Some of you may know of the game Cardinal Quest (a fast paced rougelike - it's pretty cool go check it out) by a guy named Ido Yehieli, well he wrote a blog post I have been meaning to bring to light for a while but kept forgetting (I have a back log of articles to cover!).
The blog post is titled Why Bundles and Steam Sales Aren’t Good for Most Indies (read it) and brings to light some problems with what is currently going on in Indie land for a few developers, he isn't the first one to call out on the problems either - one of our frequent visitors Alex from Kot-In-Action (who make Steel Storm) when I interviewed back in October 2011 also mentioned how bad a time he had being included in a Humble Indie Bundle as a bonus game.
So what do you all think about bundles and massive sales cutting out a lot of revenue for Indies? Personally I am very torn on the issue as the Humble Indie Bundle guys have gotten a lot of games ported over to Linux which then later on mostly get included on Desura for purchase as well.
Developers like Frictional Games have had one of their games included in a HIB (Penumbra) but their other game Amnesia judging from their posts on their blog and forum has done well for itself staying away from these kind of sales.
Update 09/01/12;
As pointed out by Robert is that Frictional Games - Amnesia sold most of it's copies when it was on sale and most of them at a reduced price of up to 66%!
It seems everyone has such different opinions on the matter and it has created some heated discussion in the comments/replies! Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
The blog post is titled Why Bundles and Steam Sales Aren’t Good for Most Indies (read it) and brings to light some problems with what is currently going on in Indie land for a few developers, he isn't the first one to call out on the problems either - one of our frequent visitors Alex from Kot-In-Action (who make Steel Storm) when I interviewed back in October 2011 also mentioned how bad a time he had being included in a Humble Indie Bundle as a bonus game.
So what do you all think about bundles and massive sales cutting out a lot of revenue for Indies? Personally I am very torn on the issue as the Humble Indie Bundle guys have gotten a lot of games ported over to Linux which then later on mostly get included on Desura for purchase as well.
Developers like Frictional Games have had one of their games included in a HIB (Penumbra) but their other game Amnesia judging from their posts on their blog and forum has done well for itself staying away from these kind of sales.
Update 09/01/12;
As pointed out by Robert is that Frictional Games - Amnesia sold most of it's copies when it was on sale and most of them at a reduced price of up to 66%!
It seems everyone has such different opinions on the matter and it has created some heated discussion in the comments/replies! Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Some you may have missed, popular articles from the last month:
The comments on this article are closed.
Wow I didn't think me pointing out a post I found interesting to provoke such a response from everyone, although it's nice to see the website does have lurking visitors!
Point 1 - Please everyone keep it cool, players and game developers alike this applies to all of you, please do not attack other members and be sure to use the "report" button if you are really badly against what someone is saying to you. - Note to self check article replies more often! I often miss posts buried in pages of comments.
I agree on most of your points to be honest apart from the sweary bit at the end.
Point 2 - In hindsight I should have added in more articles as pointed out by Robert (thanks!). Although I did note in the article this was a problem "for a few developers" most developers as pointed out elsewhere seem to be reasonably happy with how things are going on.
Glad to see everyone has such varied opinions!
I think after reading the posts i agree wholeheartedly with Cheese on this one;
If people are interested in your games they will keep an eye on you, that is generally how I do things, any developers from HIB's that had games which where decent I bookmark and check up every couple of weeks.
I think nowadays if you don't have an RSS feed for your news or a twitter account for news then you are missing out. Maybe that's something HIB could do in the future, post a link to the twitter account of each dev for people to follow - that could easily solve a few issues I think.
Point 1 - Please everyone keep it cool, players and game developers alike this applies to all of you, please do not attack other members and be sure to use the "report" button if you are really badly against what someone is saying to you. - Note to self check article replies more often! I often miss posts buried in pages of comments.
Quoting: "Joe, post: 3057"Do you really expect that all those 250k users want to pay $5+ for a sequel that (as far as we know) may never come out? We don't know how dedicated you are to this, or how long it will take. Your only one person, so how is throwing money at the problem gonna help YOU code faster? If I like a game I'll look into updates/sequels myself, I certainly wouldn't want you e-mailing me unless I signed up for it. If you really wanted to reach all your current users then you should have built in a news section in the menu of the game that updates over the internet, don't rely on a third party to inform these people. And finally, don't whine cause you can't fund shitty game with a shittier game.
I agree on most of your points to be honest apart from the sweary bit at the end.
Point 2 - In hindsight I should have added in more articles as pointed out by Robert (thanks!). Although I did note in the article this was a problem "for a few developers" most developers as pointed out elsewhere seem to be reasonably happy with how things are going on.
Glad to see everyone has such varied opinions!
I think after reading the posts i agree wholeheartedly with Cheese on this one;
QuoteMoving back on topic a bit more, bundles and sales are a way to potentially reach people beyond those that have existing interest, and you have absolutely no idea whether they have positive or negative predispositions towards your game (which can be a double edged sword).
If people are interested in your games they will keep an eye on you, that is generally how I do things, any developers from HIB's that had games which where decent I bookmark and check up every couple of weeks.
I think nowadays if you don't have an RSS feed for your news or a twitter account for news then you are missing out. Maybe that's something HIB could do in the future, post a link to the twitter account of each dev for people to follow - that could easily solve a few issues I think.
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Cheese directed me to this thread and I thought I'd throw in a few more words on the matter:
https://plus.google.com/102593483001615978126/posts/AbUoJU4snw7?hl=en
https://plus.google.com/102593483001615978126/posts/AbUoJU4snw7?hl=en
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"having its employees/partners knock similar projects and go so far as to make it problematic for another company to try a bundle system, even when it has a genuinely interesting experiment in place (Indie Royale/Desura anyone?)."
What?
What?
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Quoting: "Kame, post: 3068, member: 102""having its employees/partners knock similar projects and go so far as to make it problematic for another company to try a bundle system, even when it has a genuinely interesting experiment in place (Indie Royale/Desura anyone?)."
What?
Apparently the HIB guys aren't very friendly towards Desura since they started their own bundles. Don't know how much of it is true or not.
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Cheeseness Jan 10, 2012
As I understand it the dynamics between the Humble Bundle guys and Desura have changed, though there is still at least a friendly relationship between them.
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Yeah I imagine it would have changed it's sad to hear about really it's no wander the HIB guys don't really put Desura keys on anymore if Desura took their whole business idea heh.
I do prefer HIB over Indie Royale for obvious reasons (Linux support). But I would pick Desura over bundles anyday.
I do prefer HIB over Indie Royale for obvious reasons (Linux support). But I would pick Desura over bundles anyday.
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Cheeseness Jan 10, 2012
IndieRoyale doesn't have the charity thing going for it either, and the beat-the-minimum thing seems a bit like a moneygrabbing gimmick (customers competing with customers never sits well with me unless there's some kind of Good Cause, and a lower minimum for other buyers doesn't quite fit that description for me). I'm not saying it's explicitly bad, just that it's not attractive to me, especially without some sort of guarantee of Linux support.
The Humble Bundle guys have said it's more a question of whether or not the games are already on Desura more than a concerted "No Desura keys" policy.
The Humble Bundle guys have said it's more a question of whether or not the games are already on Desura more than a concerted "No Desura keys" policy.
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HIB has ALWAYS said that it is up to the game devs. That's why many of the bundles that did have Desura keys were missing a game or two: The devs didn't want the games on Desura.
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There were some legitimate points in that Google+ post, and I do not agree entirely with how Jeffery Rosen and Co have been handling it recently either. Especially the point about over saturation and the fact that the original Humble bundle traditions have slowly been eroding. I mean, the last time we got even the hint of a source code release was really with the Humble Frozenbyte Bundle (the Introversion one does not really count since they were playing with the idea before, in various forms). Plus, as I have said before, the recent pace of Bundles has been, in my opinion, unsustainable and tarnishing the brand.
I would limit it to only three or four bundles a year; that would raise the quality, which is actually quite important if you look at the money earned. The Bundles which earned the most were the ones with the most planning and work put into them, namely Bundles #1, #2, #3, and #4. The ones in between were all considerably more sluggish, and often came across somewhat crassly. Especially the Frozen Synapse one, which seemed like a massive ego trip for one game made by one developer. What ever happened to being humble? Adding bonus games on top of these only makes things come out worse; what is wrong with these games that they are considered merely a "bonus" but the one splattered on the title page is god incarnate?
I mean, no offence to the Introversion games in of themselves, but the one from the bundle I am spending most of my time with is Dungeons of Dredmor (and thank you again for giving me that KIAaze). And yes, the first HIB #3 game I am planning on playing when I get to them going is going to be Steel Storm, and it was Steel Storm that was my primary motivation to buy it in the first place (happy Alex?). The bonus system, while maybe adding more value to the buyer, adds an inconsistent tone when it comes to which developers they feel want to support, which stinks, maybe unintentionally, of conspiracy. On the same token, in other ways the HIB developers do not seem to be using their powers of discretion enough.
Now, all praise be with them in that they have unfalteringly mandated the multi-platform nature of the Bundles, and have been giving both Ryan C. Gordon and Edward Rudd a lot of good business for the past year. But, one problem with the Bundles that I had hoped Desura was going to solve, was the fact that a Linux port appears for a bundle, and then can not be purchased from anywhere else unless the individual developers cares enough to put in some other mechanism. And then we have a whole new situation of abandonware. I wish more pressure was on them to put these games out there after the fact. There is also the recent lack of interest in source releases; I mean, Rosen, do not tell me Apple's screw up has turned you against the concept completely?
Actually, in many ways the name just does not fit any more. The games, or at least the developers, are not that Humble, they are a publisher in their own right now so not really that Indie, and Bundle, well, look at Frozen Synapse. Now, with all that being said, this is not going to stop me from buying Bundles. Looking at the history of left-wing and alternative politics, there has always been the problem of too much fracturization and arguing, meaning they had trouble moving forward in a consistent direction. The Linux community could be considered the same thing in a way, the alternative group, and we must keep supporting those which can benefit us. Gordon is not incorrect to say the Bundle's might just be the best thing to happen to Linux gaming, at least for the last few years.
But I am not going to sugar-coat it just because something is useful; you can disagree with something on some respects but still support it because it is legitimately the best offer, and the Bundles still definitely qualify as that, no question. If anything, it is because I support the Bundles that I am posting this. But the fact I had to bring up a political analogy says a lot, that I have begun to have to treat it in the same way. And, like in politics, if another camp has a legitimately better claim, you should go and support them. But, for the moment, the rest all seem corrupt and greedy. So Humble Bundle it is then.
I would limit it to only three or four bundles a year; that would raise the quality, which is actually quite important if you look at the money earned. The Bundles which earned the most were the ones with the most planning and work put into them, namely Bundles #1, #2, #3, and #4. The ones in between were all considerably more sluggish, and often came across somewhat crassly. Especially the Frozen Synapse one, which seemed like a massive ego trip for one game made by one developer. What ever happened to being humble? Adding bonus games on top of these only makes things come out worse; what is wrong with these games that they are considered merely a "bonus" but the one splattered on the title page is god incarnate?
I mean, no offence to the Introversion games in of themselves, but the one from the bundle I am spending most of my time with is Dungeons of Dredmor (and thank you again for giving me that KIAaze). And yes, the first HIB #3 game I am planning on playing when I get to them going is going to be Steel Storm, and it was Steel Storm that was my primary motivation to buy it in the first place (happy Alex?). The bonus system, while maybe adding more value to the buyer, adds an inconsistent tone when it comes to which developers they feel want to support, which stinks, maybe unintentionally, of conspiracy. On the same token, in other ways the HIB developers do not seem to be using their powers of discretion enough.
Now, all praise be with them in that they have unfalteringly mandated the multi-platform nature of the Bundles, and have been giving both Ryan C. Gordon and Edward Rudd a lot of good business for the past year. But, one problem with the Bundles that I had hoped Desura was going to solve, was the fact that a Linux port appears for a bundle, and then can not be purchased from anywhere else unless the individual developers cares enough to put in some other mechanism. And then we have a whole new situation of abandonware. I wish more pressure was on them to put these games out there after the fact. There is also the recent lack of interest in source releases; I mean, Rosen, do not tell me Apple's screw up has turned you against the concept completely?
Actually, in many ways the name just does not fit any more. The games, or at least the developers, are not that Humble, they are a publisher in their own right now so not really that Indie, and Bundle, well, look at Frozen Synapse. Now, with all that being said, this is not going to stop me from buying Bundles. Looking at the history of left-wing and alternative politics, there has always been the problem of too much fracturization and arguing, meaning they had trouble moving forward in a consistent direction. The Linux community could be considered the same thing in a way, the alternative group, and we must keep supporting those which can benefit us. Gordon is not incorrect to say the Bundle's might just be the best thing to happen to Linux gaming, at least for the last few years.
But I am not going to sugar-coat it just because something is useful; you can disagree with something on some respects but still support it because it is legitimately the best offer, and the Bundles still definitely qualify as that, no question. If anything, it is because I support the Bundles that I am posting this. But the fact I had to bring up a political analogy says a lot, that I have begun to have to treat it in the same way. And, like in politics, if another camp has a legitimately better claim, you should go and support them. But, for the moment, the rest all seem corrupt and greedy. So Humble Bundle it is then.
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Cheeseness Jan 10, 2012
Quoting: "Hamish, post: 3075, member: 6"Plus, as I have said before, the recent pace of Bundles has been, in my opinion, unsustainable and tarnishing the brand.
I had an email conversation with Jeffrey last year that addressed those points (and some others).
There are some pretty obvious branding and expectation management failures there that they're looking for ways to overcome, but the general gist of it was that they are running a couple of bundles per year (the "Indie" bundles), and Jeffrey's question back to me (and I suppose to anybody questioning their additional promotions) was "...does that mean that we should not do anything else?" With hundreds of thousands of people buying them, it's not really possible to deny that there is demand for the smaller scale stuff, and so long as they can separate them from the "indie" bundles as different brands, I don't personally have a problem with it.
Quoting: "Hamish, post: 3075, member: 6"There is also the recent lack of interest in source releases; I mean, Rosen, do not tell me Apple's screw up has turned you against the concept completely?
The Humble Bundle guys still recommend source code releases, but that's down to the developers. Apparently it's never been considered a tenet or core requirement of any of their promotions (again, an expectation management issue?). It seemed indicated to me that though the Lagaru AppStore thing was a disappointing incident, it hasn't diminished their believe that making source available is positive and worthwhile.
I agree that there's potentially a very big problem when Linux ports of games aren't otherwise made available. It's difficult too because that's generally not a problem that's visible to people who purchased the bundles (I spent a long time waiting for Trine to be released on Desura, but I probably wouldn't have noticed it missing if I had picked up the Frozenbyte Bundle when it was released).
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