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Oops, my bad I corrected that to say his FNA project thanks!

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Quoting: FutureSuture

Quoting: fedso

Quoting: FutureSutureHow much would a native port have cost as compared to whatever was done here? I am rather curious. It's not like the game is from over a decade ago and it's not like the source code isn't available either.

Definitely MUCH more (both in money and time) than the wrapper since they would have to port the engine first.

What about Valve's ToGL? Considering all of Valve's games that are on Linux now and run pretty damn fine, using ToGL sounds like a much better approach than eON.

That's what I've been asking as well.
Without knowing the actual numbers and prices, I wonder if a native port by "the well-known porters" wouldn't have been the better alternative. I don't see why this has to be necessarily more costly.

Having a look at the "Virtual Programming" website, they feature an upcoming port of "Dirt Showdown". It says upcoming release in Q3 and it's currently in beta. So this obviously takes quite some time and - (surprised face) testing. Hard to believe this is "cheap".

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First of all let me say this port is "kinda" playable for me. Now some more background info:
- i have the game as a box and on steam cause i support CDPR for their effort to bring DRM free games back than and nowadays
So after i saw it finally launched on steam i was realy realy happy. What happend:
1.) The configuration tool didn't suggest any useafull settings (all was set to low). I suspect this is cause of the local bug in the tool since my system locale is not english
2.) I started the game like 10 times till i figured out that because of this locale bug all my other settings where screwed too << keyboard & gamepad
3.) Once i figured and was able to set the gamepad to default i was finally able to play and bugged out on the tutorial ... i couldn't put a mutagen cause the raised skills wasn't mutable << at this time already 2h where spend i still had no real running game.
4.) Ok i restarted again and ignored the tutorial -> finally i was able to play
5.) Somewhere during the tutorial (i don't remember where) the framedrop was again so high , so i needed to adjust my settings once more
6.) After i got throu the prolog -> flotsam ... damm nothing again goes anymore frames so low that it hurts -> again change the setting

Now i compare this to windows .... setup the game on my even older pc configuration -> run the game with all settings beside uber.

I'm someone who uses pc's (dos / os2 wrap if someone reminds / windows / linux) for a long term and i'm often asked to help from my friends and family. Would i suggest them to buy the on linux -> omg no. Why i wouldn't? Cause basically , while i was able to fix and get it running and don't mind a reduced quality i can't expect that from them. Can i warn all the steamos user (later steambox buyers) that this game is not optimal for their system -> i can't! Do i want steamos and steamboxes be successfull -> i want! What does it mean for this game? No matter how much i want it / no matter how much i love cdpr for different reasons / no matter how much i wanna encourage cdpr to make more ports , i basically can't allow them to be as bad as this one.

To all the people who defending this port as a effort. Think a moment about the following ->
The xbox 360 cost around 100 to 150 bucks + the game it might be 120 to 170 bucks. A steambox might be 500 bucks + the game = 520 bucks. The out of the box experience on a system which cost 1/3 of a steambox is right of now much much better.

With that said if you defend this kind of ports you take away any good argument for linux being a viable gameing platform. If you don't mind picture quality you get for 1/3 of the price the game. If you mind picture quality you get for the same price a stressfree experience on windows. On this point we need to be honest ... the nerds won't make linux successfull (we are just a few) but the day to day user can make it successfull and for this people there is no reason to choose linux with such quality ports (even if they agree with loosing a few frames , which i doubt the powergamers which complains if they don't get 60fps will do! I have even read someone complaining for not geting 120fps cause a 120hz screen on linux).....

I totally agree with liam .. the dev is the wrong person here to attack but we realy need to find a way to show the overall picture. I hope that there will be enough business behind steamos end of this year so not we customer need to point this out but the business itself regulates this. Right of now it's hard to be a customer (which f... got a realy bad product) and a linux ethusiast (which at least got a product and so can show he want products).

In the end i know where i stand ... as much as i love linux ... this is a business and it's a contract i made when i payed. I can play a game and the publisher / dev delivers the game. Right of now the contract isn't fullfilled by the publisher / dev ... crashes , not working config tools and a performance which puts a shame on the product. If people still go for the other route ... welcome to what ea is doing on windows (take a look on the release of bf4 and all the problems).

I think you got me so i stop here ... all points are made, thanx to the people who make it down to this words.

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Quoting: AnonymousSomeone in this thread said how PS3 ports are/were crap, and they were shouted down for that not being any kind of excuse. Yes, a world with no bad ports would be great, but we don't live in that world, yet.


The PS3 argument is that the PS3 gamers continued to show support for developers &amp; publishers who provided games in the early years, even if those games didn't run as well as the Xbox versions. This often resulted in more money being spent on PS3 ports since the user base had proven itself to exist. Yes there is a danger of sending the message that poor performance is acceptable, but a bigger danger is sending the message that the user base doesn't exist. You just need to look at the Wii U to see what happens when no one buys games, they stop coming.

thanks on putting my comment into english that actually makes sense, lol.

i would just add one more thing. ps3 was in waaaaay more dire situation than linux is when multiplatform games were considered. it had completely different infrastructure based on SPU processing. porting to linux is like saying cake compared to porting to Cell with extra slow gpu and small amount of ram.

one has to remember that driver situation is kinda bad side of linux which developers are facing too, beside other linux quirks like case sensitive file system and so on... sadly, you don't see many people actually providing feedback. 1 out of 100 is doing that, 99 are doing the entitlement dance. instead of realizing that if you help fix up the root of the problem, you'll be facing shinier days

i was ps3 user from day 1 and i can say ps3 had it 10x worse than linux has it right now. but, when there was competition why ps3, even bad ports were named as reason, go figure. now, go and try finding public crucifixion of some developer

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Quoting: fedso

Quoting: FutureSutureHow much would a native port have cost as compared to whatever was done here? I am rather curious. It's not like the game is from over a decade ago and it's not like the source code isn't available either.

Definitely MUCH more (both in money and time) than the wrapper since they would have to port the engine first.

What about Valve's ToGL? Considering all of Valve's games that are on Linux now and run pretty damn fine, using ToGL sounds like a much better approach than eON.

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I mean it seems they put so much effort in the videos and cutscenes, but went downright lazy to the actual gameplay.

I guess it's because honestly I'll never be able to understand what people see in pixels. To me they're just absolutely awful. With a CRT they look nice because they ressemble (rudimentary) drawings, but on LCD monitors I find them hideous. The game mechanics look nice, though.

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(Developer Here)

Thanks for the post. Just wanted to quickly mention for clarity that while we are using Ethan's FNA project (and pushing bug fixes back to him as we work), he didn't actually do the port; we did it ourselves. Just don't want people having the wrong idea there.

Also if you do want to get the game on Desura, we'd appreciate people using the widget on our site: http://brushfiregames.com/shipwreck/?desura. If you buy from the widget on our site we get a slightly better revenue share (85% instead of the normal 70%) which helps us out and you still get the game on Desura.

Again thanks for pointing out the game and we hope everyone who picks it up enjoys it!

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Quoting: GuestHindsight is great, but there was no reason to think it wasn't a native port when it was released. It was only after inspecting the files from the downloaded game that this was determined. CDProjekt didn't state it anywhere (at least, not anywhere easily visible) prior to that.

The system requirements, specifically the CPU & RAM differences between Windows & Linux are a dead give away, you need to read between the lines but the facts are right there. The author stated he is well aware of crappy Mac ports using wrappers, then claimed ignorance in this case. That is sounding disingenuous & a lot like poutrage.


Someone in this thread said how PS3 ports are/were crap, and they were shouted down for that not being any kind of excuse. Yes, a world with no bad ports would be great, but we don't live in that world, yet.


The PS3 argument is that the PS3 gamers continued to show support for developers & publishers who provided games in the early years, even if those games didn't run as well as the Xbox versions. This often resulted in more money being spent on PS3 ports since the user base had proven itself to exist. Yes there is a danger of sending the message that poor performance is acceptable, but a bigger danger is sending the message that the user base doesn't exist. You just need to look at the Wii U to see what happens when no one buys games, they stop coming.


No we shouldn't accept poor ports forever, & new demanding games should run mostly native, but we need to accept the current reality.

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Man, when I saw the trailer at first I was like "Oooohhhh! Beautiful graphics!", but then when the gameplay footage started I was so disappointed...

I think it's a matter of coherence: if you wanna make a pixelated game then do everything pixelated, and if you're gonna make drawn videos make sure the actual game graphics are also drawn.

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Quoting: FutureSutureHow much would a native port have cost as compared to whatever was done here? I am rather curious. It's not like the game is from over a decade ago and it's not like the source code isn't available either.

Definitely MUCH more (both in money and time) than the wrapper since they would have to port the engine first.

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Quoting: GuestHindsight is great, but there was no reason to think it wasn't a native port when it was released. It was only after inspecting the files from the downloaded game that this was determined. CDProjekt didn't state it anywhere (at least, not anywhere easily visible) prior to that.

Actually the hardware requirement was so unbalanced between Windows and Mac/Linux that it was possible to guess there was something going on. I personally thought it was wrapped with Wine and I bought it even if my machine is not meeting the minimum requirement as a way to tell the developers that considering Linux as a viable platform was not an error, it was quite cheap anyway.

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How much would a native port have cost as compared to whatever was done here? I am rather curious. It's not like the game is from over a decade ago and it's not like the source code isn't available either.

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Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: scaineAnd one more thing - this editorial is based on us "accepting" the port. When did we do that? I had this game in my library from some bundle I bought years ago - and I suspect most did too.

What constitutes our "acceptance". Buying the game? Too late. Playing it? Well, it's working great on my system. Are you suggesting I don't play it because a minority are having problems?

And is it a minority? How many people are actually affected by this terrible port that works really well for me?

I get it. You're angry because it doesn't work for you. Doubly so, if you bought the game. But using your editorial power to trash a company's efforts to enter the Linux market? Based on supposition?

No. I'm not supporting that.

I purchased the game believing it was a properly tested native port,

...

If you don't like my opinion, don't read it.

Native port, just like Mac, right? Since the Mac port was the grounds for the Linux port to be made "easily", right? If you had exercised an ounce of deductive reasoning you would have known it wasn't native.

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Quoting: pd12Why we think it's eON?
Benchmarks:
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/29958-Linux-issues-and-user-solutions?s=bfc51ea74da412c48d4dd56a647cd80e&amp;p=1302703&amp;viewfull=1#post1302703
Results - https://imgur.com/a/NuTrl

yes, it is eON fault, but major problem was first specified by developer that got attacked so badly. eON does not switch to full screen, which doesn't disable compositing.

there are also people who say it is otherwise and eON performs well. right now, it is pretty much known fact that if you switch to lighter WM like metacity, performance more than doubles. gnome-shell is extra terrible here

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Wine and likes would be good on olds games. But in games yet to released please a native port!

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Why we think it's eON?
Benchmarks:
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/29958-Linux-issues-and-user-solutions?s=bfc51ea74da412c48d4dd56a647cd80e&p=1302703&viewfull=1#post1302703
Results - https://imgur.com/a/NuTrl

And then like Samsai said, the base game shouldn't have changed between the Windows version and the wrapped version. The fact that even some people get an extra 20fps perf on WINE over the eON wrapper when eON is specifically targeted for Witcher 2 is just mindblowing.

"The toolkit used to port doesn't matter" - you mean it doesn't matter in regards to end-result perf? Because it DOES matter if the toolkit is the thing causing the bad perf. And from what we can see, it's eON (the toolkit) that's causing the bad perf for many people. This is why Liam said it's naive to think that the toolkit doesn't matter.

Edit: I personally don't buy really expensive games and got it only because it was on sale for $4. Whether it was worth it or not depends on if I can play it on Linux, and right now I'm leaning on downloading from GoG and using WINE instead. 15GB steam download wasted, unless they push updates.

Edit2: http://steamcommunity.com/app/20920/discussions/0/522728268811804386/ see this for some fixes if you're running the steam/eON version.

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but what is there to accept ?

wither 2 is an old game, the fans of this kind of game will have had it in their library ages ago because they played it under wine long ago. It now pops up in our library under Linux.

It's unrealistic to think that Project Red will spend money on a port of an old game that has been on so many sales that the chances of it bringing any return of the investment are slim. That does not mean that what they did was good but its understandable.

I do agree with you on bad ports but we should focus our anger on new games that try to get away with this, for wither 2 just load it up under wine and enjoy it big time :)

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: SamsaiWhy do I care about a thing that makes the game to now work properly? Because I own it and I expect a non-beta release to work. People have pointed out that eON is most likely the cause for these problems and that means that they need to improve eON to run this game better.

Well sure. But do you know it's eON? The only people that can tell us for definite is CDPR and then we're back to my argument. I don't care if it's eON. I'd just want them to fix it.

Liam, in his last answer, suggests that previous eON ports for Mac have been bad too. Again, that has a lot of supposition, but if even he's right what can you do about it?

Obviously you can stop ever buying games that have eON in them, but there's two problems with that attitude.

1. How do you know?
2. Some eON ports work fine, so you could be avoiding a perfectly good game.

So I'd rather focus on the game itself rather than banging on uselessly and ineffectually about a component that works well in other situations.

I think the dev who went onto the Steam forum admitted that they had problems with Linux, which lead to decreased performance, so there have to be problems with their port. And because they didn't change the base game and just packaged it with eON, that leaves eON to blame for the performance.

Your second point is really off-topic, but now that you mentioned it, I have never heard of any eON games that worked perfectly. And I think you also said in an earlier message that you don't know other eON ports on Linux, so I doubt you know a single perfect eON port on Linux.

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Also if anyone wanted to write a counter-article to my own on why things like toolkits don't matter, why ports like this are okay yadada feel free.

Anyone can write an article to show on GOL.

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I didn't saw it that way before reading your article. Great post !

I still think wine can be good for ports, but only when it works really well. Right now, I guess it should be almost never.

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My opinion changes all the time, in this one instance I just do not agree with yours Scaine it's that simple and is not an attack on you at all. It's not an attack on anyone, it's just my opinion which I and you and everyone else is free to state.

If I was truly disregarding peoples comments and opinions I wouldn't reply with my own thoughts on it.

If they fix up eON to the point of The Witcher 2 running well for me and the vast amounts of other people that it runs so terribly for then my opinion on eON itself will probably quite rightfully change.

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Quoting: liamdawe@Mr Anonymous

Another person not looking at the whole picture, this isn't about just Witcher 2 it's just an example. I'm guessing you don't understand my point on this at all.

Like I stated before, the Mac ports using eON are also terrible and I've play-tested them myself. They received very little after-care from VP (makers of eON).

I don't need a reality check thanks I am perfectly fine.

that is my point exactly. it isn't just about witcher or about linux. you just wrote it 100% like this. and to make it more affirmative about direction one only needs to read your comments

you either suffer from same problem as me. non native english speaker from slavic country where usual direct translation to english always sounds harsh or you really should rethink your editorial if you didn't put too many personal emotions into it

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Quoting: liamdaweThat is how I feel Scaine and it won't change, again it's my opinion and as an editor I will always state it and clearly mark it as an editorial when I do so.

That's a big problem. Having an opinion. Good. Stating opinion in editorial? Good.

Disregarding arguments that could change your opinion? Ignoring arguments completely? Having your mind so made up that "it won't change". Ever?

That's definitely not good.

Tim Minchin puts it really well : http://www.timminchin.com/2013/09/25/occasional-address/

QuoteA famous bon mot asserts that opinions are like arse-holes, in that everyone has one. There is great wisdom in this… but I would add that opinions differ significantly from arse-holes, in that yours should be constantly and thoroughly examined.

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@Mr Anonymous

Another person not looking at the whole picture, this isn't about just Witcher 2 it's just an example. I'm guessing you don't understand my point on this at all.

Like I stated before, the Mac ports using eON are also terrible and I've play-tested them myself. They received very little after-care from VP (makers of eON).

I don't need a reality check thanks I am perfectly fine.

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Quoting: SamsaiWhy do I care about a thing that makes the game to now work properly? Because I own it and I expect a non-beta release to work. People have pointed out that eON is most likely the cause for these problems and that means that they need to improve eON to run this game better.

Well sure. But do you know it's eON? The only people that can tell us for definite is CDPR and then we're back to my argument. I don't care if it's eON. I'd just want them to fix it.

Liam, in his last answer, suggests that previous eON ports for Mac have been bad too. Again, that has a lot of supposition, but if even he's right what can you do about it?

Obviously you can stop ever buying games that have eON in them, but there's two problems with that attitude.

1. How do you know?
2. Some eON ports work fine, so you could be avoiding a perfectly good game.

So I'd rather focus on the game itself rather than banging on uselessly and ineffectually about a component that works well in other situations.

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Quoting: liamdaweIf a company cannot act on feedback why the hell should anyone care about them?

lol

let's see.

one dev jumped right into the problems in matter of minutes just to be shredded by people for no reason since all accusations were more than probably over his pay grade or not in his power

not even 2 days pass and liam whines all over the net how no one cares. guess it would be time to have your regular reality checkup

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Samsai

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: scaineBut what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.

I'm curious, do you know of any other game ported to Linux with eON? Or is it the first one? From what I understand there might have been a few games released for Mac using it, right?

No, I don't know. Because I don't care. The result is what matters. Does it work well? Great. Don't care how it was done.

To be clear, I'm talking about ports of older games. I'd prefer future games to be made "properly", but you have to be realistic about this.

Well, I agree it does not matter provided it works well. That's not exactly the case in this instance. What if eON is the issue? Then it matters.

Well, this is digressing into the first argument all over again and I don't feel like talking about pizzas, geeks and the fashion industry all over again. I've stated my case. eON is irrelevant. The game "The Witcher 2" is what we should be talking about.

Okay, let's assume that eON is irrelevant. What is it that makes The Witcher 2 Linux "port" crawl on apparently most hardware combinations?

I don't care. As a customer, I simply want CD Projekt RED to fix it. I'm curious. Why do you care?

Why do I care about a thing that makes the game to now work properly? Because I own it and I expect a non-beta release to work. People have pointed out that eON is most likely the cause for these problems and that means that they need to improve eON to run this game better.

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I bought Witcher 2 before it had circulated that the port was bad. I haven't been able to run it yet! It just segfaults. I'm thinking of getting a refund but I only spent $4 on it.

Reading here though, I am now certain that I will attempt to get my money back. Not because it was $4, but because if enough people clamor for their refunds the company will hopefully listen.

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That editor comment doesn't sound that bad reading the other half of the paragraph:

QuoteMy perspective is that given the intelligence of Linux gamers, CD Projekt should have been upfront about how the game was to be “ported” from Windows. Instead, it now has a few pages of vitriol on the Steam forums over the debacle.

Anyway now that the trolls are getting tired (I'm kind of suspicious of all those level 0 gamers) the real spirit of Linux community is coming out: LETS FIX IT on LINUX instead of complaining!, I just hope eOS or whoever on the devs side will take advantage of this.

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I'd rather developers not port their games at all, than make ports that work for a fraction of their customers on Linux. It just makes Linux look bad to potential users.

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