Asking us to never close comments is asking us to allow GOL to turn into a hell-hole though. We are moderated, always have been and always will. We have to take a stand somewhere and we can't please everyone, all of the time. Certainly not perfect at it, fully admit there's plenty of room to improve.

QuoteOur community is civil enough to handle themselves

It really isn't. The amount of times we've had to warn people, remove comments or edit comments because of personalized attacks I lost count on a long time ago. It's not about having faith, it's the fact that I've moderated the community for a very long time and I've seen how these things go. It was not an attempt to censor people, it was me wanting to get some thoughts out there and not have the discussion descend into what crap it usually does.

We let people mostly get their thoughts out on all this in the previous article before closing it. Could this have been handled better? Perhaps.

I get there's strong feelings on all sides on this. As always, I will be taking feedback on board on how we proceed in future. It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Thanks for the calm post on it, I've taken some rather colourful messages about all this today.

As long as people remain respectful this forum topic can stay open to have a productive chat about it. Believe me, I want to have the best community possible.

This is a very black and white representation of things. In fact, your poll is a purely black and white question on things that are ultimately grey. And so I won't vote.

Calling it censorship is taking a big leap. You're not prevented from discussing anything, just from discussing it in that location. So unless anything actually gets deleted for no other reason that opinion, nothing has been censored.

Suggesting that you should allow everything is a very easy thing to say. Everybody knows that certain topics invite people that, how shall I put it... fail to remain diplomatic. That means there will need for moderation. An unfortunately reality. Should Liam just be sitting there for two days just moderating the comments on a thread that ultimately has nothing to do with Linux gaming? Does not really sound like the most useful thing to do.

What you want is a fantasy. There is no black and white in this world. Only a huge sea of grey. Perfect solutions aren't available and you can only try to get as close as possible. And sometimes this means having to get rid of something that is not part of the main focus of this site. And sure, you could argue that he invited it by taking a stand on the topic. But that doesn't really change much in practice. And in parallel with Linux, if you don't agree, you can always try it yourself and see if it works out for you.

QuoteI get there's strong feelings on all sides on this. As always, I will be taking feedback on board on how we proceed in future. It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Maybe the solution is to not cover e-drama. I'd wager people on this site have either already heard all about it from their favourite general gaming news outlet, or are deliberately not reading these anymore because they are full of opinion pieces, politics, controversies and whatnot.

Quoting: kshade

QuoteI get there's strong feelings on all sides on this. As always, I will be taking feedback on board on how we proceed in future. It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Maybe the solution is to not cover e-drama. I'd wager people on this site have either already heard all about it from their favourite general gaming news outlet, or are deliberately not reading these anymore because they are full of opinion pieces, politics, controversies and whatnot.

Really, it seems people are more annoyed about the comments being closed than us actually writing about it.

There's a lot of angry people on Reddit though, some taking it waaaaay overboard considering my actual thoughts on the matter consisted of a single line at the end...

We can say there are two issues with this, and in general, the first is legal and the second is moral.
I don't know the Uk's laws but it's probably like in France when some comments are prohibited by the law, the guys as Liam are responsible and therefore have to delete those comments, for instance.
That is a legal one, and we can't really argue about that as it can puts GOL in some danger.

But in this case, I don't think (at least until now) it's a legal one, it's just a moral one IMO.
Most people have limits to their morals, some might think "we can say that" or "we really can't say that" etc.
I understand Ehvis's post:

Quoting: EhvisThis is a very black and white representation of things. In fact, your poll is a purely black and white question on things that are ultimately grey. And so I won't vote.

Tell me if I'm wrong of course, I think you're the kind of guy who has a moral but with certain limits, like I said above.

I don't saying that I don't have morals at all but I tend to be on the side where anybody can say anything about anything, anywhere, even if I don't agree with some statements.
I'm trying to think about the problem as a whole.

Edit: I already saw this kind of issue on another forum, between the staff and some members, for a certain period it was like a "war", people were banned etc... I don't want to see this on GOL either.
So please people stay courteous.

Quoting: Liam DaweWe have to take a stand somewhere

If it's unlawful, fine, if it's against European laws, fine, but "taking a stand" is personal. That's speaking personally instead of being an impartial journalist. I understand it's your website, but by trying to fill the roles of journalist and comment curator, you're putting yourself in an ethically complex situation.

Having an opinion in of itself is fine, but on your own time. You're not unattached by money or contacts from game developers/publishers in the first place and nobody has zero built-in bias. I'd have probably not bothered with saying a thing if you'd said [RANT] at the top of the second article, though. You obviously wanted to let off steam about recent events without anybody contradicting you.

As for controversial comments, maybe use an old-school TV-like notice at the top of the comments section to soften potential (unwarranted) GoL liability?

Example: The opinions expressed by the following comments are those of the participants, and do not reflect those of GamingOnLinux.com or its staff.

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: namikoOur community is civil enough to handle themselves

It really isn't.

Not sure why you're enabling comments in the first place, then, by that logic. It isn't a black and white issue, elaborating on that was the whole point of what I typed earlier, but I outlined the two least controversial, *and* least work-intensive options.

If you continue like this, it's harder work for you and your staff, and it ends up making everybody upset no matter what side they're on. Nobody on the first article liked not being able to comment any longer, they were obviously invested in the debates they were trying to have (or pointless arguments if you'd prefer, but it's subjective).

Quoting: Liam DaweIt is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Be honest, though. Were the opinions that you thought were particularly noxious (and deleted, but still see partially in replies) only ones that were attacking others on a personal basis? Or were the comments unworthy of discussion because you personally disagreed with them?

Quoting: Liam DaweThanks for the calm post on it, I've taken some rather colourful messages about all this today.

I agree with some debatably colourful things, but wouldn't use the same words while trying to get somebody to listen without prejudice.

That being said, you're welcome, and thank you for doing the same. You're a lot easier to get along with than some other people online, even when I disagree with you.

Quoting: Liam DaweAs long as people remain respectful this forum topic can stay open to have a productive chat about it. Believe me, I want to have the best community possible.

Still can't have a community without interested participants. If it's really a PR game about reducing toxicity (whatever it means), then I'd sooner be rid of the comments ASAP.

Or maybe do an upvote/downvote system with signed-in users? If it's good enough for Reddit, Slashdot, KnowYourMeme, The Register, and many other websites and platforms, why not here? All of those website have user moderation implemented slightly differently, and you could even come up with your own spin on how to innovate with this idea, but the point is that they seem to be working for those communities. Yes, all of these communities get nasty comments, all of which tend to get buried quickly.

If most GoL articles get no more than dozens of likes and dozens of comments, it'll save you guys time and money to let users open-source our own moderation. Then you can focus on only removing posts that are spam and illegal. Thoughts?

So, we have a system that works pretty much as well as an Internet community can reasonably be expected to work, but we're given two choices on how to break it? Can't I just vote "No thank you, we're fine!"

In my opinion Liam's done a damn good job thus far. No reason to take our toys away just because some of us can't play nice.

QuoteThat's speaking personally instead of being an impartial journalist.

Since when have I claimed to be impartial or support that a gaming website has to absolutely remain impartial? Never. This a big difference between us and CNN/BBC/whatever.

QuoteHaving an opinion in of itself is fine, but on your own time.

Honestly, I find that pretty ridiculous. So you want comments to either always be open so everyone can have their opinion (and I'm not allowed?!) or have them entirely off. I shouldn't and won't be scared to voice my opinion on my own website and no one is going to stop me, sorry.

Frankly, I think it's utter madness to say I shouldn't have an opinion in an article, yet everyone else should in the comments. It makes absolutely no sense.

QuoteNobody on the first article liked not being able to comment any longer, they were obviously invested in the debates they were trying to have (or pointless arguments if you'd prefer, but it's subjective).

Speaking for yourself there, let's not assume you're acting on behalf of anyone else or pretend you are. I've been thanked a large number of times for closing the comments on the first article.

QuoteOr maybe do an upvote/downvote system with signed-in users? If it's good enough for Reddit, Slashdot, KnowYourMeme, The Register, and many other websites and platforms, why not here? All of those website have user moderation implemented slightly differently, and you could even come up with your own spin on how to innovate with this idea, but the point is that they seem to be working for those communities. Yes, all of these communities get nasty comments, all of which tend to get buried quickly.

Absolutely no plans for a down vote system. That was one of the worst things about Reddit. If you think that sort of system gets rid of nasty comments, I would honestly question your motives. I've been on the receiving end of abuse on Reddit where the upvote system was used to silence me and highlight people being complete massive arseholes. I see it to others all the time, no way I'm bringing that sort of system here.

We will also not be removing comments. It's extremely rare we lock comments, acting like it's a really big issue is either being disingenuous or you don't read our comments much and think this is somehow a common issue when it is not.

Comments on articles are auto-locked by the system when an article is a year old. Outside of that, in the space of an entire year I believe we've locked comments twice. Both Ion Fury.

QuoteBe honest, though. Were the opinions that you thought were particularly noxious (and deleted, but still see partially in replies) only ones that were attacking others on a personal basis? Or were the comments unworthy of discussion because you personally disagreed with them?

There's a huge amount I don't agree with posted on here all the time, same with our telegram, discord and so on. Different opinions are not the issue, let's not claim it is. The issue should be pretty clear already.

If GOL staff and associates didn't weigh in their human touch, I'd just build a news scraper. I mean, really, at that point you'd just need to look at a chart of release dates. I'm here to relate.

The number of gamergate types coming out of the woodwork on GOL is a little scary and a lot disheartening. If you target an already extremely marginalized group with hate speech, there should be repercussions. Claiming censorship when you get called out on it is an extremely weak argument at best.

Also, this is Liam's site and moderating how he wants is his prerogative and nobody is censoring anybody. There are unlimited places for you to voice your opinion, regardless of how it affects others. If you want a full-on anti-censorship experience, give *4chan a try. That place is a cesspool of bigots, trolls, and the like. No one will stop you from anonymously saying whatever awful thing pops into your head.

*

Spoiler, click me

No one should actually go to 4chan. It's a terrible place.