian, but if you word the question slightly differently, they'd answer "not religious".

Or it could be like in western countries where many people who call themselves atheists are deep believers in Karma(although often in the more short term judaistic sense, but they use the word Karma for it, so I use the word to describe their belief), homeopathy, meditation and sometimes even astrology.
That's the problem with trying to analyze these kind of statistics.
All I've to go on is cultural depiction, statistics, movement advertisement, external anecdotes and the logic behind innovation, but all of these are culturally influenced.
I try not to project that what I see in western countries on barely related cultures.
It's why I've the tendency to grab untrustworthy sources like this, you might have access to expert opinions and/or money flow data(if lots of thinly spread money goes to something it's either the local alternative to government or popular) but I wouldn't know where to look.


Edit: finally found an expert opinion(about Shinto specifically): Shinto is more focused on ritual rather than doctrine.
That seems to indeed imply that it influences the parties and some daily life, but not external behavior too intensely, so I don't expect Nintendo to behave much differently if they do or don't believe in Karma.
The problem with ritual religions like that is that it's practically indistinguishable from pure culture.

I don't think anybody can conclusively answer whether most Japanese do or don't believe in Karma, so lets take it as: "no, LoudTechie is wrong.


Last edited by LoudTechie on 11 November 2024 at 4:31 pm UTC

Quoting: LoudTechiethe common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god)

That's not really a religious thing - you might find this documentary video on the topic to be an interesting watch!

Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: LoudTechiethe common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god)

That's not really a religious thing - you might find this documentary video on the topic to be an interesting watch!

I actually watched that video and to me its proof of my edit.
Those Gods are often representations of systems, but Shinto and even Buddhism to a lesser extent are polytheistic nature religions. All "Gods" in those religion are Gods of something: rivers, places, fishing, etc., but they're still seen as actual beings that can directly interact with you, have supernatural powers and can have something for and against you.
They're also often limited to their "aspect", but that depends on the religion.
That's the thing.
In external literature ritual religious practice can be indistinguishable from metaphor.

Edit: also I didn't consider it in my earlier considerations, because I couldn't find the source(I've been too often asked for sources I forgot), thnx.

Also what doesn't help is that I've seen varying authors and people in my surroundings embed religious practice on differing levels of subtlety in their work(not everyone feels as comfortable comfortable admitting they practice their religion).

In general I try to do detection this way:
look at the early work, determine religious themes(Nintendo is too old and personally diverse to determine the "early work"(Mario isn't early work, it's early work in the American market) reliable. Niantic had quite some "ki" like religious themes especially in their fire Pokemon), look at how much and which detailed knowledge of certain religious doctrine is needed to produce this(a high amount implies a member of the (counter) movement and the kind of knowledge can be used to find the counter part) and read if available author commentary.


Last edited by LoudTechie on 12 November 2024 at 11:46 am UTC

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: LoudTechiethe common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god)

That's not really a religious thing - you might find this documentary video on the topic to be an interesting watch!

I actually watched that video and to me its proof of my edit.
Those Gods are often representations of systems, but Shinto and even Buddhism to a lesser extent are polytheistic nature religions. All "Gods" in those religion are Gods of something: rivers, places, fishing, etc., but they're still seen as actual beings that can directly interact with you, have supernatural powers and can have something for and against you.
They're also often limited to their "aspect", but that depends on the religion.
That's the thing.
In external literature ritual religious practice can be indistinguishable from metaphor.

Edit: also I didn't consider it in my earlier considerations, because I couldn't find the source(I've been too often asked for sources I forgot), thnx.

Also what doesn't help is that I've seen varying authors and people in my surroundings embed religious practice on differing levels of subtlety in their work(not everyone feels as comfortable comfortable admitting they practice their religion).

In general I try to do detection this way:
look at the early work, determine religious themes(Nintendo is too old and personally diverse to determine the "early work"(Mario isn't early work, it's early work in the American market) reliable. Niantic had quite some "ki" like religious themes especially in their fire Pokemon), look at how much and which detailed knowledge of certain religious doctrine is needed to produce this(a high amount implies a member of the (counter) movement and the kind of knowledge can be used to find the counter part) and read if available author commentary.

To me religion operating as literary source material does not imply practicing or believing in the religion. Westerners use Shakespeare and the Roman empire (both its religion and its institutions) as literary source material a lot, but nobody worships Shakespeare. And while there are lessons to be drawn from Shakespeare (e.g. don't divide your kingdom between your children) I feel it's less a matter of Shakespeare shaping our thinking than Shakespeare making a good source for ideas we'd find some way to access anyway. For that matter, I feel even Western strongly believing Christians are more likely to be thinking a certain way and finding ways to get Christianity to back up their ideas, than having their ideas shaped by religion. The extreme example is certain American right wing Christians whose reaction upon being read the Sermon on the Mount is that it's woke propaganda and can't possibly have anything to do with (their version of) Christianity.

So, sure, Japan has some religions. And non-religious Japanese people certainly draw on the religion for literary inspiration--it's the body of myth they have most available, of course they're going to use it. But does it shape their thinking, or do they pour it into the shape of the thinking they already have?

Quoting: LoudTechieI don't expect Nintendo to behave much differently if they do or don't believe in Karma.

There's a hidden assumption underpinning this discussion, which is that "everyone, including Nintendo, see what they're doing as bad". "No one at Nintendo believes in karma" is externally indistinguishable from "Everyone at Nintendo firmly believes in karma (to the point where it strongly affects all their actions) AND they see what they're doing as morally good".

Quoting: Purple Library GuyTo me religion operating as literary source material does not imply practicing or believing in the religion.

A good example is the term "mana," which comes directly from indigenous Polynesian religions where it means a person's latent personal spiritual power. There are native practitioners today who sincerely believe in it, but I rather doubt that the innumerable games with "mana potions" and such imply all their developers are followers – most of them probably don't even know where it comes from. (Much like having an "avatar" doesn't imply a belief in Hinduism.)

Quoting: WYWNintendo have become such scum bags, it's unreal.

It's not Unreal, they use their own game engine

It's also not ScummVM


Last edited by Marlock on 12 November 2024 at 8:51 pm UTC

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: LoudTechiethe common theme of slaying and becoming Gods(uncommon in western media, since in western religious practice gods are supposed to be immortal(has its root in the early days of Christianity and greek philosopher discussions), while in Shinto one can become and kill a god)

That's not really a religious thing - you might find this documentary video on the topic to be an interesting watch!

I actually watched that video and to me its proof of my edit.
Those Gods are often representations of systems, but Shinto and even Buddhism to a lesser extent are polytheistic nature religions. All "Gods" in those religion are Gods of something: rivers, places, fishing, etc., but they're still seen as actual beings that can directly interact with you, have supernatural powers and can have something for and against you.
They're also often limited to their "aspect", but that depends on the religion.
That's the thing.
In external literature ritual religious practice can be indistinguishable from metaphor.

Edit: also I didn't consider it in my earlier considerations, because I couldn't find the source(I've been too often asked for sources I forgot), thnx.

Also what doesn't help is that I've seen varying authors and people in my surroundings embed religious practice on differing levels of subtlety in their work(not everyone feels as comfortable comfortable admitting they practice their religion).

In general I try to do detection this way:
look at the early work, determine religious themes(Nintendo is too old and personally diverse to determine the "early work"(Mario isn't early work, it's early work in the American market) reliable. Niantic had quite some "ki" like religious themes especially in their fire Pokemon), look at how much and which detailed knowledge of certain religious doctrine is needed to produce this(a high amount implies a member of the (counter) movement and the kind of knowledge can be used to find the counter part) and read if available author commentary.

To me religion operating as literary source material does not imply practicing or believing in the religion. Westerners use Shakespeare and the Roman empire (both its religion and its institutions) as literary source material a lot, but nobody worships Shakespeare. And while there are lessons to be drawn from Shakespeare (e.g. don't divide your kingdom between your children) I feel it's less a matter of Shakespeare shaping our thinking than Shakespeare making a good source for ideas we'd find some way to access anyway. For that matter, I feel even Western strongly believing Christians are more likely to be thinking a certain way and finding ways to get Christianity to back up their ideas, than having their ideas shaped by religion. The extreme example is certain American right wing Christians whose reaction upon being read the Sermon on the Mount is that it's woke propaganda and can't possibly have anything to do with (their version of) Christianity.

So, sure, Japan has some religions. And non-religious Japanese people certainly draw on the religion for literary inspiration--it's the body of myth they have most available, of course they're going to use it. But does it shape their thinking, or do they pour it into the shape of the thinking they already have?

As I stated at the bottom the way I look at it is everyone can use religious themes, but only those with a lot of experience with said religion can without breaking the canon refer large parts of the canon.
So yes an atheist can easily make a religious reference, maybe even accidental, but only (anti-)theists will (in that religion)canonically consistent refer in larger scale refer to obscure and less obscure parts of that canon(except in settings where the religious theme is important, because authors can do research).

In Buddhist context: having a reincarnated MCU isn't indicative, but having a high school MCU refer to the ever turning wheel, fail to achieve a task reliant on letting go because they love somebody, make lelies grow while they walk over water and eat vegetarian to achieve special powers is according to me indicative.
In Christian/Judaist context: having an angel isn't indicative, but having a science fiction MCU make a riddle based on a hornets nest in the mouth of lion they killed for a bet in clothing and have a donkey mouth bone as a signature weapon is according to me indicative.
In Islamic context: having a Genie isn't indicative, but having a spy hide from a rampaging mob behind in a hastily spider webbed cage, claim unbelievable claims are backed up by an unrelated minority group and have a ring that controls multiple Genies is according to me indicative.

You don't have to believe people change their behavior based on their faith for this, just that they learn more about their religious canon than about the religious canon of anybody else(it's harder to reference something you've never heard about).

The reason I stay to early work is that those works are less tuned to the audience, because the writer doesn't know yet who will be their audience.

For this reason I didn't use this method on Nintendo, because I actually don't know any "not yet audience tuned" work of them, so I used population statistics and Japanese/Nintendo history.