There's a whole bunch of hints and speculation going around right now, showing that Valve may be working towards a new kind of Steam Machine. Suddenly, their new Steam Controller 2 that was leaked, along with the new SteamOS branding guidelines make a whole lot more sense if this is true.
While the SteamOS branding mentions third-party vendors using it, and we know they're working towards releasing SteamOS for other hardware vendors for their handhelds, having a standard way to show it also helps Valve keep it the same across multiple of their own devices.
As for the Steam Controller 2, it makes even more sense with this because otherwise the target for people to buy it would have been reasonably small. Sure there's all the people with a Steam Deck, but it would be only a percentage of people with one that would buy a Steam Controller 2, and a lot of other people on PC already have their preferred gamepad. So, having a fresh Steam Machine would pretty much need a dedicated controller, unless Valve bundled it with a third-party controller, but that leaves Valve at the mercy of another hardware vendor on features and support.
The speculation and leaks on some form of new Steam Machine from Valve come initially from a Reddit post, where a user pointed out a change to the Linux kernel used by Steam Deck / SteamOS. It mentions a change for HDMI CEC for Fremont, with code that references AMD Lilac. Lilac on Geekbench being a mixture of different AMD chips like the Ryzen 8540U and Ryzen 7735HS.
On X / Twitter, VR enthusiast Brad Lynch mentioned in a thread after more digging through Valve's code noting "But also that Quanta Computer, Valve’s Steam Deck manufacturer, is giving feedback on it" and "All references to Fremont ensure checks for a full-size HDMI Type-A port you’d see on TV-focused consoles and other desktop computers that don’t have a dedicated GPU with its own HDMI ports". Lynch is the one that has been covering a lot of the leaks for the upcoming Valve Deckard VR headset.
November next year will also mark 10 years since Valve's original Steam Machine launch. That would be a pretty good time for Valve to announce something don't you think?
Things have changed dramatically since the original failure of the Steam Machine launch, which kicked off Valve's effort on everything that made up the Steam Deck. We have Proton now, the real important bit, which runs tens of thousands of Windows games and Proton compatibility is continuously improving to the point where so many games really do just work (but we still have the anti-cheat problem). We have another big update to Proton 9 coming soon too.
It's going to be really interesting to see what becomes of all this. Very exciting time to be a Linux / SteamOS gamer.
What do you think this is all for? Leave a comment with your thoughts.
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Why would that change anything? It'd be no different to when Windows XP reached end-of-life, or Windows 7, or Windows 8... People will just move over to Windows 11 or whatever they're up to now, just like the gullible sheep they are.
I don't expect huge amounts of people changing over either, but the big difference is that for all those Windows versions, you usually could just install the new version on your old computer. With Windows 11, the requirements are quite strict, and while you might be able to trick the installer, MS does not promise updates for unsupported system, so this is a dangerous path.
So, the question has changed for many people. It's not "Should I install the new Windows on my old computer?", but "Do I really want to replace my still good enough computer just to install the new Windows?!?" And even if the answer is yes, then they have a spare computer which they might use to check out this Linux thing.
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Valve really need to address this... Most (all?) of the "anti-cheat" systems natively support Linux-based operating systems - but almost all of the developers behind them flat-out refuse to implement their own "anti-cheat" systems for gaming under Linux.
really? valve only did deals with 2 anti cheat providers to support linux, everything else that work just happens to work and not be blocked.
https://areweanticheatyet.com/
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Valve has proved to a mass market that their idea works with the SteamDeck.
Consumers should be a lot less sceptical about what a Steam Console without windows is capable of, Proton has now proven itself capable and has been accepted as such for anything outside the anti-cheat MMO’s.
Now if they can only get the pricing right, as they did on the SteamDeck then we have a gaming computer that can play the majority of PC games, and is priced competitively with building your own PC. Also functions well as a console. Whole different story to the first Steam Machines.
I would say it will only work if Valve are producing the hardware themselves but would love to be proved wrong.
i dont think the issue was the fact that steam machines run on top of linux, playstation run on top of bsd (wich had less games than linux, outside of the console) and yet, no one cared about, because it had games and the marketing of the games noticed the fact that its avaliable on playstation, the marketing of playstation quoted the games you can play on it, and it had exclusives.
no one cares what operating system an hardware have, so longas they know there is content they want there (or the content they want is there)
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Mohandevir 9 Dec 2024
Valve has proved to a mass market that their idea works with the SteamDeck.
Consumers should be a lot less sceptical about what a Steam Console without windows is capable of, Proton has now proven itself capable and has been accepted as such for anything outside the anti-cheat MMO’s.
Now if they can only get the pricing right, as they did on the SteamDeck then we have a gaming computer that can play the majority of PC games, and is priced competitively with building your own PC. Also functions well as a console. Whole different story to the first Steam Machines.
I would say it will only work if Valve are producing the hardware themselves but would love to be proved wrong.
i dont think the issue was the fact that steam machines run on top of linux, playstation run on top of bsd (wich had less games than linux, outside of the console) and yet, no one cared about, because it had games and the marketing of the games noticed the fact that its avaliable on playstation, the marketing of playstation quoted the games you can play on it, and it had exclusives.
no one cares what operating system an hardware have, so longas they know there is content they want there (or the content they want is there)
The "Steam Machines 2" will probably attract the same audience that got the Steam Deck. Many of them got introduced to PC gaming via the Steam Deck. I'll be one of them because, lately, I do not have much use for a full fledged PC under my desk. It's solely used for work and it's supplied by my company. When it comes to gaming, I sit back in my couch and play with my Steam Deck, locally or via Moonlight/Sunshine, depending on the game, because I have no better solution. Hooking my personal full tower gaming PC to my TV is a no go. I'd prefer to have a small dedicated console or an egpu docking station, for the Steam Deck 2 (maybe?), to play in 1080p-60hz (minimum). I'm probably not the only one.
Last edited by Mohandevir on 9 Dec 2024 at 9:39 pm UTC
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I think they will approach the market with this same modesty and probing it will reveal at least millions of sales if the price is able to be competitive.i dont think so.
the hardware need to be good, and if they cant have the economics of scale that sony and microsoft have, i doubt they can make a competitive hardware for a competitive price.
not to mention, steamdeck had a lot of games that you couldnt play on the go on switch or anywhere else, the same cant be said about an living room device.
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I think they will approach the market with this same modesty and probing it will reveal at least millions of sales if the price is able to be competitive.i dont think so.
the hardware need to be good, and if they cant have the economics of scale that sony and microsoft have, i doubt they can make a competitive hardware for a competitive price.
not to mention, steamdeck had a lot of games that you couldnt play on the go on switch or anywhere else, the same cant be said about an living room device.
PS5 has 813 games. Foremont + SteamController2 will certainly let you play games you couldn't play on any other console like device, unless you build one yourself. The PC ecosystem has huge advantages over traditional walled garden console ecosystems and console exclusives are less of an issue then ever before.
It could also once again be a device for game developers to target, this time for PCVR performance, which could give PCVR a big boost.
With the SteamDeck, Valve tricked traditional economics of scale by taking the risk of preordering a huge chunk of APUs. That worked damn well for them, so why would they not do it again? My guess is foremont will be a lot cheaper then a Laptop or ready made microPC with similar performance.
Last edited by const on 10 Dec 2024 at 9:09 am UTC
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PS5 has 813 games. Foremont + SteamController2 will certainly let you play games you couldn't play on any other console like device, unless you build one yourself. The PC ecosystem has huge advantages over traditional walled garden console ecosystems and console exclusives are less of an issue then ever before.on paper, the steamdeck is better than the switch on every aspect, it could even emulate switch... in pratice, nintendo sell much more than the deck, so no, being a better product is not enough, it never was.
It could also once again be a device for game developers to target, this time for PCVR performance, which could give PCVR a big boost.
sure its a bit different on home consoles, because they cant afford to make exclusives anymore, they are porting to pc mostly because the cost of production of games is too expensive to keep then locked to a platform, yet i feel that if sony have to chose between help an competitor or not, they will chose not to, they will delay the port to pc or stop it altogheter and valve already comited to not making exclusives.
it may be sound crazy, but taking an cut of 30% of every game sold on playstation is more profitable than porting their games to pc, and pc was a different market, pc gamers were unlikely to move so it didnt affected playstation sales in the past, it will be different with a home console from valve, not to mention that now that pc gamers know sony exclusives, some of then might like it enough to purchase an playstation in case the game sequels stop coming to pc.
With the SteamDeck, Valve tricked traditional economics of scale by taking the risk of preordering a huge chunk of APUs. That worked damn well for them, so why would they not do it again? My guess is foremont will be a lot cheaper then a Laptop or ready made microPC with similar performance.pre ordering,sure, but if they cant sell then, this preorder will be a big loss of revenue for valve.
sony can preorder and keep lowering the cost of production over the generation due to the massive sales, then they can cut the price if nescessary and invest tons of money for the next generation.
valve ould compete with the switch in terms of power, but switch was over 7 years old and never bet in power, i doubt valve can do it again against sony and specially microsoft that can do tons of dumping.
as for the steam console having a big library, for microsoft its not a problem, then can flip a switch and allow windows games to run on xbox, they just dont want to accept other stores, but they can do better deals of revenue split to entice more people to "port" their games, and accept every other store but steam.
not to mention, bigger library didnt translated into sales for the deck over the switch so this might repeat against playstation.
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The moment they do this, I’m done buying consoles!
Then again, to be honest, I'm probably done buying consoles anyway. I've bought and used a NES, PS2, WII, PS4 and PS5. I've also played on a few other consoles from friends, like the Atari, MSX, Master System, Mega Drive, N64 and PS1. They were all fun, but I've always also had a thing for PC Games (even from the DOS era), emulators, game modding and more recently Steam.
Given Valve's history, I expect a Steam Console of their design being released this year or the next to check certain boxes that will make it undeniably great (even if not perfect for everyone):
Hardware
Software
ps:
i highly doubt it will sell as much as a PS5 or the newest-gen Xbox... but even 10% of that is already a huge success for linux, for PC gaming, for more open gaming platforms, etc
it will set a second tier of PC-gaming hardware perf targets for most games and will make game devs even more prone to paying attention to linux and SteamOS compatibility, ease of use of PC games with fully-remappable controllers, etc
Last edited by Marlock on 15 Dec 2024 at 4:42 pm UTC
Then again, to be honest, I'm probably done buying consoles anyway. I've bought and used a NES, PS2, WII, PS4 and PS5. I've also played on a few other consoles from friends, like the Atari, MSX, Master System, Mega Drive, N64 and PS1. They were all fun, but I've always also had a thing for PC Games (even from the DOS era), emulators, game modding and more recently Steam.
Given Valve's history, I expect a Steam Console of their design being released this year or the next to check certain boxes that will make it undeniably great (even if not perfect for everyone):
Hardware
- pre-built
- compact
- quiet
- cost-effective specs
- repairable and upgradeable
i can build my own, but this helps the majority of people who wouldn't even know where to start, not even to order it from a tech store that can build one for them
more so than a custom-built tower (ballpark PS5-size), probably good-looking design but mainly just more discreet and easier to fit anywhere in vertical and/or horizontal positions
not totally silent but really quiet, like the PS5 vs. a traditional PC tower
not the best CPU or GPU there is, but undeniably strong ones at their pricepoint and strong enough for most games in nice image settings with good FPS (likely to be a 60FPS target this time)
mostly with standard PC/laptop parts, though i expect not entirely (like pre-built PCs from Dell, HP, etc)... definitely no glued parts, and possibly some open-licensed blueprints
Software
- SteamOS preinstalled
- Easy OS Unlocking
- Open Bootloader
- Gaming Mode
- Optimized Perf
- Desktop Mode
power on, log in, update, play... almost as little fuss as with a traditional console (but there will probably be a couple more papercuts in the UI/UX that will remain in there for a looong time because Valve sure loves some of those)
Same as on the Steam Deck, they're likely to ship a locked system image but with an official, easy and well-documented unlocking path that doesn't void warranty and support... i'd love if they let it follow a traditional linux package updates cycle instead of a monolythic upgrades cycle like android, but pretty sure they'll keed using the current method
Other linux distros and windows 11 will work from day 1, but may be missing OS support for a couple things at that point... these things will eventually find their way into ChimaeraOS and other gaming-oriented distros even before Valve upstreams them (which they will, as they've been doing with the Steam Deck)
available, booting to it by default and delivering a heck of a nice perf boost... this along Steam as a fullscreen-UI is why SteamOS can be seen as a console instead of just a PC in the living-room
better on SteamOS than on windows (and improving over time, as was done with the Steam Deck), not just because of Gaming Mode, but because of their constant thinkering in the Linux Kernel, GPU drivers, shader compilers, Proton, DXVK, etc... it will probably still be better on SteamOS than other linux distros, but not as much a difference as it was with the Deck at launch
same stuff as now, maybe easier to reach and more prominently offered in their default UI, hopefully more complete... it added a WOW factor in the Steam Deck, even though it wasn't easy to navigate with built-in controls in a handheld... and I expect it to make more waves among console gamers who are missing the modding scene from PCs, or want their consoles to double-down as a media center, always-on files/downloads server, etc
ps:
i highly doubt it will sell as much as a PS5 or the newest-gen Xbox... but even 10% of that is already a huge success for linux, for PC gaming, for more open gaming platforms, etc
it will set a second tier of PC-gaming hardware perf targets for most games and will make game devs even more prone to paying attention to linux and SteamOS compatibility, ease of use of PC games with fully-remappable controllers, etc
Last edited by Marlock on 15 Dec 2024 at 4:42 pm UTC
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As with the Deck, Foremont will not be about market dominance. The SteamDeck was a huge success, even if it doesn't compare to Switch sales. Valves goal will likely be to showcase a SteamOS based console that shows it's enjoyable and comfortable. At the same time it will be an easy upgrade route for those who only own a Deck or Deckard.PS5 has 813 games. Foremont + SteamController2 will certainly let you play games you couldn't play on any other console like device, unless you build one yourself. The PC ecosystem has huge advantages over traditional walled garden console ecosystems and console exclusives are less of an issue then ever before.on paper, the steamdeck is better than the switch on every aspect, it could even emulate switch... in pratice, nintendo sell much more than the deck, so no, being a better product is not enough, it never was.
It could also once again be a device for game developers to target, this time for PCVR performance, which could give PCVR a big boost.
sure its a bit different on home consoles, because they cant afford to make exclusives anymore, they are porting to pc mostly because the cost of production of games is too expensive to keep then locked to a platform, yet i feel that if sony have to chose between help an competitor or not, they will chose not to, they will delay the port to pc or stop it altogheter and valve already comited to not making exclusives.
it may be sound crazy, but taking an cut of 30% of every game sold on playstation is more profitable than porting their games to pc, and pc was a different market, pc gamers were unlikely to move so it didnt affected playstation sales in the past, it will be different with a home console from valve, not to mention that now that pc gamers know sony exclusives, some of then might like it enough to purchase an playstation in case the game sequels stop coming to pc.
With the SteamDeck, Valve tricked traditional economics of scale by taking the risk of preordering a huge chunk of APUs. That worked damn well for them, so why would they not do it again? My guess is foremont will be a lot cheaper then a Laptop or ready made microPC with similar performance.pre ordering,sure, but if they cant sell then, this preorder will be a big loss of revenue for valve.
sony can preorder and keep lowering the cost of production over the generation due to the massive sales, then they can cut the price if nescessary and invest tons of money for the next generation.
valve ould compete with the switch in terms of power, but switch was over 7 years old and never bet in power, i doubt valve can do it again against sony and specially microsoft that can do tons of dumping.
as for the steam console having a big library, for microsoft its not a problem, then can flip a switch and allow windows games to run on xbox, they just dont want to accept other stores, but they can do better deals of revenue split to entice more people to "port" their games, and accept every other store but steam.
not to mention, bigger library didnt translated into sales for the deck over the switch so this might repeat against playstation.
Regarding your "XBox could just allow windows games" argument - hard no, they can't. Imagine all XBox users suddenly need to look up Xbox equivalent of ProtonDB to check GameXs compatibility state. SteamDeck has shown there is more to running a game on a console applience then binary compatibility and not even that is guaranteed. OpenGL and Vulkan games exist and we are still talking console hardware and OS. Also MS doesn't care about Windows and if they loose the walled garden on XBox, why would they care for that any more. Doesn't make sense for them. And it would also meen Steam on XBox, so who would have won that fight? :D
Last edited by const on 16 Dec 2024 at 11:04 am UTC
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Regarding your "XBox could just allow windows games" argument - hard no, they can't. Imagine all XBox users suddenly need to look up Xbox equivalent of ProtonDB to check GameXs compatibility state.they dont need to run the game, but they might need something akin to playable/verified to know it the user experience is designed for the living room.
SteamDeck has shown there is more to running a game on a console applience then binary compatibility and not even that is guaranteed.sure but we still dont know the numbers, other than more than 1 million and likely more than their competition.
OpenGL and Vulkan games exist and we are still talking console hardware and OS. Also MS doesn't care about Windows and if they loose the walled garden on XBox, why would they care for that any more. Doesn't make sense for them. And it would also meen Steam on XBox, so who would have won that fight? :Dwhy wouldnt microsoft care about windows? it makes then tons of money, xbox making more money than windows is a new thing, not the expected behavior and no guarantee that things will stay like that.
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what Microsoft does care is that games are bought from them so they get a cut, instead of through Steam
that is precisely why Valve invested in Linux, so that Microsoft couldn't simply pull the rug from under them and make it hard/impossible to sell steam games on windows instead of via Microsoft Store
MS did try this, if you're old enough to remember when Win8 was launched and they tried to make all windows apps into UWP apps instead of .exes
And that was when Gabe went public to criticize them for the attempt, and started investing heavily on linux to build a viable alternative on it
So yeah, even if only 1% of steam users buy one of those, each steam gamer coming from Windows into that new platform is a huge win for (almost) everyone (except microsoft)
It helps put SteamOS / Linux on the map for PC and Console gamers, gaming news, gaming forums, game dev studios, engine devs, etc and thus helps break us free from the Chicken&Egg trap linux gaming has always been under
ps: We do have ballpark figures for Steam Deck units sold up to 2023
https://www.gameslearningsociety.org/how-many-steam-decks-have-been-sold/
We also have a pretty good idea the percentage of custom AMD GPUs of the exact model used in the Steam Deck as they appear in the Steam Survey, how many of those use linux nowadays or were switched to windows, how many of the total linux machines in the survey use that GPU, and how many linux machines are there compared to windows
At the end of 2024, assuming sales per year haven't increased but also haven't decreased from 2022 and 2023 that gives us this ballpark figures:
~5 million steam decks sold
~10 million linux machines/users on steam (because iirc currently around half linux survey responses are decks)
~500 million total steam machines/users worldwide (because iirc currently around 2% are linux on the survey)
if the new steam console tower sells half as much as steam decks it's upwards of 2 million units sold and another 0,5% linux users, a big fat round of news articles, tweaked/optimized/fixed titles, etc
that's all we can hope for, and it's plenty!
other than that, most win10 users will probably buy new hardware or go exclusively mobile, but as the steam deck and steam console hit the news, a small batch of folks bitten by microsoft will at least give something else a go... 0,5% of them is not a lot, but it added to the console itself may well help linux into the 3% zone
that is precisely why Valve invested in Linux, so that Microsoft couldn't simply pull the rug from under them and make it hard/impossible to sell steam games on windows instead of via Microsoft Store
MS did try this, if you're old enough to remember when Win8 was launched and they tried to make all windows apps into UWP apps instead of .exes
And that was when Gabe went public to criticize them for the attempt, and started investing heavily on linux to build a viable alternative on it
So yeah, even if only 1% of steam users buy one of those, each steam gamer coming from Windows into that new platform is a huge win for (almost) everyone (except microsoft)
It helps put SteamOS / Linux on the map for PC and Console gamers, gaming news, gaming forums, game dev studios, engine devs, etc and thus helps break us free from the Chicken&Egg trap linux gaming has always been under
ps: We do have ballpark figures for Steam Deck units sold up to 2023
https://www.gameslearningsociety.org/how-many-steam-decks-have-been-sold/
We also have a pretty good idea the percentage of custom AMD GPUs of the exact model used in the Steam Deck as they appear in the Steam Survey, how many of those use linux nowadays or were switched to windows, how many of the total linux machines in the survey use that GPU, and how many linux machines are there compared to windows
At the end of 2024, assuming sales per year haven't increased but also haven't decreased from 2022 and 2023 that gives us this ballpark figures:
~5 million steam decks sold
~10 million linux machines/users on steam (because iirc currently around half linux survey responses are decks)
~500 million total steam machines/users worldwide (because iirc currently around 2% are linux on the survey)
if the new steam console tower sells half as much as steam decks it's upwards of 2 million units sold and another 0,5% linux users, a big fat round of news articles, tweaked/optimized/fixed titles, etc
that's all we can hope for, and it's plenty!
other than that, most win10 users will probably buy new hardware or go exclusively mobile, but as the steam deck and steam console hit the news, a small batch of folks bitten by microsoft will at least give something else a go... 0,5% of them is not a lot, but it added to the console itself may well help linux into the 3% zone
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Cyba.Cowboy 2 Jan 2025
Proton has now proven itself capable and has been accepted as such for anything outside the anti-cheat MMO’s.
Most of these actually support Linux-based operating systems natively... It's just the incompetent developers like Epic Games that have no faith in the quality of their own work who are stopping this from being used en mass under Linux-based operating systems.
Anticheat BS might solve itself when behavior based AI solutions roll out or anyone builds an equivalent to the userspace observer Microsoft announced and hopefully our market share grows further.
Or they could just pay people to work alongside the anti-cheat (which already works under Linux-based operating systems)... A quick search shows that the typical number of concurrent players on Fortnite: Battle Royale over the last 30 days was 2,149; if you have a person monitoring say, ten gamers each, that's just 225 staff.
Not a lot of staff for a company the size of Epic Games, that is making billions of dollars a year just off Fortnite: Battle Royale (i.e. not even including all their other games).
Or they could just go the easy route and make multiplayer locked to same-platform multiplayer (i.e. Steam Deck users can only compete against others using Linux-based operating systems). I know that Fortnite: Battle Royale already supports this (it's in the game settings), and I suspect others do; so it wouldn't be difficult to implement this as a forced restriction under Linux-based operating systems.
(but there will probably be a couple more papercuts in the UI/UX that will remain in there for a looong time because Valve sure loves some of those)
What do you mean "Valve sure loves some of those"? In its default configuration, I am yet to see any of the bugs, design flaws or quirks typically associated with a Linux-based operating system in SteamOS; for all intents and purposes, the Steam Deck is of the same (software) standard as a handheld console from "The Big Three".
i highly doubt it will sell as much as a PS5 or the newest-gen Xbox...
Maybe if a new Steam Machine was released in its current state... But if Valve Software were to somehow convince developers to actually use their anti-cheat software (most of which natively support Linux-based operating systems), then "The Big Three" should be awfully worried about the future of console gaming.
but even 10% of that is already a huge success for linux, for PC gaming, for more open gaming platforms, etc
it will set a second tier of PC-gaming hardware perf targets for most games and will make game devs even more prone to paying attention to linux and SteamOS compatibility, ease of use of PC games with fully-remappable controllers, etc
Can't argue with this, because this is exactly what would happen... And it'd go a long way to solving the "chicken and egg" problem.
MS did try this, if you're old enough to remember when Win8 was launched and they tried to make all windows apps into UWP apps instead of .exes
And that was when Gabe went public to criticize them for the attempt, and started investing heavily on linux to build a viable alternative on it
Exactly.
SteamOS and the Steam Machines were originally intended to be a "safety blanket" for if Microsoft did something "out there" and significantly hurt Valve Software's business model (which at the time, looked like it might be the case in the near future)... But Gabe quickly saw "the big picture", and it evolved into a long-term project to be less reliant one third-parties like Microsoft.
First and foremost, this is about being self-reliant for Valve Software; the fact that they're doing this using a Linux-based operating system (which is the most logical choice, anyway) is just an added bonus for us Linux gamers and gamers in general.
Last edited by Cyba.Cowboy on 2 Jan 2025 at 7:45 am UTC
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