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Quoting: edoI have the same doubt about why a really cool game as cue club 2 hasn't been greenlighted yet. It's just because its not popular.

Cue Club 2 looks a lot like Arcade Pool, I like it! But where's the Linux version? :P

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Quoting: edoHave you visited http://whosgamingnow.com/? There is the reason why there are many bad games than have been already greenlighted, because people vote just to get a free key, and not because the game is good.

Well, with methods like that it's no wonder that Valve looks to drop the whole Greenlight process. Instead of promoting good games and barring the crappy ones from entry, it is now doing the exact opposite. I will not shed a single tear for the "greenlight bundles" as I've bought too many of them and hardly enjoyed any game they contained. Well made games would easily get good sales and positive reviews - yet they can't get onto steam because greenlight top100 is flooded with mediocre titles that are buying the votes one way or another...

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Quoting: Anonymous

Quoting: liamdaweAnd yes, we need our money counted for Linux and not Windows. This is a good stepping stone to show developers and publishers there is money in Linux.

To what end?

What does it matter?

Think about it for a sec.

If I'm a developer, and I make a Windows game, let's call it Cool Shooter, and you buy it and play it in Wine. I got your money. I don't give a shit what platform you run it on, I care that I got your money. OK, so you bought it through GoG as a "Linux" game. I can now see that some Linux gamers gave me their money even though I didn't bother with Linux.

The time comes to make the sequel. Cool Shooter 2, let's say. I code it with DirectX for Windows because Linux users bought it last time with zero effort on my part.

And what happens? They buy it again.

The only incentive for a developer to support Linux is MONEY. id had the warm fuzzies for a while, but even they abandoned us. So, keep buying Windows games and running them with Wine. It really doesn't matter to devs if you use Wine, so long as they don't have to make any efforts and you keep opening your wallets.

"Oh, but the devs will probably do native after seeing Linux dollars roll in."

No, they won't. There is NO REASON TO. You buy the Windows versions anyhow. They get the money either way.

A huge chunk of the games on gog are 10, 15, even 20 years old. The source may very well be gone for the original developer.

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Paradox has got to be the most supportive publisher of Linux right after Valve.

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You cannot download a game without relying on a third-party product. I can download any GOG game without using their downloader. It's just a store. Steam, however, is a platform. One you _must_ use if you wish to download a game. And ocassionally, if you wish to play it. And very often, if you want full functionality - see all the DRM-free games that don't have feature X because feature X depends on you running Steam. Want Starbound beta? MUST use Steam. Want mods? MUST use Steam. With its slow, massive client, its community of troglodytes, and every other feature I do not want or need. I still have to deal with it, because otherwise my purchase will remain beyond the wall.

If Steam decides - for any reason (literally - read their TOS) - they want to remove a game? No more game. They don't like you? Removing your account / disabling access to your games is a piece of cake.

My expectation of a online store is that registering is enough - I don't then have to backup games in separate folders just to escape their goddamn client, I can download them using the same tool I use to download everything else.

Remember, it's Digital Restrictions Management. Using Steam, you're restricted in many, many ways. It's the worst sort of vendor lock-in. That, to me, is DRM. Silly protection schemes can be broken. Ask any Windows user. But there's no way around Steam. You just published the news that Bionic Dues is finally DRM-free - but since I got in a bundle previously, I don't have access to a DRM-free version (I misread...nevermind). I refuse to use their client. Therefore, I have no way to get a game I _payed_ money for. And I didn't buy it from Steam, either. But I'm still locked-in. It's a spider spreading its web all over the place (the, uhm, web). Same thing for Starbound. That's the last game I'll ever buy before it's finished. Because they went "well, fuck everyone not using Steam, no beta for them", I'm still waiting to play a game I pre-ordered when it was still screenshots, goodwill and smiles. By using Steam, you're sending the message it's okay to use Steam - and that it's okay to ignore customers who don't - because everyone's uses Steam, right? And thinks Gabe shits rainbows.

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I bought a whole lot of indie games from bundles, sales, and sometimes just from the store, for the normal price. And honestly I think that quite many of them were not worth the listing price of 9,99, not to mention 14,99 or 19,99. Most of the titles I played should be priced in 1-2 dollar range, so it's rather obvious that they are put in the store for 5-10 dollars just to do the discounts (because a lot of people only buy games at sales). So the thinking seems to be: "I want to sell my game for $2, so I'm setting the $8 price tag so that I can do a -75% discount.".

Moreover, I tend to think that if games were priced right, they would sell easier and not end up in bundles and on deep sales shortly after launch. I mean, at $2 I could buy every new Linux release and never look back even if most of them turn out crappy. On the other hand, there are also games that are well worth their listing price of $10, $20 or more, so I'm not saying that *every* game should cost $1 or $2. It's just that the devs seem to have no clue (you can even see them on the Greenlight pages stating that they have no idea how much the game will cost).

Anyway, what I was meaning to say is that sales are sometimes the only way to buy a given game at the *right* price. :-)

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So long as one has to be logged into steam to play games it most definitely is DRM. I recognize that not all games use steamworks and some can be run after downloaded without steam being open (off the top of my head the newer Paradox games do this). However, I think there's very much a real tendency for devs to forgo the DRM-free route in order to utilize steam's features and that sort of scenario will become rarer and rarer.

I think the real question is whether or not it's healthy for the PC gaming industry if Steam becomes the only real option for games. I know that GOG, and to a less extent uplay and origin, offer some competition but I worry about the day where there'll be no choice. As has been pointed out by previous posters, we're only renting games from Steam and there is always the possibility of losing complete access via a ban on the account. It might be a bit of an alarmist notion but Valve takes a very sledgehammer approach to its customers. As far as I know, for example, a VAC ban years ago on Counter-Strike will still affect an account that has bought newer games which uses VAC but has never seen the user cheat or exploit the system.

I apologize if I've come off as ranting in advance and if I've been clumsy in expressing my concerns about centralization and lack of choice.

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Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

Do I have to run to the store everytime I want to install the game? No! If I want to install the game I need the steam client and have to be online. THAT IS DRM!

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Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: EvolutionaryIf there is no difference between a web login and a download client, why not just do the web portal login like GOG and HumbleBundle? Because there IS a difference. Otherwise Steam would have allowed both according to the user's preference.

The reason is Steam WANTS people to use Steamworks which IS their DRM service that gives gamers added extras. That is the reason Steam doesn't do it and I thought that was completely obvious?

@Liamdawe
The extras could just be additional download links, just like GOG. Sorry, the logic doesn't fit. Code can be downloaded, and shouldn't need a client unless there are strings attached.

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I honestly don't mind DRM if the product is good and the price is reasonable.

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Quoting: EvolutionaryIf there is no difference between a web login and a download client, why not just do the web portal login like GOG and HumbleBundle? Because there IS a difference. Otherwise Steam would have allowed both according to the user's preference.

The reason is Steam WANTS people to use Steamworks which IS their DRM service that gives gamers added extras. That is the reason Steam doesn't do it and I thought that was completely obvious?

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Okay, my view: If you have to INSTALL anything to download your game that in itself is DRM. You say that it is no different than logging into a website. Actually it is VERY different. here's why:

A web browser (unless people start getting funny) has no interest in recording data on you. It is simply a client to view the data and is for HTML viewing. A STEAM client however, is for only one prupose: To control what you download. It is different from a web (or ftp) client in that it was only designed for that purposes. Even if the Steam client is open source, not everyone has time to review the source. For all a non-programmer, the client could have a few "mickies" slipped into the code (like backdoors are in MS Windows OS's for the NSA, especially Windows 8 if what I read in the tech news is correct). All of what we've know are possibilities are gradually getting exposed and it's worse than Orwell's 1984.

If an INDEPENDENT download client was used I might not be so untrusting, but let's get serious: If there is no difference between a web login and a download client, why not just do the web portal login like GOG and HumbleBundle? Because there IS a difference. Otherwise Steam would have allowed both according to the user's preference.

Why do so many companies want to get people to install apps on cell phones instead of just making a mobile friend site? Because Apps transmit more data, often without the user's knowledge. (sometime financial/private data) So I think the case is clear: The only reasons for Steam to have a client rather than a simple download, and the reason they don't just give the option for people who aren't comfortable, is because it IS a variation of DRM that is either active or leaves the option to be activated. That is why many companies who think they have the right to infect our computers with invasive DRM like Steam: They can slip us whatever we are blind enough to install. If we want our gaming to be safe and able to do what we want with our purchases, we have to send a clear message: Infecting our computers for their piece of mind is less profitable than playing straight with us and not infecting our computers with monitor/dial home/maleware. Unless we say "no" people will keep doing it. If they are serious about DRM free, they won't require us to download a special program that can potentially contain code that is DRM.

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Quoting: Anonymous

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

That's my point though, people claiming the Steam client by itself is DRM to me is being pedantic.

I wasn't disagreeing. :)

Oh don't worry I know :D, was just backing up our point :)

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Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

That's my point though, people claiming the Steam client by itself is DRM to me is being pedantic.

I wasn't disagreeing. :)

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DRM isn't as important as me having the option of playing my games on Linux.

Game Developers do it for the money, I prefer non-DRM but understand the reason some choose to include it and am fine with it.

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Quoting: AnonymousFollowing that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

That's my point though, people claiming the Steam client by itself is DRM to me is being pedantic.

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Following that logic, if I have to go to a store and buy a game on a disc, then the act of going to the store is DRM. If Steam is DRM, or a website is DRM, then there are no truly DRM-free games, are there?

There are several games that implement Steamworks, yet are released on the Humble Store before ever showing up in Steam. If you launch them with Steam running, you will earn achievements and trading cards, your time gets tracked, and so forth. If Steamworks was DRM, this type of thing would simply not be possible.

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I agree with Ryan. It is not Drm in and of itself but many games treat it as such.

That being said even if it were DRM it is the only example I can think of that has consumer advantages over a completely DRM free product. Look at library sharing, steam play, and steam cloud.

The best that can be said of other DRM is that it doesn't get in the way.

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I consider Steam DRM in the fact that you don't truly own your games. As we've seen in the past, Valve can and will ban someone from their service. That means all the games you've purchased go up in smoke. I can deal with Steam because it's unobtrusive and good DRM should be.

Before I went to Linux I bought all my games from GOG before I would go to Steam. Only time I went to Steam was to when something was on sale for 90%, even then I would still pick it up on GOG if I liked it and they had it. The Humble guys have a nice balance in which you can get your DRM free copy but use Steam as well.

I have a NAS setup with a backup copy of all my DRM free games. While I have no intention of pissing Valve off that doesn't mean something crazy doesn't happen and they revoke my account. We can't trust that Valve will be around forever, even if it looks like they will be.

**As noted if the game doesn't require Steam to run you can get your own backup copy but that requires the developer to program it that way. Not all Steam games are that way thus I generalize all games under the same assumptions.

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Quoting: pbMakes me wonder why people vote for some totally mediocre games while DROD still struggles to get to the top 100. Must be the "greenlight bundles". :-(

I have the same doubt about why a really cool game as cue club 2 hasn't been greenlighted yet. It's just because its not popular.
Have you visited http://whosgamingnow.com/? There is the reason why there are many bad games than have been already greenlighted, because people vote just to get a free key, and not because the game is good.

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I see a bubble waiting to burst with indie games. Not because there isn't demand or the games are low quality like in the Atari video game crash (quite the opposite), but because there is always a sale somewhere, which means no one ever pays full price and they will continue to get lower. It's a shame because this is kind of a golden age in gaming.

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Quoting: FireFlower GamesI honestly don't think a race to the bottom campaign is good for the industry even if it's an innovative campaign. It just makes people think games should be priced lower than they are and they are already priced low.
They could probably have come up with something better that would benefit the indie game scene more in the long run.

While I hear what you are saying, most of the games that go on sale are older titles, so you get to sell your game to people who would other wise never have bought it, or were sitting on the fence.

I can't tell you how many games I've bought that I would never have given a second glance, just because they were cheap and I had nothing to lose. Now I would happily pay full price for their sequels. I also end up spreading the word to all my friends who in turn may pick up one or two items and tell their friends etc.

I personally haven't bought a single title from Desura, but if I can get some bargains I will definitely check it out.

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Quoting: FireFlower Gamesthey are already priced low.

as a poor person, i disagree

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Quoting: AnonymousThe time comes to make the sequel. Cool Shooter 2, let's say. I code it with DirectX for Windows because Linux users bought it last time with zero effort on my part.

And what happens?..

Cool Shooter 2 uses Direct3D 11, 12 or higher and doesn't work under Wine so no Wine port and no money from linux

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I honestly don't think a race to the bottom campaign is good for the industry even if it's an innovative campaign. It just makes people think games should be priced lower than they are and they are already priced low.
They could probably have come up with something better that would benefit the indie game scene more in the long run.

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On the topic of Wine vs windows performance, keep in mind that FPS counters aren't really the best way to make the comparison. Wine has vast swaths of functionality missing, disabled or unimplemented. So despite having a higher FPS on a particular title, it might be skipping over all of the ambient graphics rendering that is slowing down the windows version...

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Quoting: liamdawe... (not) having two Steam installs for example, one in wine and one not ...

I have one native Steam install and several Steem installs in several Wine bottles (sharing one c:/progfiles/steam folder using symlink to save disk space) e.g. i have separate bottle for Witcher 1 which needs "winetricks dinput" for me but it (dinput) causes some other games not to work in the same bottle.
p.s. I'll be happy to see as many as possible Windows games in native linux Steam bundled with Wine... i refer to games which will never be ported to linux because of lost source code or hard dependence on WinAPI

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Well I bought witcher 2 and I am running it on ultra settings without problem,
probably due to my high spec PC that I just built with a nvidia GTX 770.
But I am really glad that witcher 2 is available on linux as there are very few games out that can really test my card (that I don't already own on other platforms).
So yeah it would be better if native but until they are, ports are fine, we should stop being so snobby about it.

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Quoting: pbMakes me wonder why people vote for some totally mediocre games while DROD still struggles to get to the top 100. Must be the "greenlight bundles". :-(

I must admit I have ignored the DROD games because of the first impression (graphics mainly). I didn't know I can try the first one for free, I promise I will give it a chance.

BTW. We should write a list with mostly unknown games that are awesome.

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@stan: That's not really a Windows executable. :) The game is written in Mono (which means .NET). That system is similar to Java. To run "Draw a Stickman" you need the Mono-Runtime. If that runtime is installed you can just run the "Windows executable". :)

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