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So doing it's rounds right now is news about John Carmack of id software chiming on on Wine gaming, here are his thoughts and my thoughts.
So let's start by showing you what he said:
This tweet has sparked posts over Reddit and other popular Linux related websites so it's time for my views.
I am as usual torn on the subject because I think Wine is important but bad at the same time. I will keep it short and just bear in mind as usual these are just my personal views and personal experiences using wine.
Good Points:
So there will always be developers who have been brought up on Windows and know nothing of the world outside of it, there will always be lazy developers who just don't care about other platforms and then there are old games which just will never get ported.
Those are for me the main places that Wine is great to have around so rather than having no chance we have a chance at running these games on our favourite platform.
I do personally use Wine so this really is from experience, I currently play Space Colony HD in Wine and it runs great.
Bad Points:
Wine creates a hidden file-system for where everything in Wine is installed which emulates the Windows file system - this can make an awful mess - but this is an issue for more advanced Linux users, most average users just won't care.
If there is a regression in a Wine update it can affect a huge amount of games. Imagine if the Wine developers look to fix a bug in a very popular game which then breaks it for a bunch of older titles - it becomes a pain as you need to check for reported regressions before upgrading - not everyone has the time to manually check if all their games installed via Wine will still work.
The above has personally happened to me, I’ve done an update without thinking about it which breaks every OpenGL game I’ve installed via Wine and no workaround has worked and so I either had to wait for the next version of Wine or try to downgrade (which isn't easy and can be time consuming).
Graphics Drivers - We all know how bad certain drivers are under Linux, I have personally had an awful experience using Wine with official AMD drivers which gives bad performance as well as bad graphical glitches - the kind of things a native port could work around without having to wait for people to update Wine installs (thankfully I am on Nvidia now).
To further the last post in the graphics drivers bit, imagine if your a developer and your game flat out doesn't work in Wine - what then? Do you spend more of your time to then go through the Wine code-base to fix it or report all your bugs hoping a Wine developer looks at them? This can create a lengthy delay for a "Linux version" of your game, in quotes because it won't be a Linux version at all it will be telling your customers to "just run it in wine".
Also if a developer does test their game in Wine and it doesn't work at all - that then makes Linux look bad again doesn't it since they have something to blame rather than themselves?
If you made a native port you know your own code, you can look to fix platform specific issues. You won't have to worry about Wine updates breaking your game either and you will get more respect from Linux users.
If you keep multi-platform in mind from the start it would make it easier for you to bring your games to other platforms in the future too not just Linux, keeping to Windows only libraries does not.
Wine in my eyes is not a replacement for a native port.
What are your views?
Update:
TTimo who used to work for id and did the Linux ports has chimed in as well giving his thoughts:
So let's start by showing you what he said:
QuoteImproving Wine for Linux gaming seems like a better plan than lobbying individual game developers for native ports. Why the hate?
This tweet has sparked posts over Reddit and other popular Linux related websites so it's time for my views.
I am as usual torn on the subject because I think Wine is important but bad at the same time. I will keep it short and just bear in mind as usual these are just my personal views and personal experiences using wine.
Good Points:
So there will always be developers who have been brought up on Windows and know nothing of the world outside of it, there will always be lazy developers who just don't care about other platforms and then there are old games which just will never get ported.
Those are for me the main places that Wine is great to have around so rather than having no chance we have a chance at running these games on our favourite platform.
I do personally use Wine so this really is from experience, I currently play Space Colony HD in Wine and it runs great.
Bad Points:
Wine creates a hidden file-system for where everything in Wine is installed which emulates the Windows file system - this can make an awful mess - but this is an issue for more advanced Linux users, most average users just won't care.
If there is a regression in a Wine update it can affect a huge amount of games. Imagine if the Wine developers look to fix a bug in a very popular game which then breaks it for a bunch of older titles - it becomes a pain as you need to check for reported regressions before upgrading - not everyone has the time to manually check if all their games installed via Wine will still work.
The above has personally happened to me, I’ve done an update without thinking about it which breaks every OpenGL game I’ve installed via Wine and no workaround has worked and so I either had to wait for the next version of Wine or try to downgrade (which isn't easy and can be time consuming).
Graphics Drivers - We all know how bad certain drivers are under Linux, I have personally had an awful experience using Wine with official AMD drivers which gives bad performance as well as bad graphical glitches - the kind of things a native port could work around without having to wait for people to update Wine installs (thankfully I am on Nvidia now).
To further the last post in the graphics drivers bit, imagine if your a developer and your game flat out doesn't work in Wine - what then? Do you spend more of your time to then go through the Wine code-base to fix it or report all your bugs hoping a Wine developer looks at them? This can create a lengthy delay for a "Linux version" of your game, in quotes because it won't be a Linux version at all it will be telling your customers to "just run it in wine".
Also if a developer does test their game in Wine and it doesn't work at all - that then makes Linux look bad again doesn't it since they have something to blame rather than themselves?
If you made a native port you know your own code, you can look to fix platform specific issues. You won't have to worry about Wine updates breaking your game either and you will get more respect from Linux users.
If you keep multi-platform in mind from the start it would make it easier for you to bring your games to other platforms in the future too not just Linux, keeping to Windows only libraries does not.
Wine in my eyes is not a replacement for a native port.
What are your views?
Update:
TTimo who used to work for id and did the Linux ports has chimed in as well giving his thoughts:
QuoteI wasn't able to allocate time to work on native Linux or OSX builds for idTech5 stuff in the last few years I spent there (basically after idTech4 Doom3/Quake4/ETQW). There were plenty of reasons that led to me leaving, but me staying wouldn't have changed much in that regard.Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
They simply lost interest towards the PC in general during the idTech5 cycle, and they don't have anyone there with Linux chops anymore. But Valve seems to be doing great at bringing AAA Linux stuff to the market now, and there's plenty of indies doing high quality stuff. So here's to the new generation :)
A side rant about WINE:
I appreciate the enormous amount of solid engineering that has gone into making WINE what it is today. I use it quite a lot. Running non-gaming software, and running EvE Online for internet spaceships awesomeness.
Keeping a working wine setup on an amd64 Debian sid system is awful though. I've switched to a new install a week ago, and I still don't have EvE working again. And I try to think that I don't totally suck at configuring that stuff.
I don't think running games on WINE is going to get much easier .. it's pretty much as good as it's going to be. It's such a complex piece of engineering that it'll always remain a rather frustrating barrier. So .. native is where it's at.
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It's surprising seeing someone so technical as Carmack saying that, although maybe not that surprising since he's been praising things like Direct3D. He sometimes seems more commercially focused than technically.
Wine is a wrong idea for anything serious simply because is a reverse-engineering project. It will always lag behind the real product and will fail to be a perfect replacement. It does very weird things to try to work around some serious challenges with no optimal solution.
In the past, Carmack gained a reputation as someone pushing the envelope for technical excelence, now this comment makes him look bad. Problems with AMD drivers? Did he stop developing Quake2 or Quake3 because of drivers problems or did he stop using DirectX when it didn't work? No, he pushed for these to work better.
What about Rage for the iPhone? It sounds like a joke, but he did it.
He used to say that making cross-platform programming helped find issues in the code and fix them, so it made better code. Maybe he's found better ways to do that but I think going multi-platform is working for many indie developers, it's maybe easier than ever, it's profitable, it helps your sales in a world no longer dominated by Windows and with several Linux based systems emerging. Doesn't he see that?
For me it's just that he doesn't need it, he already earns lots money supporting the most popular platforms and some others per request. He goes where the big money is. Good for him but I don't see the need for excuses.
I don't play Wine games, I used it for some old games but now I prefer to play native games and support developers that care about their product quality and user satisfaction.
Limbo started with problems but they finally fixed it. It plays really well for me and I didn't mind doing an exception since I had already bought it, but I wonder if they wouldn't have been better doing a native port. Maybe it wouldn't have been much more work and wouldn't have looked like a hack.
Wine is a wrong idea for anything serious simply because is a reverse-engineering project. It will always lag behind the real product and will fail to be a perfect replacement. It does very weird things to try to work around some serious challenges with no optimal solution.
In the past, Carmack gained a reputation as someone pushing the envelope for technical excelence, now this comment makes him look bad. Problems with AMD drivers? Did he stop developing Quake2 or Quake3 because of drivers problems or did he stop using DirectX when it didn't work? No, he pushed for these to work better.
What about Rage for the iPhone? It sounds like a joke, but he did it.
He used to say that making cross-platform programming helped find issues in the code and fix them, so it made better code. Maybe he's found better ways to do that but I think going multi-platform is working for many indie developers, it's maybe easier than ever, it's profitable, it helps your sales in a world no longer dominated by Windows and with several Linux based systems emerging. Doesn't he see that?
For me it's just that he doesn't need it, he already earns lots money supporting the most popular platforms and some others per request. He goes where the big money is. Good for him but I don't see the need for excuses.
I don't play Wine games, I used it for some old games but now I prefer to play native games and support developers that care about their product quality and user satisfaction.
Limbo started with problems but they finally fixed it. It plays really well for me and I didn't mind doing an exception since I had already bought it, but I wonder if they wouldn't have been better doing a native port. Maybe it wouldn't have been much more work and wouldn't have looked like a hack.
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The argument against this guy is simple: using wine discourages game developers from making real Linux ports. Real Linux ports mean better support. id has done nothing but spew garbage from their mouths over the past year about Linux, so I wish they would shut up already.
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I think people need to tone down some of the hate that is being thrown about though. He is not being as unreasonable as some people are making out. Read his reddit post:
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto
That is not to say that I agree with his WINE comments, but I think some of the bile that is making it's rounds around the net is uncalled for. Especially since people need to take into account this comment here:
And he is actually exactly right about the fact that the source code releases are more important - I would rather have access to a games source code be made available than a single port to a single platform any day. Especially since in doing so it decouples the games from Steamworks or any other potential forms of DRM. I am still waiting for the day I can play Rage natively on my machine without the Steamworks requirement, like what is possible with Doom3: BFG already. This idea I support fully
I do not support the idea of WINE as a primarily means for gaming however. I do use it and recognize it's value, but I am also well aware it's shortfalls. The sound is not working for me at the moment, and for the longest time doing anything with it (like launching FirstClass so I could send off my school assignments) would bork my sound server (it has now thankfully settled down somewhat and simply does not work without borking anything else). And there are so many other technical and practical reasons why his proposal is a bad idea, from increased overheard, worse support, and of course the message it sends out.
TTimo said it well. :)
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto
That is not to say that I agree with his WINE comments, but I think some of the bile that is making it's rounds around the net is uncalled for. Especially since people need to take into account this comment here:
QuoteHowever, I don’t think that a good business case can be made for officially supporting Linux for mainstream games today, and Zenimax doesn’t have any policy of “unofficial binaries” like Id used to have. I have argued for their value (mostly in the context of experimental Windows features, but Linux would also benefit), but my forceful internal pushes have been for the continuation of Id Software’s open source code releases, which I feel have broader benefits than unsupported Linux binaries.
And he is actually exactly right about the fact that the source code releases are more important - I would rather have access to a games source code be made available than a single port to a single platform any day. Especially since in doing so it decouples the games from Steamworks or any other potential forms of DRM. I am still waiting for the day I can play Rage natively on my machine without the Steamworks requirement, like what is possible with Doom3: BFG already. This idea I support fully
I do not support the idea of WINE as a primarily means for gaming however. I do use it and recognize it's value, but I am also well aware it's shortfalls. The sound is not working for me at the moment, and for the longest time doing anything with it (like launching FirstClass so I could send off my school assignments) would bork my sound server (it has now thankfully settled down somewhat and simply does not work without borking anything else). And there are so many other technical and practical reasons why his proposal is a bad idea, from increased overheard, worse support, and of course the message it sends out.
TTimo said it well. :)
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This comment from Carmack just proves he's thinking like a businessman, the big numbers is all that matters and we haven't still proved we can reach them:
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto
He focuses on GNU/Linux alone, avoiding the much broader picture of multi-platform development for a variety of Linux based systems. Users and developers would highly benefit from a standard multi-platform library layer, that layer can't be Wine and he doesn't really seem to be interested in such thing at all.
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/17x0sh/john_carmack_asks_why_wine_isnt_good_enough/c89sfto
He focuses on GNU/Linux alone, avoiding the much broader picture of multi-platform development for a variety of Linux based systems. Users and developers would highly benefit from a standard multi-platform library layer, that layer can't be Wine and he doesn't really seem to be interested in such thing at all.
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Carmack is discussing things with businessmen though, which part of the problem. See the quote I highlighted. Taken in those terms I can understand why he has decided upon the direction he has taken, even if it makes me dislike the Zenimax acquisition even more. I can also understand even more why TTimo jumped ship.
Still, as a side note, has anyone else here read David Kushner's excellent book Masters of Doom? I think that should be required reading for anyone before they attempt to make a character assassination of either Carmack or Romero.
Still, as a side note, has anyone else here read David Kushner's excellent book Masters of Doom? I think that should be required reading for anyone before they attempt to make a character assassination of either Carmack or Romero.
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Quoting: HamishCarmack is discussing things with businessmen though, which part of the problem. See the quote I highlighted. Taken in those terms I can understand why he has decided upon the direction he has taken, even if it makes me dislike the Zenimax acquisition even more. I can also understand even more why TTimo jumped ship.
Still, as a side note, has anyone else here read David Kushner's excellent book Masters of Doom? I think that should be required reading for anyone before they attempt to make a character assassination of either Carmack or Romero.
If I had to choose official GNU/Linux releases or open source code releases I'd choose always the later. I'll only play Rage when it's released that way most probably. I understand that position and I think that nothing negative would be said about him if he didn't publish statements that work like trolling. It's his trolling that's getting him angry reactions. I don't think Zenimax can be made accountable for that.
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To be fair, it was not so much trolling as asking a question. There is a difference. I would not head the Twitter comment that much as everything on Twitter is borderline troll by it's very nature, but that was definitely not the way his thoughts were presented on reddit.
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Quoting: HamishTo be fair, it was not so much trolling as asking a question. There is a difference. I would not head the Twitter comment that much as everything on Twitter is borderline troll by it's very nature, but that was definitely not the way it was presented on reddit.
The Carmack message:
"Improving Wine for Linux gaming seems like a better plan than lobbying individual game developers for native ports. Why the hate?"
I don't know what triggered this message. Who's lobbying? Which hate? I understand this can generate negative reactions.
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Now I see what may have happened.
Carmack posted this back in April 2012:
"I heard it ran fine under Wine. No plans for a native linux client."
It's been recently taken to reddit and a discussion started. And so it seems Carmack replied on Twitter but I still don't get his point about lobbying and hate. Having an oppinion contrary to his is lobbying or hating?
I would discourage anyone buying games to play on Wine, you have no support so you shouldn't give them your money. The game might not play or stop playing through and you don't know that before you try it. Doesn't Carmack know this or is he happy selling games without support? An awful attitude.
Carmack posted this back in April 2012:
"I heard it ran fine under Wine. No plans for a native linux client."
It's been recently taken to reddit and a discussion started. And so it seems Carmack replied on Twitter but I still don't get his point about lobbying and hate. Having an oppinion contrary to his is lobbying or hating?
I would discourage anyone buying games to play on Wine, you have no support so you shouldn't give them your money. The game might not play or stop playing through and you don't know that before you try it. Doesn't Carmack know this or is he happy selling games without support? An awful attitude.
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Honestly, I posted one simple question towards him: If WINE was on a console, would they use it or still go native. Think about it
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