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Quoting: "Hamish, post: 5783, member: 6"Looks a bit too Multiplayer focused for my tastes.

Why the hate for multiplayer? It will have a proper single player campaign too though.

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What will happen if you do not hit the Kickstarter goal?

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Quoting: "Beemer, post: 5792"I wrote that comment on GOG about "JUST ASK"(tm?). It *is* that simple to get the ball rolling.

All they have to do to start is say "Hey - we'll support the DOS box games to start. Here's a forum, here's a .tar.gz of the dos files. Please submit instructions for various distros on how to get dosbox and/or gameX working and we'll post it in a support site/wiki/something".

Within a day, I'd bet they assign some wiki editors for this to compile the docs (and probably be overwhelmed :) ). BUT - *they* have to:

Take files they already have, and make .tar.gz of them.
*JUST ASK* for assistance
Compile the docs/how-to's/etc that the community will provide.

Heck, they could even go the route of "Hey - we'll trial this for DOS games. We'll provide the basics, you guys provide the instructions". Again, not hard. Just some time invested on both sides.

Starting with the DOS games makes it super easy for GOG and Linux users:

DosBox is already well established in Linux, so dependency suprises should be kept to a bare minimum.
There's plenty of existing DOS items in GOG to use.
Providing a .tar.gz of the game files is lower cost than packaging the game with a tweaked DosBox.
There are already Linux users buying DOS games there (albeit not officially sanctioned).
GOG can get a great feel for how this could go while having a pretty easy out.

I think this argument can work against us. Since users already know how to do it by themselves and will work their way out, why should GOG invest resources and money?

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As for the packaging, I don't like installing foreign packages, they taint my system in unpredictable ways. I'd rather have the whole game in a directory with some script that makes the desktop launchers, make it an automatic installer and that's the best we could have. You don't want the packages carefully crafted by your distribution developers mixed with some low quality packages done by unexperienced people.

I'll say it again, stop trying to support distributions directly, companies don't know how it works and it's too much work for them to do it. They can cooperate as we're seeing with Ubuntu by using their Software Center to distribute games, or elaborating new ways together with the people that create the distributions. That's the way I see companies should mainly work along with the community.

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Giving support doesn't mean GOG should fix all broken systems out there, I guess that's not what they do for Windows. They won't fix your library mess or clean your computer from virus, they'll tell you to reinstall maybe. Windows programs already package a lot of their own libraries, sometimes making an interesting mix in your system.

In GNU/Linux is safer and easy to do a bootstrap for your own games, you use your own libraries and you're almost done. They should rely a minimum on the underlying systems, Linux kernel, libc, sound and video drivers, that's all. Still there'll be problems because libraries have bugs and drivers too, but doesn't any platform have bugs?

Libraries take care of Alsa/Pulseaudio/OSS/Xorg/OpenGL/desktops or anything else. If your system is not broken and has the required subsystems correctly working you're leveled to a Windows user. If your system is broken the problem is the same as a Windows user with a broken system (not a few.)

I mean, I know it's quite some work to support a new platform, but I don't agree it's because there's a lot of distributions. There's a lot of Windows installs and a lot of differences between them and still they give support, they won't say there's too many different Windows system configurations (hardware and software) for them to support.

I'm not an expert, but I have the strong feeling that they're taking the easy route by blaming the platform instead of admitting they're not that interested.

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Or possibly just package the files like humble bundle does. Leave the support to linux users and forums. Im pretty sure all of us Linux users know where to find support. I know that many people run into the same problems, and we all do a great job helping eachother out.

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been an interesting debate here :)

if GoG would want to do linux support the first that they must do is create a download client that runs nativly under linux. Secondly they need to make their own linux installer like they do with all current (window) games.

There would be no need to zipping and tar balls, like with windows games you download (either via their client or directly from your GoG library page) the GoG installer.

Once they got that running they will need to split their games into 3 groups: native linux (some of the new indy games they do), dosbox, windows.

native linux would simply be a download, run GoG installer and your done except for the part where you need special dependencies.

dosbox games would basicly be the same, and it would make most sense they include a dosbox with the game, I seem to recall they do this with windows versions also. Again this would be a simple download, run the GoG installer and your done.

now the windows games is more of an issue, they could make a wine package like codeweavers did for that HiB game but the problem there would probably be an outcry from people saying wine is not linux, and it's not but how else you gone play old windows games on linux, you can not expect them to re-write them to linux libraries.

To be honest I would think dosbox games would be the most easy to start with and support.

Wine bundles made by codeweavers would be okay too, would generate some income for codeweavers and they would run on most linux distro's without issue.

The native linux games probably bring the biggest challenge.

Anyways they would not have to start with all 3 types at the same time.

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oh thank you

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I wasn't aware of that either. So that's a template and for each game page (and per distro), we can add sections with a basic how to. If there are deeper instructions past the basic stuff like you need dosbox, suchandsuch dependency for that, etc, then you make a sub page (if my understanding of that section is correct).

As a beginning template, here's some stuff I came up for Arch Linux (which could be edited for other distros or made more generic to fit most distros):
====Arch====
 
=====Requirements=====
DOSBox
* Available from the 'community' Arch repository
* Current package version (as of 10/16/2012) is 0.74-3
* Install using 'pacman -S dosbox' or, if using non-root account, 'sudo pacman -S dosbox'
* Always make sure to check your desired game [http://www.dosbox.com DOSBox] for version compatibility.
 
=====Optional=====
WINE
* Can be utilized to install GOG executables from which you can then extract the files needed to use with DOSBox
* Available from the 'community' or 'multilib' (for 64-bit users) Arch repositories
* Current package version (as of 10/16/2012) is 1.5.14-2
* Install using 'pacman -S wine' or, if using non-root account, 'sudo pacman -S dosbox'
 
InnoExtract
* Can extract the files from an 'Inno Setup' executable, with which you can then extract the files needed to use with DOSBox
* Available from the Arch User Repository
* Current package version (as of 10/16/2012) is 1.3-1
* Install package by downloading the package from AUR and using 'pacman -U packagename' or by using an AUR utility such as 'packer' or 'yaourt'

So we could paste that into games as we purchase and test. Any scripts that help (for example, backing up save games - StarFlight comes to mind...) with that game can go in a sub-page.

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Great, even better! I wasn't really aware of it, but I'll try to help out there then. I'll get on it this weekend, since I've got piss-all time during the next couple of days, and its too late to start today.

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For all of you talking about starting a wiki: there already is [URL='http://gogwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page']a community operated GOG.com wiki[/URL] and while it's not Linux-specific, the [URL='http://gogwiki.com/wiki/GOGWiki:Standard_product_page_layout']product page template[/URL] has a section unofficial Linux compatibility - a good start would be filling that out for all games that run under Linux.

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This is what I'm referring to. GoL is just a part of the Linux gaming community and already a handful of people here are asking "what if we just did a wiki?".

The community can and will step up if asked. If nothing else, it's a great way to get the ball rolling.

I do agree that leaving everything to the community may not best for the long run. However, it's a fine way to start and one that I think the Linux customers of GOG would be happy to start with.

Beemer

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Quoting: "Rustybolts, post: 5795, member: 13"I wonder if AirBuccaneers is from the same team that made the unreal tournament mod of the same name.

It [URL='http://www.ludocraft.com/games/airbuccaneers/frequently-asked-questions/#faq1_1']seems so[/URL] :)

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Good luck

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Yeah, Tim Schafer has probably summed it up best, but I feel like the story is different for storefronts like GOG or Steam. His quote is pretty accurate for all indies though.

Still, to a certain extent, GOG has relied on the community to do those things, and then sometimes officially integrated the features. Could we not potentially just try doing a wiki for the sake of other users? We might be able to see then some actual numbers in regards of Linux users on GOG.

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Free-2-play
About free-to-play model: most of the games abuse this model, making it impossible to play without money (or success without money).
In my previous game, top-1 was a player who never payed, never. Most of the goodies are social and services, like extended chat powers and etc. 90% of things can be bought for both types of money - 'real' and game.

In other words, if you are lazy - you can buy for real, if you are skilled - you will get it in game. If you are unskilled, lazy and don't have money - you will get it, but it will take a while. This is a skill-money-time triangle that is now broken in 99% of games, and this sucks.

Click-n-go
About click-n-go - yes. Can't help you there. Imho, modern people simply don't have so much time as before to learn controls of sims, or sink in game for so long as it required to play Eve. Click-n-go is easy for everyone and it's not making game worse: you are fighting, grinding, interracting; you still can show your skills in combat by wisely chosing tactical moves or when to use this or another item.

Resume about click-n-go: casual rules don't make game simple or primitive. References - chess, poker, go (weiqi).

Dixit!

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Hi guys, my name is Anti and I'm leading development.
If you have questions, feel free to ask, I'll be checking thread from time to time.

Thanks to everyone who backed us! We will make it only because of you.

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The thing is, this obviously can be done; Desura is already doing it in fact. But I do agree that just saying "the community will solve all problems" is a bit of a misnomer. I also think that it is actually not that difficult to get support ready on Linux, but at the same time you have to be realistic and handle it in a proper and professional way. What we need now more than anything is for a proper professional to step in a show them how it should be done, rather than just the screaming of the community.

Tim Schafer's words come to mind:

QuoteLinux was like a party that sounded fun [but] we were afraid to go to because we didn’t think we’d know anybody there, and the HiB guys were like your socially fearless friend who says, “Don’t worry, we’ll go together.” When he gets to your house he says: “Is that what you’re wearing?” and you say, “uh…” and he says, “Don’t worry. I know a guy.” And he lends you a cool leather jacket and you go to the party and when you walk in there’s a needle scratch and everybody turns to look at you and your friend gives a cool nod and then everybody goes back to the party. So kind of like a John Hughes film. Hope that helps explain things. That’s about as technical as I can go. I just hope I don’t accidentally knock over a beer can pyramid that some tough guys are building. Oh and also, if you want to be cool at the party, stay away from wine. (haha! Linux joke!)

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/06/humble-bundle-devs-talk-gaming-on-linux

I think that basically sums everything up quite nicely. Just replace HIB with whoever has the knowledge and experience to step in and fill this particular void.

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Quoting: "Anon, post: 5796"Community behaviour is a major problem, since one never knows what might happen. Although the GOG forums are extremely well behaved so far, and I just can't see that changing.

That much is true. But then again, there's no telling who the 7000 voters are, for starters, and how they'd interact. I know I haven't used the forums so much, I probably would if GNU/Linux support happened and would certainly help where I can, as best I can, but what of others?

QuoteI still don't understand why can't they just have a .zip/.tgz alongside the .exes. I hate the fact that they need to be installed to be unpacked right now, which means if I suddenly decide to install a game, I have to have wine.

They don't. Just install innoextract, and run innoextract ./setup_game.exe :)

QuoteAnd about multiple distros - maybe just the biggest ones? Ubuntu, Fedora and SUSE. That should provide enough coverage in packages that everyone will be happy, and then it's solved. Three distros is still much easier than three Windows versions.

Mmh... Yes, no, maybe. I don't have a problem with it. I'm a tinkerer at heart, so anything would do. I see a hint of a problem though. No offense, but Ubuntu pretty much hosts both chaff and wheat. I don't know about SuSE. Fedora's more for the happy regular user in my experience. How do we distribute? .deb/.rpm? Puh-lease, no. You may support only those officially, but you can't be unaware that others exist. Plus, you're forcing people to install in a predetermined folder, usually with admin rights. Maybe I'm a grumpy old fool, but a "portable" version, inno installer, good ol' sh with tgz, anything would be better. You'll find just as many who'd rather have packages. How do we solve that? Three versions? Thrice the work. :/

QuoteMaybe in the meantime, we could get a nice wiki going, and just provide best configs, share launchers and tips on running the games. Would it be possible for one to start such a thing? Perhaps PCGamingWiki would be of some help, or maybe one of the porters that runs multiple wikis for Linux users about games? I'd gladly contribute by writing, testing and getting others on board, if we can get the ball rolling.

That would be a good thing, regardless of whether GOG sees it, acknowledges it and thinks about it. But don't forget that GOG is a business and has partners. It doesn't just depend on them. I sincerely think they need professional support before they can get this rolling. Not just for themselves, but also because a community isn't good enough for the fools out there who allow GOG to distribute their games. Seriously, I feel everyone's shooting the messenger here. ;)

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Community behaviour is a major problem, since one never knows what might happen. Although the GOG forums are extremely well behaved so far, and I just can't see that changing.

I still don't understand why can't they just have a .zip/.tgz alongside the .exes. I hate the fact that they need to be installed to be unpacked right now, which means if I suddenly decide to install a game, I have to have wine.

And about multiple distros - maybe just the biggest ones? Ubuntu, Fedora and SUSE. That should provide enough coverage in packages that everyone will be happy, and then it's solved. Three distros is still much easier than three Windows versions.

Maybe in the meantime, we could get a nice wiki going, and just provide best configs, share launchers and tips on running the games. Would it be possible for one to start such a thing? Perhaps PCGamingWiki would be of some help, or maybe one of the porters that runs multiple wikis for Linux users about games? I'd gladly contribute by writing, testing and getting others on board, if we can get the ball rolling.

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I wonder if AirBuccaneers is from the same team that made the unreal tournament mod of the same name.
Octodad is one of the better ones for myself.

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Ah, sure wish you had put it that way in your comment. It makes much more sense.
Still, there are a few things that are wrong - to me, at least.
* Community support? Fine and dandy. But it's still no support. Not sensu stricto, at least. Saying "got a problem? Check that with the community, we don't got nothing to do with that" isn't exactly professional. You can't blame GOG for not trusting the community either. The communities are full of helpful people, people who know their way around the system... But also full of noobs, and a handful of trolls. Not good enough.
* DOSBox .tar.gz - can't say I disagree with you on this particular point. Though I'm not certain you won't have people crying out loud that they want proper packaging and a ppa and then some. And maybe even some money too. May sound sarcastic, but it happens a bit too often. And some people couldn't ldd a binary to save their own life. Not sure they're not one and the same too. I tend to think .tgz is THE way to go as it's universal, where packages aren't, but how many don't?
* Then there are the OTHER games. Indies? Sure, enough of them have native binaries out there. But people will probably come on the GOG forums for support. If only the devs can solve it, there's no guarantee they'll be checking the forums often enough... Which may - and probably will, as GNU/Linux isn't exactly the engineer's hobby OS anymore - lead to further frustration. Then there's WINE. And the rest.
* GOG, as you say, is a company. They won't take "go to the community forum". Heck, I wouldn't. I want a SPOC. SomeONE I can trust. SomeONE I can build a commercial relationship with. That is ONE person or a relative small group of people. A helpdesk, one may say. Because tons of people can click on the shiny icons, half of those people are able to copy/paste weird lines in the black window and a quarter of those people are able to write said weird things themselves doesn't make them a SPOC. It doesn't make them a POC at all. As helpful as they may be. When GOG files a bug that impacts 85% of distro X users, they want it to be treated as it is: a P1 ticket, solved ASAP with strict SLA, with someone who can keep them updated on how things are going and can be held accountable if it turns into a PR nightmare.
* They *DO* have to support multiple distros. Saying it's unneeded is saying "who gives a f*** what version of windows?'. A Win7 won't have the same issues as a Vista or an XP. Heck, I'm willing to bet a good chunk of my pay your kernel isn't my kernel. I'd probably win.
All that you propose isn't bad either, mind you. But it would only be good enough for unofficial support. And are the publishers GOG works with willing to support THAT? Heh. Ubisoft doesn't even know how to treat customers right, and you expect them to understand such a thing as "unofficial, unsupported versions"? :|

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I only upvoted Interstellar Marines because it looked silly with its quadrupedal sharks >_<

Out of the most recently "greenlit" batch, I'm most looking forward to Octodad and AirBuccaneers :)

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I wrote that comment on GOG about "JUST ASK"(tm?). It *is* that simple to get the ball rolling.

All they have to do to start is say "Hey - we'll support the DOS box games to start. Here's a forum, here's a .tar.gz of the dos files. Please submit instructions for various distros on how to get dosbox and/or gameX working and we'll post it in a support site/wiki/something".

Within a day, I'd bet they assign some wiki editors for this to compile the docs (and probably be overwhelmed :) ). BUT - *they* have to:

Take files they already have, and make .tar.gz of them.
*JUST ASK* for assistance
Compile the docs/how-to's/etc that the community will provide.

Heck, they could even go the route of "Hey - we'll trial this for DOS games. We'll provide the basics, you guys provide the instructions". Again, not hard. Just some time invested on both sides.

Starting with the DOS games makes it super easy for GOG and Linux users:

DosBox is already well established in Linux, so dependency suprises should be kept to a bare minimum.
There's plenty of existing DOS items in GOG to use.
Providing a .tar.gz of the game files is lower cost than packaging the game with a tweaked DosBox.
There are already Linux users buying DOS games there (albeit not officially sanctioned).
GOG can get a great feel for how this could go while having a pretty easy out.

That last point probably needs some clarification. If for some reason GOG thinks the venture is worth it, neither party is really left in the lurch - existing doc's could be made downloadable and .tar.gz (or even just .zip) still left as an option to DosBox users. (To be honest, if it wasn't going to work out, I would guess they'd simply leave it at DosBox games being 'best effort' supported and let the community police it's own issues.)

Any doc's can be moved to another forum or made downloadable.

Also, while I'm sure people would be upset that 'official' support for Linux DosBox compatible games were dropped, they really would not be worse off than before. Probably a bit better (since there were at least some doc's now).

Does all this take some thought to actually put into action? Yes.
Does it take GOG working with the community and vice-versa? Yes.
Will it take time to fully work out? Yes.
Is it hard? Nope.

Don't accept the 'it's too hard' excuse. Call it out as 'BS'. Companies like GOG just need to understand we'll help make it easy if they would 'JUST ASK'.

I mean, really, 7000+ customers basically stating "here, take my money" and they reply "oh, no...that would be too hard".

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Quoting: "Hamish, post: 5783, member: 6"Looks a bit too Multiplayer focused for my tastes.

Yeah prefer a single player games myself. Multiplayer doesnt interest me really

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Hmm... everyone seems to be liking each other today. ;)

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They are preparing a Kickstarter campaign which should start in this month or in November.

There are also more games using Unity3D that has been [URL='http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/?controller=sharedfiles&appid=765&method=browse&browsesort=pending&browsefilter=pending&p=1']Greenlighted[/URL].

[URL='http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92993746&searchtext=']Folk Tale[/URL]
[URL='http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92650164&searchtext=']AirBuccaneers[/URL]

Other Greenlighted games with Linux version:

[URL='http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92916900&searchtext=']Project Zomboid[/URL]
[URL='http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93000640&searchtext=']Postal 2 Complete[/URL]
[URL='http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92915329&searchtext=']Octodad: Deadliest Catch[/URL]
[URL='http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92927895&searchtext=']Towns[/URL]

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Well, I've been doing my bit - rebuying games I already have just so I can get a DRM-free version. Not often, since I don't have the cash to just waste it on games, but I definitely prefer to go through them.

Maybe we could knock the Linux activity up a notch on their forums? Provide info on running each game on Linux and help, make threads on each forums for each game and we could show them we are there and active. Maybe would lead them actually invest time into Linux. Just no spamming!

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Yes, I certainly agree to that. As I said, I agree with most of what you are saying. But I did feel I had to point out, in fairness, that the system does work. Of course you have to provide support, and they have been doing that for years on Windows (and have sometimes had to jump through quite a few hoops to get things working there to). The same can be done on Linux, and it is not all that much harder to do on Linux compared to Windows. We just have to make it worthwhile for them to do so.

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Do not take me too personally, for I am a cynical bastard, but I can suggest a few points.

Mostly I find your premise amusing, putting these dark little lives on these characters. I mean, I had no idea that I had to be afraid of "meth-heads" and having our place burned down by bandits. In fact, the only real crime we have had committed against us was when some drunk careened off the road and smashed into one of our fences. Then, adding insult to injury, the bastard CUT the wires so that he could get his vehicle out, leaving a gaping hole, and then careened off again. So the next morning our neighbour to the south woke up, hung over from being at a wedding the day before, to see our big Black Angus bull starring back at him from his front door. Thankfully, he took it fairly genially. If you want to add that as an event in your game, you are more than welcome. But the only really druggies we have around here are pot heads running grow-ops. ;)

To me it seems like you are trying to artificially add some drama to a situation - but there is already enough drama in being a family farmer. Have you ever spent an entire weekend trying to save the life of a newborn calf only for it to die on you because it was a dud? Or to actually be able to keep one going? Have you ever encountered a hen being caught by a hawk, still alive, and wondered whether or not you should put it out of it's misery or not? Or just in general deal with a collapsing flock? Have you ever seen the loss of an entire generation of calves due to blackleg? Have you ever had to shoot a cow because it had neurological diseases, like my mother has? And while I am not much of a crop farmer, have you ever thought of the fear of an early frost, or the spread of fungal infections (wheat out our way has been plagued by it this year), or an explosion of locusts? Or getting too much rain or not enough? You do mention predation, and that is a good start, but there is so much more material you could work into this.

But of course the primary fear is always going to be economic. Just take this year for example - because of the United States drought people down south are selling off their herds, lowering cattle prices. Then, to make matters worse, we just had an e-coli scare which has lowered consumer demand, shaken confidence in the beef industry, and has taken one of the largest meat packing plant's out of commission. We do not even know whether or not we are going to be selling our calves this year, as we are quite concerned that we will not get a decent price four our honestly quite excellent calves. Now, we do not depend on the income this brings, but imagine if we did? This can apply to anything sold on an open market. We do however have hay expenses which this eats out of, and that is a problem. The real drama in being a family farmer is that you can net really live off being a family farmer.

Another thing which would be good to add to your game, if you really are intent on telling our stories, is just how capable someone has to be to do this. You have to be a builder, a carpenter, a nurse, an electrician, a plumber, an accountant, and yes, even sometimes a psychologist, as these animals are not as dumb as you may think. In fact, if you want the player to interact with eccentric and interesting characters, all you really have to do is give the animal's themselves their own personalities. Just telling stories about the funny, irritating, or plain bizarre behaviours of our bull Pedro alone could fill up an entire post.

And these are just a few thoughts. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I do find it amusing and yes, even a bit patronizing, when I see someone go into this and not truly seem to understand all the realities of it. Now, I am not sure of your background, so maybe you know more than you are letting on, but on first brush this seems to be really fanciful, more based on a certain romantic notion than any real sense of understanding. I hope I have given something for you to think about.

However, you are an Indie developer, and it is your game. So have fun and make the game you always wanted to make. Only take my suggestions on board if you really want to. But most importantly have fun and make the game you always wanted to make. Do not let us cynical bastards get you down. ;)

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