Asking us to never close comments is asking us to allow GOL to turn into a hell-hole though. We are moderated, always have been and always will. We have to take a stand somewhere and we can't please everyone, all of the time. Certainly not perfect at it, fully admit there's plenty of room to improve.

Our community is civil enough to handle themselves

It really isn't. The amount of times we've had to warn people, remove comments or edit comments because of personalized attacks I lost count on a long time ago. It's not about having faith, it's the fact that I've moderated the community for a very long time and I've seen how these things go. It was not an attempt to censor people, it was me wanting to get some thoughts out there and not have the discussion descend into what crap it usually does.

We let people mostly get their thoughts out on all this in the previous article before closing it. Could this have been handled better? Perhaps.

I get there's strong feelings on all sides on this. As always, I will be taking feedback on board on how we proceed in future. It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Thanks for the calm post on it, I've taken some rather colourful messages about all this today.

As long as people remain respectful this forum topic can stay open to have a productive chat about it. Believe me, I want to have the best community possible.

This is a very black and white representation of things. In fact, your poll is a purely black and white question on things that are ultimately grey. And so I won't vote.

Calling it censorship is taking a big leap. You're not prevented from discussing anything, just from discussing it in that location. So unless anything actually gets deleted for no other reason that opinion, nothing has been censored.

Suggesting that you should allow everything is a very easy thing to say. Everybody knows that certain topics invite people that, how shall I put it... fail to remain diplomatic. That means there will need for moderation. An unfortunately reality. Should Liam just be sitting there for two days just moderating the comments on a thread that ultimately has nothing to do with Linux gaming? Does not really sound like the most useful thing to do.

What you want is a fantasy. There is no black and white in this world. Only a huge sea of grey. Perfect solutions aren't available and you can only try to get as close as possible. And sometimes this means having to get rid of something that is not part of the main focus of this site. And sure, you could argue that he invited it by taking a stand on the topic. But that doesn't really change much in practice. And in parallel with Linux, if you don't agree, you can always try it yourself and see if it works out for you.

I get there's strong feelings on all sides on this. As always, I will be taking feedback on board on how we proceed in future. It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Maybe the solution is to not cover e-drama. I'd wager people on this site have either already heard all about it from their favourite general gaming news outlet, or are deliberately not reading these anymore because they are full of opinion pieces, politics, controversies and whatnot.

I get there's strong feelings on all sides on this. As always, I will be taking feedback on board on how we proceed in future. It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Maybe the solution is to not cover e-drama. I'd wager people on this site have either already heard all about it from their favourite general gaming news outlet, or are deliberately not reading these anymore because they are full of opinion pieces, politics, controversies and whatnot.

Really, it seems people are more annoyed about the comments being closed than us actually writing about it.

There's a lot of angry people on Reddit though, some taking it waaaaay overboard considering my actual thoughts on the matter consisted of a single line at the end...

We can say there are two issues with this, and in general, the first is legal and the second is moral.
I don't know the Uk's laws but it's probably like in France when some comments are prohibited by the law, the guys as Liam are responsible and therefore have to delete those comments, for instance.
That is a legal one, and we can't really argue about that as it can puts GOL in some danger.

But in this case, I don't think (at least until now) it's a legal one, it's just a moral one IMO.
Most people have limits to their morals, some might think "we can say that" or "we really can't say that" etc.
I understand Ehvis's post:

This is a very black and white representation of things. In fact, your poll is a purely black and white question on things that are ultimately grey. And so I won't vote.

Tell me if I'm wrong of course, I think you're the kind of guy who has a moral but with certain limits, like I said above.

I don't saying that I don't have morals at all but I tend to be on the side where anybody can say anything about anything, anywhere, even if I don't agree with some statements.
I'm trying to think about the problem as a whole.

Edit: I already saw this kind of issue on another forum, between the staff and some members, for a certain period it was like a "war", people were banned etc... I don't want to see this on GOL either.
So please people stay courteous.

We have to take a stand somewhere

If it's unlawful, fine, if it's against European laws, fine, but "taking a stand" is personal. That's speaking personally instead of being an impartial journalist. I understand it's your website, but by trying to fill the roles of journalist and comment curator, you're putting yourself in an ethically complex situation.

Having an opinion in of itself is fine, but on your own time. You're not unattached by money or contacts from game developers/publishers in the first place and nobody has zero built-in bias. I'd have probably not bothered with saying a thing if you'd said [RANT] at the top of the second article, though. You obviously wanted to let off steam about recent events without anybody contradicting you.

As for controversial comments, maybe use an old-school TV-like notice at the top of the comments section to soften potential (unwarranted) GoL liability?

Example: The opinions expressed by the following comments are those of the participants, and do not reflect those of GamingOnLinux.com or its staff.

Our community is civil enough to handle themselves

It really isn't.

Not sure why you're enabling comments in the first place, then, by that logic. It isn't a black and white issue, elaborating on that was the whole point of what I typed earlier, but I outlined the two least controversial, *and* least work-intensive options.

If you continue like this, it's harder work for you and your staff, and it ends up making everybody upset no matter what side they're on. Nobody on the first article liked not being able to comment any longer, they were obviously invested in the debates they were trying to have (or pointless arguments if you'd prefer, but it's subjective).

It is not my aim to prevent people giving their opinion on things.

Be honest, though. Were the opinions that you thought were particularly noxious (and deleted, but still see partially in replies) only ones that were attacking others on a personal basis? Or were the comments unworthy of discussion because you personally disagreed with them?

Thanks for the calm post on it, I've taken some rather colourful messages about all this today.

I agree with some debatably colourful things, but wouldn't use the same words while trying to get somebody to listen without prejudice.

That being said, you're welcome, and thank you for doing the same. You're a lot easier to get along with than some other people online, even when I disagree with you.

As long as people remain respectful this forum topic can stay open to have a productive chat about it. Believe me, I want to have the best community possible.

Still can't have a community without interested participants. If it's really a PR game about reducing toxicity (whatever it means), then I'd sooner be rid of the comments ASAP.

Or maybe do an upvote/downvote system with signed-in users? If it's good enough for Reddit, Slashdot, KnowYourMeme, The Register, and many other websites and platforms, why not here? All of those website have user moderation implemented slightly differently, and you could even come up with your own spin on how to innovate with this idea, but the point is that they seem to be working for those communities. Yes, all of these communities get nasty comments, all of which tend to get buried quickly.

If most GoL articles get no more than dozens of likes and dozens of comments, it'll save you guys time and money to let users open-source our own moderation. Then you can focus on only removing posts that are spam and illegal. Thoughts?

So, we have a system that works pretty much as well as an Internet community can reasonably be expected to work, but we're given two choices on how to break it? Can't I just vote "No thank you, we're fine!"

In my opinion Liam's done a damn good job thus far. No reason to take our toys away just because some of us can't play nice.

That's speaking personally instead of being an impartial journalist.

Since when have I claimed to be impartial or support that a gaming website has to absolutely remain impartial? Never. This a big difference between us and CNN/BBC/whatever.

Having an opinion in of itself is fine, but on your own time.

Honestly, I find that pretty ridiculous. So you want comments to either always be open so everyone can have their opinion (and I'm not allowed?!) or have them entirely off. I shouldn't and won't be scared to voice my opinion on my own website and no one is going to stop me, sorry.

Frankly, I think it's utter madness to say I shouldn't have an opinion in an article, yet everyone else should in the comments. It makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody on the first article liked not being able to comment any longer, they were obviously invested in the debates they were trying to have (or pointless arguments if you'd prefer, but it's subjective).

Speaking for yourself there, let's not assume you're acting on behalf of anyone else or pretend you are. I've been thanked a large number of times for closing the comments on the first article.

Or maybe do an upvote/downvote system with signed-in users? If it's good enough for Reddit, Slashdot, KnowYourMeme, The Register, and many other websites and platforms, why not here? All of those website have user moderation implemented slightly differently, and you could even come up with your own spin on how to innovate with this idea, but the point is that they seem to be working for those communities. Yes, all of these communities get nasty comments, all of which tend to get buried quickly.

Absolutely no plans for a down vote system. That was one of the worst things about Reddit. If you think that sort of system gets rid of nasty comments, I would honestly question your motives. I've been on the receiving end of abuse on Reddit where the upvote system was used to silence me and highlight people being complete massive arseholes. I see it to others all the time, no way I'm bringing that sort of system here.

We will also not be removing comments. It's extremely rare we lock comments, acting like it's a really big issue is either being disingenuous or you don't read our comments much and think this is somehow a common issue when it is not.

Comments on articles are auto-locked by the system when an article is a year old. Outside of that, in the space of an entire year I believe we've locked comments twice. Both Ion Fury.

Be honest, though. Were the opinions that you thought were particularly noxious (and deleted, but still see partially in replies) only ones that were attacking others on a personal basis? Or were the comments unworthy of discussion because you personally disagreed with them?

There's a huge amount I don't agree with posted on here all the time, same with our telegram, discord and so on. Different opinions are not the issue, let's not claim it is. The issue should be pretty clear already.

If GOL staff and associates didn't weigh in their human touch, I'd just build a news scraper. I mean, really, at that point you'd just need to look at a chart of release dates. I'm here to relate.

The number of gamergate types coming out of the woodwork on GOL is a little scary and a lot disheartening. If you target an already extremely marginalized group with hate speech, there should be repercussions. Claiming censorship when you get called out on it is an extremely weak argument at best.

Also, this is Liam's site and moderating how he wants is his prerogative and nobody is censoring anybody. There are unlimited places for you to voice your opinion, regardless of how it affects others. If you want a full-on anti-censorship experience, give *4chan a try. That place is a cesspool of bigots, trolls, and the like. No one will stop you from anonymously saying whatever awful thing pops into your head.

*

Spoiler, click me

No one should actually go to 4chan. It's a terrible place.

Honestly, I find that pretty ridiculous. So you want comments to either always be open so everyone can have their opinion (and I'm not allowed?!) or have them entirely off. I shouldn't and won't be scared to voice my opinion on my own website and no one is going to stop me, sorry.

Ask yourself what you are doing, though. Have you added anything worthwhile to the discussion that hasn't already been said? Do you have any specific insights/perspectives that others might not have seen?

Your unique perspective is that of a Linux user, that's why we're here, that's why you have an audience. But it doesn't apply to this story, so what we are left with is pure opinion. Something you'd maybe post on a forum if you were angry at the developers. Except without comments, it comes off as you telling your readers what to think of the controversy, with no talking back.

Maybe either try and post better, more thoughtful op-eds, hoping that the comments improve as well, or don't play the Internet slap fight game. I think that might be the only winning move, really.

Your unique perspective is that of a Linux user, that's why we're here, that's why you have an audience. But it doesn't apply to this story, so what we are left with is pure opinion. Something you'd maybe post on a forum if you were angry at the developers. Except without comments, it comes off as you telling your readers what to think of the controversy, with no talking back.

There's a big difference between him telling us what he thinks, and him telling us what to think.

Also, I don't see why it matters if someone else somewhere has already written about the same thing, or had the same opinion. That's no reason to keep silent, especially if it's an issue he feels is important.

I don’t have much to say on this debate because I feel like I’ve seen it played out numerous times already and ultimately it will be up to Liam, but I’m curious about one thing:

I've been thanked a large number of times for closing the comments on the first article.

I’m trying to understand why it would benefit anyone other than yourself (because it saves you from moderating a flame war). Anyone who doesn’t like the discussion can just not read it and unsubscribe from the article’s comments. Locking it stops the argument but doesn’t restore everyone else’s ability to have a pleasant discussion there, so the thread is still a wasteland, and I’m confused. Has anyone mentioned why they were thankful for it?


Anyway, generally I find that Liam does an alright job of drawing the line between arguments and personal attacks and is not overly quick to quell heated arguments. Preemptive locking does feel heavy-handed to me, but I can’t really blame him for sparing himself the trouble. Maybe a warning/cooldown system would help? Instead of blocking comments because you know some users will take them too far, maybe removing those users’ commenting privileges temporarily when they cross the line would serve to remind them to keep it cool, and if repeat offenders don’t take the hint you could mute them permanently without impacting everyone else. We already have the ability to block users individually, so this would be your site-wide version of the same approach for the benefit of unregistered users, I reckon.

You could have a "User was muted for this post" banner associated with it to help show where you draw the line and warn others to cool their engines. As a sidenote, I wouldn’t remove people’s ability to use the forum based on those warnings, though. I think it’s good to have a backup place you can express/explain yourself and engage in other, non-sensitive topics, and if people abuse that too it might be time to consider banning them altogether.

The only thing I have to say on this is people really, really need to learn the difference between hate-speech and free-speech.

Free-speech is not an absolute in almost every country except America, and it comes with consequences. American values translate poorly to the rest of the world.

---
Oh and, this is a site that Liam owns, and has done a freaking amazing job of building up. And also maintains a generally very good community on. He is well within his "rights" or however you want to phrase it, to administer his property in the way he chooses - and his judgement is fantastic in every case (from sound ethics and morals, but also a heavy dose of experience).

---
Bloody hell. Just noticed the poll. Okay sure, have a poll with only two extremes. Good job mate.

American values translate poorly to the rest of the world.

I'd be surprised if the totality of any nominally ideological multitude's professed values translated well to all outside that multitude, whether internationally or intranationally. Granted, control and influence are unequally spread, often disproportionately so.

The number of gamergate types coming out of the woodwork on GOL is a little scary and a lot disheartening. If you target an already extremely marginalized group with hate speech, there should be repercussions. Claiming censorship when you get called out on it is an extremely weak argument at best.

Also, this is Liam's site and moderating how he wants is his prerogative and nobody is censoring anybody. There are unlimited places for you to voice your opinion, regardless of how it affects others. If you want a full-on anti-censorship experience, give *4chan a try. That place is a cesspool of bigots, trolls, and the like. No one will stop you from anonymously saying whatever awful thing pops into your head.

*

Spoiler, click me

No one should actually go to 4chan. It's a terrible place.

This, this and this. It's probably off topic, but it sure seems crying muh freeze peach and censorships fools a lot of people (and makes a lot of bucks for some). I think that people that look at issues of free speech in video games or on related forums might not just be looking at the right issues, or just deliberately trying to cause a flamewar.

American values translate poorly to the rest of the world.

I'd be surprised if the totality of any nominally ideological multitude's professed values translated well to all outside that multitude, whether internationally or intranationally. Granted, control and influence are unequally spread, often disproportionately so.

Pardon?

As long as people remain respectful this forum topic can stay open to have a productive chat about it.

Although I find incivility incredibly tiresome and unrewarding, the productiveness of a conversation is ultimately more important to me than the respectfulness it contains, although it can be a challenge to conduct a productive conversation when respectfulness is lacking (although not impossible, as has sometimes been demonstrated on the Linux kernel mailing list).

That's not to say that all conversations need to contain informative, insightful, useful, or otherwise productive commentary. There is nothing wrong with a little inanity from time to time. But certain topics have a way of inviting hostility, and whatever thoughtful exchanges there are to be made can easily be lost amid a cacophony of reflexive outbursts.

When Liam closed the comments to the article "Some more thoughts on Ion Fury, the FPS from Voidpoint and 3D Realms", I was in agreement with the move, as I felt, given the commentary up until that point, nothing productive was going to be added. It's a judgment call; I happen to agree with it and think it was for the best. I honestly would have preferred no further articles on Ion Fury dev commentary barring something truly redefining beyond what is already known, but that's Liam's call to make.

I think articles like those two shouldn't even appear on GoL. But that's just me. Thing is, they're not about Linux or Linux gaming except they happened to happen to a game that supports Linux. But they're not about Linux gaming. It's like posting an article about some developer that made a recently released Linux game and then it's been revealed he's a rapist/serial killer/crook/whatever. It's related to Linux gaming but it's not about gaming. Following this logic wouldn't make any good to the site in my opinion. If I want to read and/or participate in a controversy there's plenty of other sites writing about that.

Good controversies are those that affect the Linux gaming.

• A Linux-supporting game decided to move to EGS that doesn't support Linux? That's interesting, what are other options to play it outside Steam then?


• A developer decided to drop Linux support? Whoa, of course I want to know more! What's gonna happen to the existing customers? What to do next? Is it the final decision?


• This game is now playable on Linux! Whether via Steam Play or natively, that's a good news. Tell me more!


• This game has been updated and now experiences difficulties, here's how to make it work again and when the patch is going to release.


• In this game you can find a soap bottle with a made up word "Ogay" on it, whoa! Thanks, but no, thanks.

Some time ago I also said in the comments for a Steam Play article that Wine gaming is fine by me unless the game doesn't work out of the box. If you press "Play" and the game launches and works just fine I don't care what's under the hood. It's gaming on Linux. This does apply to this situation as well. Those articles are not about gaming, they're about what the developers said in their chat, whether "Ogay" is a slur or not, what group of people is more valuable to the devs (because it's impossible to please everyone) and so on. The only thing about the game there is a tiny sprite and I don't think it deserves a whole article. Because it's not about the sprite.

I always appreciated that GoL is pretty much politically/socially neutral so it's good to read about games with no political strings attached. It's good when the games are in focus, not gender identities, sexual orientations, political leanings, race issues and so on. If anything of the above issues (and many other like that) appears it ultimately only brings discord to the community and radicalizes it, makes people pick sides because they are all different and have different beliefs and backgrounds. And saying some beliefs are right and others are wrong is like saying that some people are invalid/trash and others are valid/good. Which is not true most of the time.

Big controversies are usually already all over the social media and people not living under the rock would find them anyway. Why even bring them here? Why take a stance? It looks like scoring political points because the admin and article authors have quite a bit of influence over the readers. They have a megaphone and some power to push their ideas. Until now I believed that megaphone is used so that the Linux gaming news can be heard even far away. Now I see that it's used to silence those who don't agree to a political agenda. Not a good outcome if you ask me.

Due to my disappointment I decided to lower my monthly GoL pledge on Patreon (I don't urge anyone else to do the same, of course). I'm not going away like some people did, one failure is not worth it. And I hope to change this decision in the future if things won't get worse. I hope it won't come to the situation where someone with power here publicly says on his Twitter "I hate gamers" because that's exactly what the Ion Fury forum moderator said. You're better than that.

@rkfg, I respect your decision here.

However, there are times and likely will be in future when we write about things not directly related to Linux and Gaming. I hope you stick around of course :)

Still, it's new territory for us and there will always be some people who do not agree hence my point about not being able to please everyone. I mean jeez, the kinda of salt some people threw at me when I covered 1 or 2 Steam Play games in the space of a month was quite painful. All I want to do is spread some news, what people do with it is their choice.

In this case, perhaps some sort of cool-down timer on the comments may have been quite helpful, it's something that has recently been suggested for heated topics and I must admit I quite like the idea. Gives people time to read, have a think and then eventually comment. Believe me, I do not like locking comments. As mentioned, it's been all of twice.

Additionally, it was pointed out that the article made it to the linux_gaming Reddit. Guess what happened there? The moderators hid it from view, without a direct link you wouldn't know it was posted.