Steam's Beta games confirmed and Linux better than Windows for gaming?

Quoting: "Bumadar, post: 5978, member: 93"Valve did not really care for Linux until Microsoft mentioned the App Store and the simple fact that only App Store programs are allowed on the (metro) UI and that App Store programs are not allowed to install software on windows 8

This isn't really the case, since porting work had been going on since before Metro, etc. were announced. I imagine it put a bit of pressure on though (whether through genuine dislike or through the opportunity it might provide for facilitating a stronger Linux launch (their customers who're loyal to Windows are locked into using Steam by their game libraries, so Valve have nothing to lose and lots to gain by publicly talking about how bad they think Windows 8 is/will be regardless of whether that's a true representation of Valve's internal attitudes).

Quoting: "Bumadar, post: 5978, member: 93"On another note, I mentioned this before, but what will happen to the Linux community when windows people will start using Linux because Steam brings out games for it, they will come into a totally different desktop experience and things not always run out of the box like they are used to, will the forums and the community be able to handle the comments/rants/expectations of all those new users ?

This is a question I've been posing for a while. I think the answer will be no. We're not prepared, and it's going to end up being pretty overwhelming, both from the perspective of the drop in median skill levels, but also from the influx of people who don't know or don't want to know about the Free Software movement. I have no idea whether it's going to end up leading to positive or negative community experiences, but it's definitely going to be fairly intense for the first 6 to 12 months.

I wrote [URL='http://cheesetalks.twolofbees.com/tf2.php']an article[/URL] last year when Team Fortress 2 went "free to play", looking at some of the negative behaviours that had emerged. I think a lot of parallels can be drawn between the situations (at least at this early stage), and I suspect we'll see some similar dynamics where older users will become concerned with the changes in dominant attitudes/behaviours, and newcomers will feel alienated by that. I just hope that everybody is rational enough that it doesn't get as out of hand as TF2 community did for the first 3 to 6 months.

To be fair, the assumption of large user growth might be nothing more than hot air.

Quoting: "Hamish, post: 5997, member: 6"To be fair, the assumption of large user growth might be nothing more than hot air.

Sure, it's speculation. It seems a pretty safe assumption that there will be a lot of curious people though, not to mention people who previously dual booted reassessing whether Linux is appropriate as an exclusive desktop OS.

Edit: It's interesting [URL='http://steamcommunity.com/actions/GroupList?sortby=SortByMembers&filter=ogg']to note[/URL] the rate at which the official Steam for Linux group has been growing without much promotion (it hasn't been featured in a Linux blog post yet, and people who aren't already interested in/following Valve's Linux efforts would be fairly unlikely to hear about it). It passed the official Skyrim group this morning.

Bumadar wrote:

[INDENT=1]On another note, I mentioned this before, but what will happen to the Linux community when windows people will start using Linux because Steam brings out games for it, they will come into a totally different desktop experience and things not always run out of the box like they are used to, will the forums and the community be able to handle the comments/rants/expectations of all those new users ?[/INDENT]
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Bumadar, did you just step out of a time machine from the late '90's? I avoided Linux for years because I believed outdated ideas, such as Linux needing more technical expertise than Windows. 8 years ago, Windows still had a slight edge, but that 'out-of-the' box advantage disappeared a couple of years later. For the past 3-4 years, Windows XP, Vista, and 7 have fallen very far behind when it comes to the tech skillset needed to install and maintain. I went to Linux because XP was unacceptably unstable for me, and I still run both Windows and Linux installs for friends several times a year. Windows installs are a royal pain, mainly for the need to check for drivers and hardware compatabilities, and this goes for current as well as hardware that's 3-4 years old. My luck has been that a Windows install will take 3-6 hours, where an Ubuntu or Fedora install will take 30-45 minutes. This also applied one day 3 years ago when I was installing Windows XP and Ubuntu side-by-side on new, freshly-purchased, identical hardware sets. The Windows install would have taken longer than 6 hours, but I gave up on the onboard audio driver and put in a PCI audio card as a shortcut. Even my first Slackware install last year was far, far easier than the Windows 7 install that I handled around the same time (the wireless card in Windows 7 was a NIGHTMARE, even though MS listed it as being Windows-7 ready!).

Don't anyone try to tell me that Windows has better hardware support or is easier to maintain. I know better!!! For technical and time demands, Windows just doesn't cut it.

Quoting: "mcinsand, post: 6000"Don't anyone try to tell me that Windows has better hardware support or is easier to maintain. I know better!!! For technical and time demands, Windows just doesn't cut it.

I don't think Bumadar was saying that Windows is easier, just that the Linux experience is different.

One thing I've learned from watching people transition to Linux is that experienced computer users don't like becoming novices. IMO, Bumadar has raised a really important issue. Usually it's the patience and friendliness of individuals within F/OSS communities that helps people through that bumpy transition. If the ratios of experienced to inexperienced Linux users shifts dramatically, that'll have a noticeable impact both on the kinds of experiences that new users get, and on the kind of interactions experienced users have with the broader community.

I dunno. I thoroughly enjoyed my GNU/Linux learning time, even though you could have heard me cursing my DSL modem all the way to Canberra. I think it has more to do with preconceptions and good will than becoming a novice again.
What could be interesting, as you point out, Cheeseness, is what the shift in average experience and expectations would be - and not just for communities. Perhaps a big influx of new blood would bring interesting ideas with it too. You never know. That would be quite a trial by fire for all DEs, to begin with. :)

And as far as hardware is concerned, I've seen both OS play tricks on me. GNU/Linux with the aforementioned modem, Windows with my graphics cards. Both can give you an awful experience at times. :D

I would definitely argue that Linux has the advantage when it comes to older hardware support because of the in-kernel driver model. It also scales down better than Windows on older hardware too, but that is a completely separate issue. Linux has a disadvantage when it comes to the latest hardware for the same reason, but once something does get good support, it will tend to last practically forever assuming it get's into the kernel.

My transition to Linux came around the same time I really moved from a regular computer user to an administrator, so my learning curve was about as steep as it would have been if I had stuck with Windows. The motivation to stick with the old system was never really there for me though; the only reason I stuck with Windows for as a long as I did was because I had to for School, which later did not become an issue. Once I learned how to use a package manager I was pretty much set.

Now, my gaming was curiously well suited to moving to Linux as I had grew up mostly playing old DOS games and idtech titles which probably helped quite a bit, but it was not that hard for me and that was six or seven years ago when I moved full time.

no, I did not come out of a time machine, maybe I did not explain it to well so will try again :)

users (and I mean the common user, not you or me) have certain expectations, they buy a PC and when they turn it on it boots into the OS they know. When they buy their brand new all in one printer they plug it in, push the dvd in and 10 min later it works. When they go to a store and buy office they put the dvd in and 15 min later they see the environment they know from their work job. They download the latest GFX drivers as an exe, click a few buttons, reboot and they got the latests and greatst drivers tuned for their specific game.

I love Linux, don't even have windows at home, love tinkering with it, love using it, love answering posts on the opensSUSE forum but reality is that the user won't get linux on a new PC, they need to install it, need to switch from drive letters to sda and sdb. When they come home with the latest all in one printer they have no guaranty that it will work 100%. If they install Open Office of Libre Office they suddenly end up in an application that is not even close anymore to what they know, there is no 100% guaranty that documents made at work can be viewed exactly the same at home. The latests GFX drivers are seldom found in the local repositories of your distro and they will need to manually install them, init 3 here they come :)

This does not mean Linux is bad and Windows is great, simply means they are totally different beasts, you know that, I know that but that will not stop the common user as they will read in a PC magazine about Linux, download it, mess up their PC and will head over to their distro forum. In the long run this will benefit Linux as the only answer to this will be to make this better, more robust, easier but the influx of the general user will be quiet hard I think in the beginning.

Quoting: "Hyeron, post: 6002, member: 223"I dunno. I thoroughly enjoyed my GNU/Linux learning time, even though you could have heard me cursing my DSL modem all the way to Canberra. I think it has more to do with preconceptions and good will than becoming a novice again.

It's definitely a preconception and expectation thing. If you're not expecting to go through that transition of moving from being an experienced user to an inexperienced user, then it can be hard to have a positive experience migrating from Windows to Linux (it sounds like you were prepared for that, which is great :) ).

I wouldn't suggest that anybody who needs stuff to "just work" consider migrating to a new OS, whether it be from Windows to Linux or from MacOS to Windows or whatever, since things won't work the way they're used to, and that's a big hurdle that takes time and patience to overcome (it's not a downside of any particular OS, it's just a power that pre-learned behaviours have over us). In a lot of ways, it's really positive that these hurdles exist, because if they didn't, everything would be the same and there'd be no reason to try new things.

Quoting: "Bumadar, post: 6008, member: 93"If they install Open Office of Libre Office they suddenly end up in an application that is not even close anymore to what they know, there is no 100% guaranty that documents made at work can be viewed exactly the same at home.

Except that the whole purpose of Libre/Open Office is to be functionally identical to Microsoft Office (down to reproducing bugs as I discovered whilst writing an example macro for a LUG presentation). Sure, it's not 100%, but Libre/Open Office experience is definitely close enough to Microsoft Office that migration should be easy. The only major difference at the moment that I know of is Office's new(ish) "ribbon" replacement for the toolbar.

Quoting: "Cheeseness, post: 6001, member: 122"One thing I've learned from watching people transition to Linux is that experienced computer users don't like becoming novices.

Yes, that's the problem, they hate becoming novices after they've held their Windows expertise as a trophy. That's the kind of user that will break havoc in support forums saying that GNU/Linux is shit and broken because it doesn't work the way they expect and trying to teach others how it should work. Not everyone is willing to learn again.

I don't worry because a lot of users with low technical skills come to GNU/Linux. They'd be facing similar problems jumping to Windows 8 and no advantages, and Microsoft doesn't seem troubled by that. I'm more scared of the former users.