Something that has been talked about on our shoutbox/chatbox is that Revenge of the Titans will be removed from Desura.
That's the sad news out of way, it's a shame it seems like Desura needs to do a lot of work to accommodate developers and help them with publishing updates, something it seems Gameolith does a better job of so far (no complaints from anyone about them - plenty about Desura...).
Now for the good news - They have released a new version which will be up on the Humble Bundle #2 which features;
New mouse handling - completely re-done the mouse in the game.
General fixes to do with drivers - if the game wouldn't run before it might now!
Not many new features but it should in theory work a lot better.
Update - Cas from puppygames was kind enough to visit to give us an idea on what is happening (read the comments), it may even return to Desura with an auto-updating version solving the issues! Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
QuoteThis part of the post is likely to attract all manner of hate and flames, but it has to be said: Desura wasn’t working for us. We spend just as much time and stress figuring out how to release software on the Desura platform as Steam, but unfortunately make literally 1/1000th of the money. So little in fact I don’t think Desura have even managed to pay us any money yet. It doesn’t make sense for us to support Desura any more, and so we’re not. Don’t get me wrong – it’s a great client, their hearts are in the right place, but… we’re on Steam.
So my humble apologies to anyone with their eggs in the Desura basket. Contact us if you’ve got any issues.
That's the sad news out of way, it's a shame it seems like Desura needs to do a lot of work to accommodate developers and help them with publishing updates, something it seems Gameolith does a better job of so far (no complaints from anyone about them - plenty about Desura...).
Now for the good news - They have released a new version which will be up on the Humble Bundle #2 which features;
New mouse handling - completely re-done the mouse in the game.
General fixes to do with drivers - if the game wouldn't run before it might now!
Not many new features but it should in theory work a lot better.
Update - Cas from puppygames was kind enough to visit to give us an idea on what is happening (read the comments), it may even return to Desura with an auto-updating version solving the issues! Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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This is sad news for the Linux gaming community. With Desura at least someone has stepped in to provide a steam-alike for Linux.
I can not really comment the amount of work necessary to apply a patch via Desura for their specific system but as a publisher I would work together with them to ease the process. Turning away sounds way to cheap for me.
Well, WTF did they expect ?
Different distribution system require different activies to adapt your software in order to enable distribution.
So what ? And how can they be so ignorant that Desura does magically gets them more or equal money as Steam ?
1st: Steam is a much longer time available and has a much bigger publicity = more peoples willing to buy.
2nd: Desura is pretty new and needs to grow.
Desura has its issues. Currently I suffer from update issues with Dungeons of Dredmor. Would I move away from Desura because of this ? Nope...simply because I dislike keeping all those selfburned CDs / DVDs in my shelf keeping stuff I downloaded from different game companies (e.g. Borderlands DLC). Like it or not: Stuff like Desura or Steam are the future. Retail boxes will still stay there but may be as collectors edition / steelbox only.
Yeah, and it makes no sense to buy games which aren't available on Desura, and so I will not do so.
I can not really comment the amount of work necessary to apply a patch via Desura for their specific system but as a publisher I would work together with them to ease the process. Turning away sounds way to cheap for me.
QuoteWe spend just as much time and stress figuring out how to release software on the Desura platform as Steam, but unfortunately make literally 1/1000th of the money. So little in fact I donu2019t think Desura have even managed to pay us any money yet.
Well, WTF did they expect ?
Different distribution system require different activies to adapt your software in order to enable distribution.
So what ? And how can they be so ignorant that Desura does magically gets them more or equal money as Steam ?
1st: Steam is a much longer time available and has a much bigger publicity = more peoples willing to buy.
2nd: Desura is pretty new and needs to grow.
Desura has its issues. Currently I suffer from update issues with Dungeons of Dredmor. Would I move away from Desura because of this ? Nope...simply because I dislike keeping all those selfburned CDs / DVDs in my shelf keeping stuff I downloaded from different game companies (e.g. Borderlands DLC). Like it or not: Stuff like Desura or Steam are the future. Retail boxes will still stay there but may be as collectors edition / steelbox only.
QuoteIt doesn't make sense for us to support Desura any more, and so weu2019re not.
Yeah, and it makes no sense to buy games which aren't available on Desura, and so I will not do so.
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I agree with you Darksoul for me services like Desura and Gameolith serve as a decent library backup so I don't have to waste cd/dvd's.
I beleive the Desura issue with DoD has now been sorted as well :)
I beleive the Desura issue with DoD has now been sorted as well :)
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Well Gameolith was nice and wrote us back, so I think I should recant what I said about them.
As to Desura, I do forget they are the only digital distribution service that I know of that offers DRM on Linux games, so I guess I can't forget about them.
As to Desura, I do forget they are the only digital distribution service that I know of that offers DRM on Linux games, so I guess I can't forget about them.
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The Titans guys as well as the Brandon are full of sh#t. While there isn't any profit on Desura, it provides smooth experience for me as a developer. Patching is a breeze. Setting game's page and similar tasks are easy. The only reason for complains is bad coding practices on Linux platform by the developers. The Titans game engine is in no way as complex as Darkplaces engine, and yet, Darkplaces engine runs well on any Linux distro under Desura (and without it). Oh well, I hope other developers will try it first before crying about it.
As far as DRM on Desura, who the fk spreading such rumors?! Desura is DRM free, unless developer implements his/her own DRM. Most of the games for Linux run without Desura client running. If you don't know the subject, don't say anything.
As far as DRM on Desura, who the fk spreading such rumors?! Desura is DRM free, unless developer implements his/her own DRM. Most of the games for Linux run without Desura client running. If you don't know the subject, don't say anything.
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Hello youse,
this is Cas from Puppygames. I'm not sure many people have really understood what our problems are with Desura, so I would like to clarify for you.
The Desura client and interface is perfectly good (if wretchedly slow), and about as difficult for us to manage as working with Steam. However, both Steam and Desura are black boxes to us - they take and keep our customers, not to mention a big chunk of the money. In the end we are really supporting their business, not ours. We are aware that Steam is the 800lb gorilla of the downloadable hardcore games market and that they haven't got any credible competition. We would have liked Desura to compete at least to the point of making it worth our while, but as I have said, Desura have made us so little money compared to the time we've put into supporting it - including writing this post here - that we've just dropped them like a hot potato. We're ditching all our other online outlets apart from Steam or direct, and if we had the option we'd drop Steam too, except Steam account for 95% of the money that keeps a roof over our heads.
We understand that you feel massively entitled to have your games "automatically updated" for you through Desura, but on this I have a few things to say which might make you think a little further than your own problems.
Firstly, we've provided constant ongoing support and patches and new content for Revenge of the Titans completely for free for the entire year. The new 1.80.14 patch has a completely new game mode in it just for Christmas. If you don't want to play it and you're too lazy to deal with a .deb or .tar.gz, you don't have to download the new version! Problem solved.
Secondly, there are about 20 of you. Have we got this straight? There are 20 of you Desura customers. Most of you aren't even Linux users. Exactly how much effort would you go to, to support growing someone else's business at your own time and expense, to make about 5 people too lazy to download free stuff even happier?
Thirdly, as Linux gamers you are probably aware you are in a tiny, tiny minority, even of general Linux users. Linux makes developers lives very difficult. The unhelpful comment above from that other dev dude who says we're full of shit at least lets me rest easily knowing that he is unsuccessful. If he was successful he'd know that 90% of all the support issues we deal with are the cranky, weird, strangely configured, fucked-about-with Linux desktops that tend to be out there in the wild. That said we've still managed to distribute about 50,000 games to Linux (rough guess) and by and large they work.
Now if you don't want to buy any more games from us because we're not on Desura any more - I'm really sorry, but it's not worth our time to support you any more than we already do. Puppygames is just me, and Chaz (and now Justin), and we already have our plates full dealing with the 300,000 or so Windows and Mac users on Steam, rather than the 5 of you Linux users on Desura.
tl;dr - Desura has not made enough effort to market our games and we haven't made any money from it and haven't the resources to continue worrying about it; if you want a free Puppygames registration to replace your Desura one please contact me.
Cas :)
this is Cas from Puppygames. I'm not sure many people have really understood what our problems are with Desura, so I would like to clarify for you.
The Desura client and interface is perfectly good (if wretchedly slow), and about as difficult for us to manage as working with Steam. However, both Steam and Desura are black boxes to us - they take and keep our customers, not to mention a big chunk of the money. In the end we are really supporting their business, not ours. We are aware that Steam is the 800lb gorilla of the downloadable hardcore games market and that they haven't got any credible competition. We would have liked Desura to compete at least to the point of making it worth our while, but as I have said, Desura have made us so little money compared to the time we've put into supporting it - including writing this post here - that we've just dropped them like a hot potato. We're ditching all our other online outlets apart from Steam or direct, and if we had the option we'd drop Steam too, except Steam account for 95% of the money that keeps a roof over our heads.
We understand that you feel massively entitled to have your games "automatically updated" for you through Desura, but on this I have a few things to say which might make you think a little further than your own problems.
Firstly, we've provided constant ongoing support and patches and new content for Revenge of the Titans completely for free for the entire year. The new 1.80.14 patch has a completely new game mode in it just for Christmas. If you don't want to play it and you're too lazy to deal with a .deb or .tar.gz, you don't have to download the new version! Problem solved.
Secondly, there are about 20 of you. Have we got this straight? There are 20 of you Desura customers. Most of you aren't even Linux users. Exactly how much effort would you go to, to support growing someone else's business at your own time and expense, to make about 5 people too lazy to download free stuff even happier?
Thirdly, as Linux gamers you are probably aware you are in a tiny, tiny minority, even of general Linux users. Linux makes developers lives very difficult. The unhelpful comment above from that other dev dude who says we're full of shit at least lets me rest easily knowing that he is unsuccessful. If he was successful he'd know that 90% of all the support issues we deal with are the cranky, weird, strangely configured, fucked-about-with Linux desktops that tend to be out there in the wild. That said we've still managed to distribute about 50,000 games to Linux (rough guess) and by and large they work.
Now if you don't want to buy any more games from us because we're not on Desura any more - I'm really sorry, but it's not worth our time to support you any more than we already do. Puppygames is just me, and Chaz (and now Justin), and we already have our plates full dealing with the 300,000 or so Windows and Mac users on Steam, rather than the 5 of you Linux users on Desura.
tl;dr - Desura has not made enough effort to market our games and we haven't made any money from it and haven't the resources to continue worrying about it; if you want a free Puppygames registration to replace your Desura one please contact me.
Cas :)
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I guess in the end it boils down to this:
Those with good patch management (= a strategy how to build and roll out patches to your software) will always have an easier life using services like Steam or Desura. Games with less external dependencies will have less issues I guess.
Excuse my ignorance but to me delivering a program / game without DRM to the customer is more or less identical to what every package manager does. No matter how complex the engine or game design is, as long as it runs with all libs inside one folder I can hardly imagine that the usage of Steam, Desura or whatever distribution platform you use is really an issue.
If you are using a flexible, solid build process for your program it should be too hard to adopt. Otherwise either you or the company providing the distribution platform has done something wrong.
Those with good patch management (= a strategy how to build and roll out patches to your software) will always have an easier life using services like Steam or Desura. Games with less external dependencies will have less issues I guess.
Excuse my ignorance but to me delivering a program / game without DRM to the customer is more or less identical to what every package manager does. No matter how complex the engine or game design is, as long as it runs with all libs inside one folder I can hardly imagine that the usage of Steam, Desura or whatever distribution platform you use is really an issue.
If you are using a flexible, solid build process for your program it should be too hard to adopt. Otherwise either you or the company providing the distribution platform has done something wrong.
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Cas, for a start I want to thank you for your detailed post on the subject. People were clearly speculating with a lack of knowledge so hearing everything straight from the horses mouth was greatly apprecaited.
When reading your post, something struck me. You said that there were 20 Desura customers. This confuses me as RoT was in a massively selling Humble Indie Bundle and that gave out Desura keys. I didn't buy RoT on Desura, but unlocked it in the Bundle, and am sure many others did too. My question is two fold: Was the number 20 only those who had purchased the game directly through Desura; and if not, have you considered all the Desura customers who bought the game in the Bundle and play it through Desura?
Well, thanks again for your post and details. It was very illuminating.
When reading your post, something struck me. You said that there were 20 Desura customers. This confuses me as RoT was in a massively selling Humble Indie Bundle and that gave out Desura keys. I didn't buy RoT on Desura, but unlocked it in the Bundle, and am sure many others did too. My question is two fold: Was the number 20 only those who had purchased the game directly through Desura; and if not, have you considered all the Desura customers who bought the game in the Bundle and play it through Desura?
Well, thanks again for your post and details. It was very illuminating.
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@Cas: Thanks for taking the time and for clarifying things !
Only partially true ! I would consider this more a chicken-egg-problem ! Without games any games distributor can not work of course, but without game distributor you have to sell the games by yourself.
True, but as Indy dev you are probably aware that you are a tiny minority yourself between all those gazillions of Indy devs which have poped up in the www during the last few years. Many companies are doing niche games for a niche market. Ok, 20 additional users is really not much per se and may be even close to nothing compared to your steam, but most puppy games I bought and played are some fun for quite a while but in the end I never played them as long / often as other Indy games I have.
This depends on the design of your program. In general any program with less external dependencies (e.g. static linked libs instead of relying on system libs) plus a selfcontaining folder keeping all the relevant data will run on pretty much any Linux box. At least given a suitable hardware is available. The most major issues beside PEBCAK I can imagine should only be things like "game installer has not generated a desktop link / icon for your game.
I have several games such as Darkplaces or Ioquake which I can copy between pretty much any distribution / PC I have and they still run fine.
Hm, I would put it wise versa: If you are not on Desura then I am really sorry because then you are "not worth my money" (so to speak).
QuoteIn the end we are really supporting their business, not ours
Only partially true ! I would consider this more a chicken-egg-problem ! Without games any games distributor can not work of course, but without game distributor you have to sell the games by yourself.
QuoteThirdly, as Linux gamers you are probably aware you are in a tiny, tiny minority, even of general Linux users.
True, but as Indy dev you are probably aware that you are a tiny minority yourself between all those gazillions of Indy devs which have poped up in the www during the last few years. Many companies are doing niche games for a niche market. Ok, 20 additional users is really not much per se and may be even close to nothing compared to your steam, but most puppy games I bought and played are some fun for quite a while but in the end I never played them as long / often as other Indy games I have.
QuoteLinux makes developers lives very difficult.
This depends on the design of your program. In general any program with less external dependencies (e.g. static linked libs instead of relying on system libs) plus a selfcontaining folder keeping all the relevant data will run on pretty much any Linux box. At least given a suitable hardware is available. The most major issues beside PEBCAK I can imagine should only be things like "game installer has not generated a desktop link / icon for your game.
I have several games such as Darkplaces or Ioquake which I can copy between pretty much any distribution / PC I have and they still run fine.
QuoteNow if you don't want to buy any more games from us because we're not on Desura any more - I'm really sorry, but it's not worth our time to support you any more than we already do.
Hm, I would put it wise versa: If you are not on Desura then I am really sorry because then you are "not worth my money" (so to speak).
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Ok Cas, you got me. I am not as successful as you, but you are only successful because:
1. You have been longer in the business.
2. HIB profits were great and somehow you got a big chunk on the pie.
Simply put it - you are a hypocrite!!! Yes, exactly that! You blame Steam and Desura for being black boxes, but HIB is exactly the same way. It's a group of guys who decide what games get a share and what games get used to benefit HIB group. To my knowledge you are one of those guys who can say: "No, I don't want this game in the bundle" or "no, this dev won't get equal cut". That's what happen to my game. John told me that few guys in the group didn't want for us to get equal share, so the game went as bonus. It was used to benefit HIB business. Not only we got only ~0.5% off the HIB profit, which totaled ~2 million dollars, but we were also denied promised user base. Just like Steam/Desura doesn't let you get a hold of your users, so does HIB. So, look at the mirror first before pointing finger.
As far is minor market share for Linux, yes, it's true. And again, the reason is simple - lack of structure that allows to reach all these users. OilRush made $40k+ in pre-orders, and most of that money were made with Linux gamers.
Linux gamers also prefer higher end visuals, so RoT is not something that fits the description :P
While I understand that Desura doesn't generate profit, I do not understand why exactly you abandon it? If it's as easy (sometimes it's easier than Steam) to maintain as Steam, we can eliminate technical component of dealing with patches. So we are left only with one piece of the puzzle - bad code design. If you designed your game to run on Win/Mac and then suddenly decided to hop on the Linux wagon, you will have issues. Guaranteed. The app has to be designed with Linux in mind from the ground up. Then you will have no issues. So please, no need to make it sound like Linux is sh#t OS and has no gamers, willing to pay for games.
I get no profit from Desura either, but it doesn't bother me to performs a few clicks to get an update out, which works right out of the box and contribute to growth of Linux as a gaming platform with Desura's help.
1. You have been longer in the business.
2. HIB profits were great and somehow you got a big chunk on the pie.
Simply put it - you are a hypocrite!!! Yes, exactly that! You blame Steam and Desura for being black boxes, but HIB is exactly the same way. It's a group of guys who decide what games get a share and what games get used to benefit HIB group. To my knowledge you are one of those guys who can say: "No, I don't want this game in the bundle" or "no, this dev won't get equal cut". That's what happen to my game. John told me that few guys in the group didn't want for us to get equal share, so the game went as bonus. It was used to benefit HIB business. Not only we got only ~0.5% off the HIB profit, which totaled ~2 million dollars, but we were also denied promised user base. Just like Steam/Desura doesn't let you get a hold of your users, so does HIB. So, look at the mirror first before pointing finger.
As far is minor market share for Linux, yes, it's true. And again, the reason is simple - lack of structure that allows to reach all these users. OilRush made $40k+ in pre-orders, and most of that money were made with Linux gamers.
Linux gamers also prefer higher end visuals, so RoT is not something that fits the description :P
While I understand that Desura doesn't generate profit, I do not understand why exactly you abandon it? If it's as easy (sometimes it's easier than Steam) to maintain as Steam, we can eliminate technical component of dealing with patches. So we are left only with one piece of the puzzle - bad code design. If you designed your game to run on Win/Mac and then suddenly decided to hop on the Linux wagon, you will have issues. Guaranteed. The app has to be designed with Linux in mind from the ground up. Then you will have no issues. So please, no need to make it sound like Linux is sh#t OS and has no gamers, willing to pay for games.
I get no profit from Desura either, but it doesn't bother me to performs a few clicks to get an update out, which works right out of the box and contribute to growth of Linux as a gaming platform with Desura's help.
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