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Quoting: Segata Sanshiro

QuoteI don't know how your company actually works, but why would they have you working on it in your free time in the first place? They can expect some considerable revenue from a linux port, so they should really assign (and pay) a developer to do this full-time...

If you read Gran's post, he was doing it in his free time because he enjoyed it. He is also being paid to do it during office hours, that's why its delayed but not canceled. That's probably the worst thing about this - not only were people trolling a dev, but a dev who was doing a nice thing and who clearly enjoys his work.

Let's not exaggerate the "free time" and "working for fun" part too much, though. It's not a favor...it's a business decision.
After all, the company will make money from linux sales, so they should be able to deal with impatient customers. If you don't enjoy that part of your job and you can't just ignore it, just don't work in your free time. Who cares how, when or why a developer finished his work? I pay money, I get the product ... if the developer had fun making it, that's fine. If he didn't and just did "his job" ... that's also fine. Doesn't make a difference for me, to be honest.

If I personally really enjoy doing something, I enjoy it for myself and I couldn't care less what other people do, think or say about it.

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I hope they meet this stretch goal. I've backed it, you should too! :D

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QuoteI don't know how your company actually works, but why would they have you working on it in your free time in the first place? They can expect some considerable revenue from a linux port, so they should really assign (and pay) a developer to do this full-time...

If you read Gran's post, he was doing it in his free time because he enjoyed it. He is also being paid to do it during office hours, that's why its delayed but not canceled. That's probably the worst thing about this - not only were people trolling a dev, but a dev who was doing a nice thing and who clearly enjoys his work.

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Quoting: novemberist

Quoting: Gran PCIt is mostly removed from the forums (edited out by the author or moderators or post removed altogether). You probably won't find my emails on the forums either -- and I am not offended about people writing "+1 for linux" (just legitimately didn't understand what the point was -- having announced that the port was coming) - sorry for the misunderstanding there.

As the original post stated, I am also still working on the port, just not in my personal time.

One last note -- I am actually pretty blown away by the new messages I have been receiving/seeing on forums, articles like these, etc. It actually does help put things in scale. So thank you for that.

So what are people actually complaining about mostly? Usually people (even on Steam) are very euphoric about any Linux port that is officially announced. I don't get why they would be so outrageous. And unless it turns out to be a legitimately objectionable port (I'm looking at you TW2) I've never seen them complain in such a way as described here.

"+1 for linux" could also just mean: Here is another person that appreciates your efforts to do a linux port. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know how your company actually works, but why would they have you working on it in your free time in the first place? They can expect some considerable revenue from a linux port, so they should really assign (and pay) a developer to do this full-time...

One of the most common complaints I have seen are "omg you ported to osx first and the linux port isnt out yet wtf theyre almost the same".

They don't have me working in my free time. I work in my free time because I like making games. I am still working on the port in 'company' time.

[edit: 'company' time isn't very strictly defined, but bottom line is that I am obviously still working on it. hopefully I will have news to share soon.]

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Quoting: DrMcCoy

Quoting: Gran PC"+1 for linux" (just legitimately didn't understand what the point was -- having announced that the port was coming)

I can of course only speak for myself, but for me it's kinda of an enthusiastic "me too". To show that there are people who care, who look forward to it.

Like I said on the Steam forums, I bought the game solely because of the announced Linux port. I haven't even downloaded it yet in Steam, since I'm Linux-exclusive for over 10 years now.

For what it's worth, if you need help debugging a Linux build, I can offer my help and gdb-/valgrind-experience. My OpenGL knowledge is limited and I don't know anything about Valve's Source engine (which is what you're using, no?), but I do know C and C++ and I think I know a bit about best practices on GNU/Linux.

Yup, we're using Source. It has a lot of wrappers around Windows things to work on Linux -- feels kinda hacked together, but I suppose it works.

I may need your help when I reach beta -- when I release, if you don't have a copy, just email me :)

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Quoting: Gran PCIt is mostly removed from the forums (edited out by the author or moderators or post removed altogether). You probably won't find my emails on the forums either -- and I am not offended about people writing "+1 for linux" (just legitimately didn't understand what the point was -- having announced that the port was coming) - sorry for the misunderstanding there.

As the original post stated, I am also still working on the port, just not in my personal time.

One last note -- I am actually pretty blown away by the new messages I have been receiving/seeing on forums, articles like these, etc. It actually does help put things in scale. So thank you for that.

So what are people actually complaining about mostly? Usually people (even on Steam) are very euphoric about any Linux port that is officially announced. I don't get why they would be so outrageous. And unless it turns out to be a legitimately objectionable port (I'm looking at you TW2) I've never seen them complain in such a way as described here.

"+1 for linux" could also just mean: Here is another person that appreciates your efforts to do a linux port. Nothing wrong with that.

I don't know how your company actually works, but why would they have you working on it in your free time in the first place? They can expect some considerable revenue from a linux port, so they should really assign (and pay) a developer to do this full-time...

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Quoting: Gran PC"+1 for linux" (just legitimately didn't understand what the point was -- having announced that the port was coming)

I can of course only speak for myself, but for me it's kinda of an enthusiastic "me too". To show that there are people who care, who look forward to it.

Like I said on the Steam forums, I bought the game solely because of the announced Linux port. I haven't even downloaded it yet in Steam, since I'm Linux-exclusive for over 10 years now.

For what it's worth, if you need help debugging a Linux build, I can offer my help and gdb-/valgrind-experience. My OpenGL knowledge is limited and I don't know anything about Valve's Source engine (which is what you're using, no?), but I do know C and C++ and I think I know a bit about best practices on GNU/Linux.

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Quoting: novemberistSo, I've been reading through the linked Steam discussion and quite honestly, I can't see any form of harassment or trolling there. Nothing that would justify all the fuss at least. Apparently GranPC feels offended by people writing "+1 for linux" (merely expressing their support for a linux version) ... so maybe the problem is one of mutual misunderstanding than of what he calls "harassment" in the end.

It is mostly removed from the forums (edited out by the author or moderators or post removed altogether). You probably won't find my emails on the forums either -- and I am not offended about people writing "+1 for linux" (just legitimately didn't understand what the point was -- having announced that the port was coming) - sorry for the misunderstanding there.

As the original post stated, I am also still working on the port, just not in my personal time.

One last note -- I am actually pretty blown away by the new messages I have been receiving/seeing on forums, articles like these, etc. It actually does help put things in scale. So thank you for that.

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So, I've been reading through the linked Steam discussion and quite honestly, I can't see any form of harassment or trolling there. Nothing that would justify all the fuss at least. Apparently GranPC feels offended by people writing "+1 for linux" (merely expressing their support for a linux version) ... so maybe the problem is one of mutual misunderstanding than of what he calls "harassment" in the end.

As a developer stating publically on the Steam forum that you are ready to do the Linux port on your own, you should be thick-skinned enough to deal with people's impatience and answer to (some) of their legitimate questions.

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The internet is still the internet. Just because people troll and deride the dev about not caring about Linux does not mean they were actually Linux users. It's too bad that the dev is letting trolls stop him from expanding his market. I hope he shrugs it off and learns to ignore the negativity online.

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It's quite hard to be selective on ignoring people, especially when they email you. Every time someone flames your inbox, it's a depressing reminder that trolls are on your back.

That kind of harassment is pretty despicable. I'm gutted that GranPC is taking this action, as I am mega-excited about his game and I'm Linux only, but honestly, it's only way to properly respond that will get any respect (from trolls). And he remains professionally committed to the port, so there shouldn't be any complaints.

There will be complaints of course, because, as Dr McCoy notes, people are dicks. Not all people. Just... enough people.

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Quoting: Gran PC

Quoting: jdubSome devs need to realize steam forums are the worst...every steam community is balls. Taking what trolls say (and there will ALWAYS be trolls) personally is really not professional...announcing it on the forums is just setting yourself up for this.

Alright then, I guess I'll have to start ignoring my email, the forums and all other channels through which the community can give me feedback.

(I don't disagree with you that the Steam forums are pretty bad in general though)

Nobody said to ignore your emails. Just ignore the ones that are from angry idiots.

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Quoting: FutureSuture

Quoting: Gran PCwhen you are trying to cater to an userbase that seems to mostly hate you

That really isn't a fair assessment. That's generalization. Also, it is unwise to single out Linux users here when I am quite sure that not all fans of this game who are Windows or Mac OS users are goodie goodie two shoes either. Not pleased with the degenerates who brought this about, but the reaction isn't welcome either.

To be very fair to Gran, he is still working on the port (like he said in the post). What he is no longer doing is using his FREE TIME to do so - something which he has no obligation to do.

The short story is that people harassed to him, which took away enjoyment from porting it, so he now only does what is required of him. That's exactly what I would do in his situation.

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Deer Gran PC,

The game is out for windows so a lot of the flaming comes due to the lack of availability on the smaller platforms.

But remember that there are a lot of people who patiently waited and never tried to troll. I'm sorry to hear that these people tried to harass you.

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Quoting: jdubSome devs need to realize steam forums are the worst

So are YouTube comments. And 4chan. And reddit. And Twitter. And...

No, it's deeper than that. The sad reality is this: people are dicks. Everywhere.

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Quoting: Gran PC

Quoting: jdubSome devs need to realize steam forums are the worst...every steam community is balls. Taking what trolls say (and there will ALWAYS be trolls) personally is really not professional...announcing it on the forums is just setting yourself up for this.

Alright then, I guess I'll have to start ignoring my email, the forums and all other channels through which the community can give me feedback.

(I don't disagree with you that the Steam forums are pretty bad in general though)

It's the Internet, people tend to be far more abusive due to disassociation and lack os serious repercussions. As developer if you want to keep an open communication line with players i think you need to learn to filter out the crap people will throw at you. You really shouldn't let comments made by a minority over the Internet affect you on a personal level as that will negatively impact your work in general.

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I just hope he finish porting the game soon. I want to play it ;)

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Not exactly a solution. Thick skins don't grow on trees either.
It's a pity that some people aren't even able to hold any kind of standard on the Steam forums either; as said, this is far from being an exception. Bumblebee got a couple fugly trolls during the release of GhostControl Inc. too, due to their lack of experience (and dependencies). It feels strange fighting off what should be allies.
And the worst thing is, I'm afraid you're preaching to the choir.
Anyway, port or not, all the best, Gran PC. At least you're (have been?) trying. Hopefully TSP will come out someday, and if not, well... maybe the next game. :)

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Quoting: Gran PCwhen you are trying to cater to an userbase that seems to mostly hate you

That really isn't a fair assessment. That's generalization. Also, it is unwise to single out Linux users here when I am quite sure that not all fans of this game who are Windows or Mac OS users are goodie goodie two shoes either. Not pleased with the degenerates who brought this about, but the reaction isn't welcome either.

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Wut? Now I got upset :/
I set my eyes on this game before it was even released and got really happy when I got a Linux confirmation.... I am really looking forward to finally play it.
It really sucks that some people have to screw good things -.-
I am always happy when some dev decide to support Linux without any obligation to.... and then we get some cases like 7DTD where the game is promised in two months to the backers and the devs run a full year without giving a single word about Linux....
But well, that was just one case -.-

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Quoting: jdubSome devs need to realize steam forums are the worst...every steam community is balls. Taking what trolls say (and there will ALWAYS be trolls) personally is really not professional...announcing it on the forums is just setting yourself up for this.

Alright then, I guess I'll have to start ignoring my email, the forums and all other channels through which the community can give me feedback.

(I don't disagree with you that the Steam forums are pretty bad in general though)

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Some devs need to realize steam forums are the worst...every steam community is balls. Taking what trolls say (and there will ALWAYS be trolls) personally is really not professional...announcing it on the forums is just setting yourself up for this.

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I had over a day just last week where internet was down at my house; being forced offline really is a thing that happens to people that aren't big powerful cyborgs like Beamboom ;)

It definitely would be annoying to have all my games inaccessible during internet outages, but much worse to have a game I still want to play get completely disabled because the authorization server goes away. Some gamers are betting on Valve to not get into financial trouble and get bought out by EA, with their habit of making game servers go away instead of letting the gaming community take them over http://www.ea.com/1/service-updates ... but since predictions of the future are rather difficult, not everybody would not want to make that kind of bet and would much rather keep control over games they buy. Actually some gamers get sick of a game after playing it for less than a year and can't imagine wanting to ever play it again, so they probably would just as soon rent games, which is what some of these DRM schemes amount to (rental with an unknown, but fairly long, time limit).

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There a places where internet are restricted (a various kinds of restricts, include p2p block, speed limitation, firewall limitation and so on), very expensive or just not present at all.
For example, if you live in Canada, Russia, China, Australia or any other big country - there are a lot of places, where is no Internet except the satellite ones (1 MB = 50 USD, yeah).
Then, if Steam suddenly goes permament offline (I don't wish it), you will lose not only achievements, but games indeed. As for I am.
What's why I prefer GOG for old games which I plaed back to school times, or HB for new indies. Steam provide a lot of useful value-added services, but there are also Steam's cons...
As for example: there are a lot of complains about Steam's refund policy... oh, one moment please, there are no refund policy on Steam at all as well there no guarantee of satisfaction or even running on your shiny new PC ;D You could buy rubbish game with misads and there are no possible way to refund... If you try to do it via chargeback - you could be banned from Steam for ages.

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Quoting: Areso

Quoting: Maquis196I wonder if we buy it now on special we'll certainly count as a "windows install" even though bought on Linux client, but long term surely they'd have metrics to see who bought it via Linux client and playing it on Linux.

I agree its best to buy a game when theres a Linux version out so we know they've actually done the work and not conned us, but damn... there is afterall a sale on :D.

Otoh, good to support these guys with maximum revenue, but I don't know about you lot but I'm struggling to keep up with the number of Linux games on our platform now, up to about 185 now and they keep coming which is both :) and :( (for wallet + time reasons).

I bought it as Gift on Linux machine with 80% off flash sale.
I'll redeem it when linux version will be available.

You clever bas......

Love it :).

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Quoting: Maquis196I wonder if we buy it now on special we'll certainly count as a "windows install" even though bought on Linux client, but long term surely they'd have metrics to see who bought it via Linux client and playing it on Linux.

I agree its best to buy a game when theres a Linux version out so we know they've actually done the work and not conned us, but damn... there is afterall a sale on :D.

Otoh, good to support these guys with maximum revenue, but I don't know about you lot but I'm struggling to keep up with the number of Linux games on our platform now, up to about 185 now and they keep coming which is both :) and :( (for wallet + time reasons).

I bought it as Gift on Linux machine with 80% off flash sale.
I'll redeem it when linux version will be available.

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Well, looky here, my internet just stopped working for about half an hour before it finally came back. But really, how often does this happen?

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YES! I need Spelunky next and then I am happy for some time :)

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Game maker has certainly changed a lot since when I used it back on version 6.

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Quoting: BeamboomThanks for the reply, guys.

Ok, first thing first: The requirement of having the game CD in the CD tray is annoying, as I too stated. That's why I prefer the online requirements instead.

The rest of your arguments reside around the problem with not being online/connected.

It should here be mentioned that I am a close to 100% Steam gamer. I got some freebie games that are hosted on Uplay (like Assassins Creed that I got with a graphics card) but I don't think I've paid for anything outside Steam.

So in effect I guess what I'm really arguing for here, is that Steam really is not such a bad service. And I've read many, many users claiming "Steam == DRM, never on my computer!" I just go, "why???".

Sure, it probably is at least a theoretical hassle to not be able to play on your laptop while being offline. But in real life, how often do that happen?
I just think people are far, far too harsh on this whole issue. Like I said, I've been a gamer for decades now and have not really in practise been annoyed by anything but the old "CD in tray" requirement.

There are many layers of drm and Steam is probably the least intrusive of the lot (a lot of stuff inside steam will run without steam running for instance), but not all DRM are equal and Ubisoft have a very draconian one in many peoples eyes. Sure it works for some and they won't complain because they get to play their game. As soon as you can't play your legally purchased game because of DRM, the system is broken.

Uplay does this. Origin does this. Not seen it happen in steam but thats probably due to the fact I dont play games that have some bullshit "online" requirement, especially when its forced on us.

Its a matter of choice at the end of the day, at least we have that.

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