Well now, can interesting things stop appearing when I am asleep please!
On USC and Team Meat's Super Meat Boy
It seems Canonical have done a bit of a boo-boo here in the way of selling Super Meat Boy without Team Meat's permission and not paying them for it either.
I point you to this post on Edmund's (Team Meat) formspring where a user asks about the availability issues of Buinding of Isaac (Not directly a Team Meat game but by one of the guys) on the Ubuntu Software Centre:
And Ed's response:
So the USC was selling and not paying all without permission.
The problem I have with this is that it isn't the first time a game on Humble Bundle has had issues, Steel Storm developer had a bad experience being in a Bundle (see my interview with the developer for confirmation) and his game was for sale on Humble store without his permission as well (see here about humble store where motorsep in the comments wasn't happy).
Although guys from Humble did come here and clear it up for the developer that time around.
So could it have been part of their contract with Humble Bundle that the games go on the USC and Team Meat didn't know? Apparently Ed was aware of this earlier and did not react to it so he is not void of blame but still Canonical should not have assumed anything and just put it up.
I personally think all parties share blame in that.
Tommy from Team Meat and Linux
This is nothing to do with the above but since original article is about Team Meat I want to just highlight this as well.
The second problem I have is that Tommy (1 part of Team Meat) has been very vocal about Linux in the past with comments from them such as:
That quote is from an old podcast from RoboAwesome.
and
This is from a podcast they did that I can't seem to get a hold of (source link) so he doesn't care about Linux or open source:
Movie references then later
Should we be supporting people like that?
Let us not forget Tommy doesn't care about security either when they linked their mysql connection information to Super Meat Boy (source here) and didn't care when someone pulled them up on it to help them secure it:
Not massive issue as you couldn't delete entries but to have that kind of attitude towards a helpful customer...
Just be aware the Linux versions aren't done by either of them but by Humble as well and here may be the reason why it's not in-house porting:
Another quote from Tommy. Even though eventually they let icculus port Super Meat Boy for the Humble Bundle...
I have a real problem with people like that, I understand people can change their minds (I have reached out to him via twitter to see if he still thinks this way) but those comments are over the top. Just be aware all the "bad" comments are Tommy not Edmund.
What do you think? I just hope he regrets those comments and thinks a little more highly of Linux nowadays.
Article updated to separate the issues and for links about the Steel Storm issues.
I will try to be more neutral in future. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
On USC and Team Meat's Super Meat Boy
It seems Canonical have done a bit of a boo-boo here in the way of selling Super Meat Boy without Team Meat's permission and not paying them for it either.
I point you to this post on Edmund's (Team Meat) formspring where a user asks about the availability issues of Buinding of Isaac (Not directly a Team Meat game but by one of the guys) on the Ubuntu Software Centre:
QuoteYou said the game was rejected by the UbuntuSC guys, how comes that with the Humble Bundle 7 they claim "We're sorry that Binding of Issac [...] are not available. [...] the authors of Binding of Issac declined to make their game available and we respect"
And Ed's response:
QuoteThey are just trying to save face. they rejected isaac a while ago because its content "wasnt a good fit for the Ubuntu store" then changed their tune once they found out how popular it was and that it was a part of the HIB.
but since they are going out of their way to try and avoid the fact that they rejected isaac, ill also make public the 2nd reason why isaac isnt in their store.
Last year Ubuntu added Super Meat Boy to their store without our written permission and sold it for a full year without paying us. we didnt find this out till a few months ago and had to contact them directly about it in order to get our payment.... i dont trust or respect their actions and wont be working with them ever again.
i was trying to be cool about it but if they want to publicly state that i declined their offer to sell Isaac in their store without context to why.. then ill go public with my VERY valid reasons.
feel free to re-post this message or link this to any one who might be misinformed, im not a fan of being made to look like an asshole when my reasons are quite valid.
So the USC was selling and not paying all without permission.
The problem I have with this is that it isn't the first time a game on Humble Bundle has had issues, Steel Storm developer had a bad experience being in a Bundle (see my interview with the developer for confirmation) and his game was for sale on Humble store without his permission as well (see here about humble store where motorsep in the comments wasn't happy).
Although guys from Humble did come here and clear it up for the developer that time around.
So could it have been part of their contract with Humble Bundle that the games go on the USC and Team Meat didn't know? Apparently Ed was aware of this earlier and did not react to it so he is not void of blame but still Canonical should not have assumed anything and just put it up.
I personally think all parties share blame in that.
Tommy from Team Meat and Linux
This is nothing to do with the above but since original article is about Team Meat I want to just highlight this as well.
The second problem I have is that Tommy (1 part of Team Meat) has been very vocal about Linux in the past with comments from them such as:
QuoteWe're never doing Linux because that's dumb. I don't care what anybody says, nobody plays games on Linux.
That quote is from an old podcast from RoboAwesome.
and
This is from a podcast they did that I can't seem to get a hold of (source link) so he doesn't care about Linux or open source:
QuoteNo one gets the source. I don't care.
Movie references then later
QuoteNo, fuck that. The source belongs to me, alright. So open source, no way. Linux, Linux can fuck off for all I care.
Should we be supporting people like that?
Let us not forget Tommy doesn't care about security either when they linked their mysql connection information to Super Meat Boy (source here) and didn't care when someone pulled them up on it to help them secure it:
QuoteYou are not showing me anything I don't already know.
Not massive issue as you couldn't delete entries but to have that kind of attitude towards a helpful customer...
Just be aware the Linux versions aren't done by either of them but by Humble as well and here may be the reason why it's not in-house porting:
QuoteBut Linux... I can't wait for some Linux programmer guy to e-mail me and say "I'll port this for free", because I already have the e-mail already written that I'm going to send back to him, and basically tell him to fuck off, indefinitely.
Another quote from Tommy. Even though eventually they let icculus port Super Meat Boy for the Humble Bundle...
I have a real problem with people like that, I understand people can change their minds (I have reached out to him via twitter to see if he still thinks this way) but those comments are over the top. Just be aware all the "bad" comments are Tommy not Edmund.
What do you think? I just hope he regrets those comments and thinks a little more highly of Linux nowadays.
Article updated to separate the issues and for links about the Steel Storm issues.
I will try to be more neutral in future. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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So an article is a disgrace for calling out a Game Developer for harsh statements on Linux for them to then have their games on Linux? Sorry but I feel there was a need for this to be pointed out but you are free to disagree such is the way of the internet. People should not support or applaud someone who makes such comments about open source and Linux....to then join in and support it by having their games on it.
Calling out a Game Developer for harsh statements on Linux is not a disgrace, mixing it with valid complain from different person on the same team? Yes it is. Different article, perfectly ok, same one, not so much.
Also this was not about removing blame from Canonical at all, if you think they are 100% to blame for this you are disillusioned sorry to say but it's true. Ed said in his own words he know about it a while ago and did nothing about the game being on USC.
I didn't say that Canonical is guilty of anything, I do not belive that Canonical is 100% blame because I do not even know who is to blame. I'm waiting for statement from Canonical, ball is on their side.
"i brushed it aside a few months ago when we found out"
Yes it's really all Canonical's fault isn't it! Considering he also stated HIB are the ones that send the builds to Ubuntu but they should get no blame? Right...
We don't know what happened and you started to point fingers at everyone involved. I do not know who is to blame so I will wait with putting blame until I know. Fact that Canonical didn't pay for distribution just gives me a pause. On the other hand it might be simple omission on their part, nothing more.
It sounded to me that you are implying that everyone involved shares the blame equally. For now it is simply not true, same for blaming Canonical for everything.
It is not an "attack" on his (Tommy's) character at all, ALL I have done is quote his words word for word on what he has said, point me to where I have made something up to attack him with?
Oh as for "ad hominem" looking up the definition "Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain", Tommy's position was perfectly clear - he gave Linux the finger...or where my direct quotes from him made up?
As I said before, his opinion about Linux doesn't change anything, it's irreverent. Especially because he didn't make claims about Canonical, Ed did. Mixing it with valid claims from Ed is not right. I do not want to see Ed blamed for Tommy's words even by association.
GOL is my personal website, Editorials are my opinion so of course it will have all of my emotions in them when someone attacks Linux and then puts his games on it to reap rewards from us. Maybe I should rename "Editorials" to "My Opinion" to be clearer...
I know it and I believe that you are right to include your emotions in editorials. It makes articles interesting. I must also admit that i might have reacted a little bit too emotional. I apologize, I should have expressed my opinion in a calmer way.
or just stay away from anything other than new games and updates?
Post edited a few times to get my message across clearer.
Please continue to work on this excellent linux gaming site. I posted my opinion here in hope of fruitful discussion not to discourage you. I also contributed to GamingOnLinux.com hosting fund so keep going I'm counting on you.
Krzysztof Sobiecki
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Eh? What happened before?
Thanks for contributing :), now you have explained I agree the mixing together wasn't good. Next time 1 thing per editorial heh.
Thanks for contributing :), now you have explained I agree the mixing together wasn't good. Next time 1 thing per editorial heh.
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Eh? What happened before?
I don't want to point fingers, but let's just say it involved a certain game developer, multiple times.
I understand your outburst here, when I first read about this issue and some of the comments I came quite close to doing the same thing (but that was before you posted this article still).
Anyway, none of this is important.
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Cheeseness Dec 24, 2012
I held off on posting here initially as there wasn't really enough information available to have any idea what went down.
I'm not certain that it's been highlighted enough that the anti-Linux quotes from Tommy are from some time ago and may not represent his current attitudes.
It's been great to see a lot of constructive criticism being given and received. Whilst I'll agree that the article itself is maybe isn't the best that's graced GOL, the discussion has made me feel proud to be a part of the community.
One thing that can help with editorials like this is to try to get a direct statement from the people that are being written about - not only can this help give them an opportunity to clarify anything that might be uncertain, and move discourse forward, but it'll also mean other sites will end up quoting your sites when doing their own news :)
I'm not certain that it's been highlighted enough that the anti-Linux quotes from Tommy are from some time ago and may not represent his current attitudes.
It's been great to see a lot of constructive criticism being given and received. Whilst I'll agree that the article itself is maybe isn't the best that's graced GOL, the discussion has made me feel proud to be a part of the community.
One thing that can help with editorials like this is to try to get a direct statement from the people that are being written about - not only can this help give them an opportunity to clarify anything that might be uncertain, and move discourse forward, but it'll also mean other sites will end up quoting your sites when doing their own news :)
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I'm not certain that it's been highlighted enough that the anti-Linux quotes from Tommy are from some time ago and may not represent his current attitudes.
Considering Team Meat still refuses to do Linux ports except as part of a HiB and doesn't support those ports afterwards... I doubt his attitude has changed much.
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Cheeseness Dec 24, 2012
Considering Team Meat still refuses to do Linux ports except as part of a HiB and doesn't support those ports afterwards... I doubt his attitude has changed much.
Perhaps not. There was yesterday's confirmation that SMB would be published on Steam for Linux, though (and I imagine that Steam have update/support requirements that are at least as stringent as Desura's).
I came across this this morning: http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/406271310277148233
I wonder what experience he's basing that opinion on. So far as I'm aware he's never been involved in a non-Humble Linux port (unless you count Gish, which was done released in a very different climate, not only for Linux games, but for indie games in general).
Since BoI is sitting in a Flash wrapper, I can't imagine it took any significant amount of effort to get it packaged for Linux.
Of course, the countering opinion from people like Hemisphere, Frictional, Wolfire, Frozenbyte, and many other indie devs who actually have done non-Humble Linux ports, is that it is worthwhile.
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On the subject of Team Meat, I think the best thing to do is ignore them like any other troll, at least this Tommy fellow as Edmund McMillan could just be painted as mistaken in this instance.
Still, it is people like this that can give independent gaming a bad name: stuck up and full of ego. It does gall me the credit that Super Meat Boy gets compared to many other more creative and constructive Indie titles by other developers, including by the Humble Bundle guys. And note that is a personal opinion and not a defence for Canonical or any other such statement. I am hardly their best friend either...
Still, it is people like this that can give independent gaming a bad name: stuck up and full of ego. It does gall me the credit that Super Meat Boy gets compared to many other more creative and constructive Indie titles by other developers, including by the Humble Bundle guys. And note that is a personal opinion and not a defence for Canonical or any other such statement. I am hardly their best friend either...
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Hamish, I was thinking the same. I'll ignore him until he has something interesting to say. Why are we giving him so much publicity? He isn't worth it.
Canonical and Humble Bundle doing things in a ru$h, that's not news either...
Editted, I didn't want to sound mean, both Canonical and Humble Bundle do good things.
Canonical and Humble Bundle doing things in a ru$h, that's not news either...
Editted, I didn't want to sound mean, both Canonical and Humble Bundle do good things.
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Perhaps not. There was yesterday's confirmation that SMB would be published on Steam for Linux, though (and I imagine that Steam have update/support requirements that are at least as stringent as Desura's).
Where is the confirmation for Super Meat Boy on Steam / Linux? I would love to continue unlock steam achievement on my favorite platform.
I just found that:
[URL='http://www.formspring.me/lucasgomes20618']lucasgomes20618 > [/URL]Will Binding of Isaac enter Steam Linux? If so, can you give us a time frame?http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/405819840046067408
[URL='http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM']EdmundM[/URL] [URL='http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/405819840046067408']- 19 Dec >[/URL] ill submit the HIB build after the holidays
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Amish, I was thinking the same. I'll ignore him until he has something interesting to say. Why are we giving him so much publicity?
Yay, I am Amish again!
Sorry, not trying to be a dick, but my name gets mangled so much I have to take some perverse pleasure in pointing it out. ;)
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Yay, I am Amish again!
Sorry, not trying to be a dick, but my name gets mangled so much I have to take some perverse pleasure in pointing it out. ;)
So, Hamaz, I do think you're raising a good point. It'd probably be best to just put such devs to the side and ignore them until they start behaving nice.
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I'll do everything in my power to ensure that it does, Amir.
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As I said before, his opinion about Linux doesn't change anything, it's irreverent.
It is relevant i do care about it.
Thanks to admin for making this editorial, very interesting read!
Please continue in posts like this and don't ever again be discouraged by any comment.
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Cheeseness Dec 25, 2012
Where is the confirmation for Super Meat Boy on Steam / Linux? I would love to continue unlock steam achievement on my favorite platform.
I just found that:
http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/405819840046067408
I spotted this tweet when it went out: https://twitter.com/EdmundMcMillenn/status/282640582168440833
It is relevant i do care about it.
The point that was being made was that Tommy's/Team Meat's opinions of Linux from 2009 aren't relevant to and are a separate issue from this situation with BoI and USC. They are two different topics and could perhaps exist better as separate articles.
Sorry, not trying to be a dick, but my name gets mangled so much I have to take some perverse pleasure in pointing it out. ;)
Oh, Hamfish. You crack me up.
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Someone was asking why Ed thinks it's not worth to port His games to Linux:
http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/407802266146330190
It made me a little sad but there is still a hope:
For now my only concern is that some people might hear about this mess and associate not paying for games with Linux. I hope I'm wrong.
There is also urgent need for comment from Canonical.
http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/407802266146330190
It made me a little sad but there is still a hope:
That said, i will be submitting Isaac to Steam for Linux, mostly to just see for myself how sales actually are.. though i STRONGLY believe i wont be surprised by the sales."
For now my only concern is that some people might hear about this mess and associate not paying for games with Linux. I hope I'm wrong.
There is also urgent need for comment from Canonical.
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That's beyond ridiculous. Submit a game that's been in not just one but TWO bundles WITH steam keys and wait for the sale numbers?
(ditto with USC)
Those guys are morons. Sorry for being blunt, but at this point there's NO other word.
(ditto with USC)
Those guys are morons. Sorry for being blunt, but at this point there's NO other word.
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That's beyond ridiculous. Submit a game that's been in not just one but TWO bundles WITH steam keys and wait for the sale numbers?
(ditto with USC)
Those guys are morons. Sorry for being blunt, but at this point there's NO other word.
Make a comment on formspring it will get more visibility and will refute his point. Maybe comparing sales of windows and mac versions in the timeframe after linux release might be more accurate.
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Make a comment on formspring it will get more visibility and will refute his point. Maybe comparing sales of windows and mac versions in the timeframe after linux release might be more accurate.
Not even close. Our market share IS smaller. So yeah, ANY game will get less sales on GNU/Linux.
I don't think it useful to post in on formspring without solid numbers though. And I don't have access to the 25000 profiles of GNU/Linux gamers on Steam. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if >50% of them had redeemed HB keys with BoI. And nobody HAS to like a game enough to buy it. Especially when we're talking about the borked port of a scatological pseudo-roguelike Flash game...
If he were to make such an experiment on a NEW game, then he could very well have a point. I don't find him relevant enough to push the issue any further. Y'know, "don't feed the trolls" and stuff. ;p
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