The Humble Weekly Sale featuring Tripwire

Quoting: HamishThe other problem for me is that Linux used to be a bastion for progressive DRM free gaming (which actually used to be the norm, but sadly that is no longer the case, mostly due to people like you who are willing to accept it) 

Yeah not only do I accept it I am thrilled, I have been waiting 7 years to play games again. Im not switching to windows to play games on my main desktop. I completely stopped playing games for years now because the opensource games that were available were for the most part worse than the shareware games I used to play in dos (which I ended up playing in dosbox on linux). I find it funny that all these GNU lovers are always talking about freedom but they dont want to give people the freedom to choose DRM. My option to use steam and linux gives me all the freedom to play non DRM games and to play DRM titles as well. Your view is that I shouldnt have the option to choose my OS and a DRM platform. Humble bundle is a business that donates to charity, thats the humble part and that is what they still do, I think most people are assuming its because it was non DRM. I bet the only reason they didnt have DRM was because that is more work and more support. Notice how many of the DRM free developers are on steam and many of the games on steam are windows only (super meat boy for one). SUPRISE, they never cared from the begining. If anything we can thank them for paving the way for steam on linux. Now I have the freedom to use the worlds best operating system on a computer that you can build yourself that can run any opensource and DRM free software and you can use the easiest DRM platform to get games that you can choose to not purchase if you dont want to. I am not putting anyone down for choosing to not use steam but you are complaining that a company isnt doing things the way you want. So what freedom do you stand for? The freedom to make everyone choose what you want or the freedom to choose what they prefer?

That is quite a rant you got there, but it is hardly original. I have heard it all before. It is just another reactionary response to any kind of criticism.

This notion that I, by my stating of problems that are related to Steam, am somehow threatening your freedom to use Steam is depressingly prevalent. It is almost as if you believe my words are going to suddenly infect your computer and delete all of your DRMed titles out of existence on the wish of my merest whim. Words can never take your freedom away, thoughts can never either - actions can. So unless you see me writing such a piece of malware to take out your Steam accounts, I suggest that you take a step back and realize that there is a difference between criticism and an infringement of your rights. The fact that you try and blur the lines between the two is actually somewhat dangerous.

And again, I am not tackling the subject of free or open source games here. So you can banter on all you like about how SuperTuxKart ruined your life but that will never be pertinent to the argument.

Addressing your Humble Bundle comments, again, you can not simply wash away the fact they stood for more by blindly asserting they never did. Granted, you are indeed correct in saying that a lot of the developers involved honestly could not give a damn about it (which is part of the reasons a lot of the ports were so half-hearted), but the Humble Bundle guys themselves did openly and plainly assert that they were doing this for a wider cause, and indeed did seek support under those grounds. It was about more than just the charity, and it really does get on my nerves when people use charity as a blind for other less defensible actions, like how charity is often used to justify cutting valuable social programs and services (the Niall Ferguson argument, ugh...) or other ad nauseum.

As for what I stand for, I stand for what I have said. I wish to support DRM free gaming, and yes, I am going to do that by pointing out the flaws present in popular DRM systems. If that really bothers you, if that really gets to you, than you really need to examine your own motives, not mine. I stand for DRM free gaming just as much as I stand for native Linux gaming - and you can not silence me for that. After all, standing up for what some consider to be the minority opinion is what you yourself have been doing all of these years.

When you criticized Windows, were you taking people's "freedoms" away? Were you merely "complaining that a company isn't doing things the way you want"? If you have ever promoted an opinion that was counter to someone's else's, were you taking away that person's freedom to express it? No? Then you should not be taking such a huge exception to mine. Unless something I have said has actually really gotten to you and you just don't want to admit it.

(And my apologies to everyone if this sounds a little too combative, but I am really sick of these weak and repetitive arguments. I really have to pity RMS, I really do...)

Quoting: HamishThat is quite a rant you got there, but it is hardly original. I have heard it all before. It is just another reactionary response to any kind of criticism.

This notion that I, by my stating of problems that are related to Steam, am somehow threatening your freedom to use Steam is depressingly prevalent. It is almost as if you believe my words are going to suddenly infect your computer and delete all of your DRMed titles out of existence on the wish of my merest whim. Words can never take your freedom away, thoughts can never either - actions can. So unless you see me writing such a piece of malware to take out your Steam accounts, I suggest that you take a step back and realize that there is a difference between criticism and an infringement of your rights. The fact that you try and blur the lines between the two is actually somewhat dangerous.

And again, I am not tackling the subject of free or open source games here. So you can banter on all you like about how SuperTuxKart ruined your life but that will never be pertinent to the argument.

Addressing your Humble Bundle comments, again, you can not simply wash away the fact they stood for more by blindly asserting they never did. Granted, you are indeed correct in saying that a lot of the developers involved honestly could not give a damn about it (which is part of the reasons a lot of the ports were so half-hearted), but the Humble Bundle guys themselves did openly and plainly assert that they were doing this for a wider cause, and indeed did seek support under those grounds. It was about more than just the charity, and it really does get on my nerves when people use charity as a blind for other less defensible actions, like how charity is often used to justify cutting valuable social programs and services (the Niall Ferguson argument, ugh...) or other ad nauseum.

As for what I stand for, I stand for what I have said. I wish to support DRM free gaming, and yes, I am going to do that by pointing out the flaws present in popular DRM systems. If that really bothers you, if that really gets to you, than you really need to examine your own motives, not mine. I stand for DRM free gaming just as much as I stand for native Linux gaming - and you can not silence me for that. After all, standing up for what some consider to be the minority opinion is what you yourself have been doing all of these years.

When you criticized Windows, were you taking people's "freedoms" away? Were you merely "complaining that a company isn't doing things the way you want"? If you have ever promoted an opinion that was counter to someone's else's, were you taking away that person's freedom to express it? No? Then you should not be taking such a huge exception to mine. Unless something I have said has actually really gotten to you and you just don't want to admit it.

(And my apologies to everyone if this sounds a little too combative, but I am really sick of these weak and repetitive arguments. I really have to pity RMS, I really do...)

When things are written instead of spoken they can be taken more defensively than they really are. I am not trying to argue with you. In all honestly I dont like DRM and I wish that all games were DRM free and yes I know you arent talking about open-source. And I do in fact like Super Tux and have spent many hours playing frozen bubble but getting to play some of my favorite games in linux outweighs DRM problems in my opinion and I am afraid that devs see the linux community as purists and will not make more games on this platform because of peoples concerns like yours. So yes I do partly believe that your comments will limit my choices of games in linux. I am also hoping that if DRM is successful and steam is profitable in linux that other developers of software such as Adobe will take the platform seriously so that I never have to use any other OS. Sorry if its a reactionary response but so is yours and your fears about anything on linux including DRM. In an ideal world your view would be best but I dont think companies like it. Also my only criticism of windows is that its really boring to use, at least to me and that I just prefer a *nix environment. Yes I do believe that saying no DRM software in linux is limiting my freedom, people do listen to your comments. To be honest I never thought humble bundle stood for more than being a store for indie games to get noticed. I suppose your comments about them changing for the worse are accurate, I mean the THQ bundle was the worst of the worse and I was a little upset but I am having so much fun using steam in linux, its something ive wanted for so long, it makes me very happy and I felt like you were trying to rain on my parade. BTW RMS used to be a hero of mine and he still is to a degree but the purist philosophy is just not working as far as I can tell. But who knows I could be wrong.

oh and I do find it a bit funny that RMS' choice of freedom has limited his freedom of choice because according to his bio, he can only use one type of computer and its not a very good one at that: "I am using a Lemote Yeelong, a netbook with a Loongson chip and a 9-inch display. This is my only computer, and I use it all the time. I chose it because I can run it with 100% free software even at the BIOS level."
Although I suppose with the coreboot project he should have more options available to him now.

Quoting: Philip550cYes I do believe that saying no DRM software in linux is limiting my freedom, people do listen to your comments.

On the other hand, flocks of Linux users happily embracing Steam's DRM and thus forcing indie developers to get on that platform (often neglecting other ways of digital distribution) are totally harmless to us DRM-free lovers...

I guess Hamish would be as happy as I'd be if every Linux game were released both with DRM and DRM-free, effectively granting everyone their freedom to choose. But unfortunately this is not the case and the future doesn't bode well in that respect. :(

I am sorry, but I am not going to moderate my beliefs or views simply because "companies [don't] like it". Nor am I going to be arrogant enough to assume that people are going to (or even should) take my comments as representing the whole Linux community, or even merely GamingOnLinux for that matter (and I would like to take a moment to thank Liam for allowing me to voice my views as loudly and boisterously as I am, even though I sure as hell know he does not fully agree or follow them). If you are worried about what I am saying, then I am sorry but that is your problem, not mine. My concern is to stay true to myself, my own values, and my own conscience, and by doing that I am not violating or using anyone's freedoms but my own.

And I would hardly say I was "raining on your parade" - I do not go to every Steam related article just to blast it, and only bring up my concerns with it when it is pertinent to the discussion. If I did otherwise, then I would be a troll. But I don't. I do moderate my opinions and fears enough that I do manage to keep a good enough code of behaviour (enough that I do not violate forum rules certainly) but that is about as far as I am willing to go. I am not going to moderate my views because someone may get a bad impression of me. If they take me, one man, to represent the whole Linux community then again, that is their problem, not mine. And Valve is not something I think that is really going to care about what I post. So I do not think you even have to worry.

And about me also being reactionary, certainly I am to an extent. But I like to think I take a bit more time to frame my arguments than that to at least allow them to be somewhat original. Certainly passion rules much of my words, but I do like to think I try and guard myself from them to some extent. What bothers me the most though is that I keep getting nailed to causes which used to be more of the norm but are now a complete struggle to keep going (DRM free gaming, family farming, etc...). I would much rather be a pure activist any day - at least then you are not fighting the decay of something you care about. And that is what I pity about RMS the most - he has been doing that for thirty years.

Quoting: muntdefemsOn the other hand, flocks of Linux users happily embracing Steam's DRM and thus forcing indie developers to get on that platform (often neglecting other ways of digital distribution) are totally harmless to us DRM-free lovers...

I guess Hamish would be as happy as I'd be if every Linux game were released both with DRM and DRM-free, effectively granting everyone their freedom to choose. But unfortunately this is not the case and the future doesn't bode well in that respect. :(

Yes, and that is another reason I love RWS - most of the technical updates to their Steam games are actually going to moved back into the Desura versions at some point, barring things that are specifically tied to Steamworks of course. Awesome people all round. :)

Quoting: Hamishand I would like to take a moment to thank Liam for allowing me to voice my views as loudly and boisterously as I am, even though I sure as hell know he does not fully agree or follow them

Everyone is welcome to voice their opinions as loudly as they like. The only time I object is if people attack eachother then I expect to be messaged about it so I can deal with it. I like to run a relaxed rules area.

Until then carry on folks!

Quoting: HamishI am sorry, but I am not going to moderate my beliefs or views simply because "companies [don't] like it". Nor am I going to be arrogant enough to assume that people are going to (or even should) take my comments as representing the whole Linux community, or even merely GamingOnLinux for that matter (and I would like to take a moment to thank Liam for allowing me to voice my views as loudly and boisterously as I am, even though I sure as hell know he does not fully agree or follow them). If you are worried about what I am saying, then I am sorry but that is your problem, not mine. My concern is to stay true to myself, my own values, and my own conscience, and by doing that I am not violating or using anyone's freedoms but my own.

And I would hardly say I was "raining on your parade" - I do not go to every Steam related article just to blast it, and only bring up my concerns with it when it is pertinent to the discussion. If I did otherwise, then I would be a troll. But I don't. I do moderate my opinions and fears enough that I do manage to keep a good enough code of behaviour (enough that I do not violate forum rules certainly) but that is about as far as I am willing to go. I am not going to moderate my views because someone may get a bad impression of me. If they take me, one man, to represent the whole Linux community then again, that is their problem, not mine. And Valve is not something I think that is really going to care about what I post. So I do not think you even have to worry.

And about me also being reactionary, certainly I am to an extent. But I like to think I take a bit more time to frame my arguments than that to at least allow them to be somewhat original. Certainly passion rules much of my words, but I do like to think I try and guard myself from them to some extent. What bothers me the most though is that I keep getting nailed to causes which used to be more of the norm but are now a complete struggle to keep going (DRM free gaming, family farming, etc...). I would much rather be a pure activist any day - at least then you are not fighting the decay of something you care about. And that is what I pity about RMS the most - he has been doing that for thirty years.

Keep on doing it, I dont want to shut you up. I was just hoping that you can see that some of us have given up on the DRM free hope and have instead enjoyed playing the DRM games, I just dont see it as a big deal because at the end of the day its just games. I do run desura as well as steam and I have all of the HiB as well. I love reading the things you write about, Im not trying to step on your beliefs and I would probably enjoy you as neighbor or something, this wasnt meant to be a personal attack. I have seen developers on forums say that linux users are only interested in freedom and nothing else, so I am worried that I will never get the desktop OS that I dream about. I see that is your concern as well, just a different dream. Sorry to cause such an argument but as far as originality your stance is the main stance in the linux world, so I dont see how its original?. Also I do family farming as well.

Quoting: muntdefems

Quoting: Philip550cYes I do believe that saying no DRM software in linux is limiting my freedom, people do listen to your comments.

On the other hand, flocks of Linux users happily embracing Steam's DRM and thus forcing indie developers to get on that platform (often neglecting other ways of digital distribution) are totally harmless to us DRM-free lovers...

I guess Hamish would be as happy as I'd be if every Linux game were released both with DRM and DRM-free, effectively granting everyone their freedom to choose. But unfortunately this is not the case and the future doesn't bode well in that respect. :(

You are correct, I had not thought of that. This could happen as well.