Well folks a lot of you saw this one coming, GOG.com have officially responded to us to state that Linux support just isn't happening anytime soon. Quite sad news really, was hopefull on this one since they are such a big name and a pretty decent store too.
Here's the message I got from Trevor Longino, their Head of PR and Marketing, with thanks to Piotr Szczesniak who also works in the PR dept.
So folks no matter the hints, you have it direct from their PR head.
This line is the bit that gets me:
It has often bugged me just how many distributions there are, but it's more of a problem with their own policies of refunding if they cannot get it to work for you which is a good policy, but on Linux it is fair enough that it could be trouble for them when someone tries to install x game on "Look Ma I Built A Distro v4" that has some crazy new configuration somewhere.
I will just leave this here:
UPDATE #1, I asked if it was basically the amount of distro's and how often they are updated that's really the issue:
So a long winded answer to basically say "Yes Linux is updated too often for us".
Strikes me as odd since even Windows which was once known for being exceptionally slow to make major OS updates has committed itself to having a much more regular release schedule now, along with Mac having yearly releases.
So, I have asked about that as well and I have also pointed out that Ubuntu for example has LTS (Long Term Support) releases which are meant for things like this, so people don't have to update every 6 months.
UPDATE #2:
About his Mac point - It was one every other year back in 2009 but Mac now does yearly updates, 2011, 2012 and 2013 will have all had Mac OS X releases and they have said it will be yearly.
So basically guys, if you're looking for native Linux support out of the box you'll have to look elsewhere than GOG for now.
We have Steam, Desura, Gameolith, ShinyLoot, FireFlower Games and one day soon IndieCity too. One day GOG.com may support us and I will thank them when they do and we can put all this to rest!
I hope one day they support us but considering their answers I don't ever see it happening.
Here's the message I got from Trevor Longino, their Head of PR and Marketing, with thanks to Piotr Szczesniak who also works in the PR dept.
Trevor Longino GOG.comHi Liam,
Unfortunately not much has changed in our stance towards supporting Linux in the last few months and there is one main reason for that. Since our birth over 5 years ago we have always provided full customer support for all games we have released. That is not going to change. For every game we release we provide a money-back guarantee: if we can't get the game working on the customer's computer with the help of our support team, we return the money. The architecture of Linux with many common distros, each of them updating fairly often, makes it incredibly challenging for any digital distribution company to be able to properly test the game in question, and then provide support for the release--all of which our users are accustomed to.
Sure, we could probably release a client and sell the games and let Linux users worry about the rest. We don't consider it, however, a viable option for the business model we have followed so far. Apparently our model has its drawbacks, as we cannot make everyone happy, but, as of now, we don't plan on introducing Linux support in the foreseeable future.
So folks no matter the hints, you have it direct from their PR head.
This line is the bit that gets me:
QuoteThe architecture of Linux with many common distros, each of them updating fairly often, makes it incredibly challenging for any digital distribution company to be able to properly test the game in question, and then provide support for the release--all of which our users are accustomed to
It has often bugged me just how many distributions there are, but it's more of a problem with their own policies of refunding if they cannot get it to work for you which is a good policy, but on Linux it is fair enough that it could be trouble for them when someone tries to install x game on "Look Ma I Built A Distro v4" that has some crazy new configuration somewhere.
I will just leave this here:
UPDATE #1, I asked if it was basically the amount of distro's and how often they are updated that's really the issue:
Piotr Szczesniak GOG.comIt's a bit more than that.
There are a number of distros. We can support just one (which is how Steam is doing it), but since we believe strongly in freedom of choice, that's not our preference. On the other hand, supporting everything in the world is more burden than any business could assume So, the last time we looked into this, we investigated supporting three common ones: Mint, Debian, and Google's Chrome OS. We researched the number of OS updates, how often they occurred, when (and how frequently) various libraries are surpassed and deprecated. We then researched how often, for example, updates to these versions of Linux caused problems with DOSBox, SCUMMVM, and other tools that we make use of for our remastering process.
There is a difference in GOG.com's business model from Steam or any other distributor out there. *We* are on the hook for support of these games. And we update our support as the OSes that our games are running on are updated. That means that, unlike a developer or any other distributor, when we release on a Linux distro, we don't have to test once and then we're done. Each time there is a major update in an OS that we support that changes compatibility, we have to devote substantial time and resources to updating our catalog to work with the update. Sometimes, it may even occur that we cannot fix it in-house but rather have to spend the money to get it fixed by outside resources or else we'd have to remove the compatibility for the game from its game card. Imagine if we had 400 games from our 600+ game catalog supported on Linux and we found that a third of them no longer worked in a distro that we supported. Imagine the time and effort that would go into re-building 130 games.
Now take that kind of time and effort--time and effort that is not required by other OSes except on a one every four or five years' basis--and think of the cost we associate with it vs. the possible revenue that we might earn from Linux. Even if, on average, a Linux distro only has big updates as often as, say, Mac OSX does (every four or so years), unless these big updates are synchronized across the distros (which, historically, they're not) that means we're seeing the need to remaster some of our games every 14 - 16 months.
Until we can figure out something like a better way to automate testing and building games for GOG.com, there's no way that the economics of Linux support make sense for us. That said, we do know that there are plenty of people who want to be able to play their games with Linux-native support from us, and we continue to look for ways where we can automate this until it reaches a point where it is something that we believe we can do and not lose money at it.
So a long winded answer to basically say "Yes Linux is updated too often for us".
Strikes me as odd since even Windows which was once known for being exceptionally slow to make major OS updates has committed itself to having a much more regular release schedule now, along with Mac having yearly releases.
So, I have asked about that as well and I have also pointed out that Ubuntu for example has LTS (Long Term Support) releases which are meant for things like this, so people don't have to update every 6 months.
UPDATE #2:
Piotr Szczesniak GOG.comNo, it's not.
One, because Windows' faster releases are promised, but I'll believe it when I see it. As for Mac OS: "The desktop-oriented version, OS X, followed in March 2001 supporting the new Aqua user interface. Since then, seven more distinct "end-user" and "server" versions have been released." (seven versions released over 12 years or about one every other year).
Also, as I just noted below, to support Linux in a manner that we feel is consistent with our standards, we would need to support three distros each of which sticks to its own schedule and period for updates, and each of which brings in a tiny part of the revenue of Windows or even Mac. So, as I noted, it's a question of economics. Until we solve things our own end for how to make this scale economically, I don't see it happening any time soon. That said, we are investigating how to do this for a variety of issues beyond Linux support, so don't give up hope. Just don't expect it tomorrow, either.
About his Mac point - It was one every other year back in 2009 but Mac now does yearly updates, 2011, 2012 and 2013 will have all had Mac OS X releases and they have said it will be yearly.
So basically guys, if you're looking for native Linux support out of the box you'll have to look elsewhere than GOG for now.
We have Steam, Desura, Gameolith, ShinyLoot, FireFlower Games and one day soon IndieCity too. One day GOG.com may support us and I will thank them when they do and we can put all this to rest!
I hope one day they support us but considering their answers I don't ever see it happening.
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shaw we kickstart something about this gog linux thingy? huh?Are you insane? Do you have battered person syndrome?
You want to throw money at them after this shameless display of bullshittery?!?
But please, start! Even if it is only for the buzz!
I don't need their support, but it would be nice to have them remove the artificial barriers that they've erected.Not gonna happen. They have their heads too far up their arses.
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:)shaw we kickstart something about this gog linux thingy? huh?Are you insane? Do you have battered person syndrome?
You want to throw money at them after this shameless display of bullshittery?!?
C'mon pal they're a serious business. I really appreciate what they're doing for us.
Wish things could be easier for everyone involved. But everything seems so way above me that I don't even know what to say about this issue anymore.
AND this mr. Enigmatic T. is a true gentleman :D
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Battered person syndrome it is.
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I feel I need to point out that me and Trevor are actually on really good terms and we shall hopefully be revisiting this issue in a years time :).
I do not think gog.com are evil and I will easily be a customer of theirs if/when they come over to our side.
I do not think gog.com are evil and I will easily be a customer of theirs if/when they come over to our side.
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Interestingly, the community votes for Linux support are at almost 1/3rd of the votes for Grim Fandango. That can't be insignificant...
I've purchased 84 games on GoG. I have never once needed or wanted support from you. Having a legal way to get old games is fantastic. But I really don't understand the antagonism toward your customers here. If you won't support Linux, at least make it easy for us to support ourselves and I'll gladly keep buying games. If not, I think I'm done spending money with you.
I've purchased 84 games on GoG. I have never once needed or wanted support from you. Having a legal way to get old games is fantastic. But I really don't understand the antagonism toward your customers here. If you won't support Linux, at least make it easy for us to support ourselves and I'll gladly keep buying games. If not, I think I'm done spending money with you.
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I feel I need to point out that me and Trevor are actually on really good terms and we shall hopefully be revisiting this issue in a years time :).I believe the term is "frenemies", correct?
I do not think gog.com are evil and I will easily be a customer of theirs if/when they come over to our side.
Just tell him that if they don't capitulate we'll start a kickstarter to spend RMS to their home office. The more we raise, the longer he'll stay.
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Just tell him that if they don't capitulate we'll start a kickstarter to spend RMS to their home office. The more we raise, the longer he'll stay.*LOL* nice idea :) But better spend the money on defining/creating a platform so that GOG can address the linux ecosystem in a reasonable way. (technological, what Android did, defining a core system part and a stable binary API/ABI, to create open ISV platform)
But seriously,what would happen if someone would create a Indigogo or catincan campaign to expand gogonlinux to a professional level ?
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If I didn't have to jump through installshield/wine hoops to get the game data to play in DOSBOX, GoG would be a whole lot more viable for me. I don't need their support, but it would be nice to have them remove the artificial barriers that they've erected.
Not being a gog customer your comment helped me to understand the discussion a bit better. Thank you.
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First a C & D, then a lawsuit.Just tell him that if they don't capitulate we'll start a kickstarter to spend RMS to their home office. The more we raise, the longer he'll stay.*LOL* nice idea :) But better spend the money on defining/creating a platform so that GOG can address the linux ecosystem in a reasonable way. (technological, what Android did, defining a core system part and a stable binary API/ABI, to create open ISV platform)
But seriously,what would happen if someone would create a Indigogo or catincan campaign to expand gogonlinux to a professional level ?
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I never had problems to run my old games with Doxbox, SCUMMVM or any other open/libre engine, because i use stable releases.
Possible solution: make a gog client with stable releases of this engines, starting with Dosbox and so on.
Possible solution: make a gog client with stable releases of this engines, starting with Dosbox and so on.
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I never had problems to run my old games with Doxbox, SCUMMVM or any other open/libre engine, because i use stable releases.The concern is that the Kernel or the rest of the system architecture might change and render those "stable" releases unusable. Take the Neverwinter Nights 1 linux binary, a binary is about as stable as it gets. It doesn't work on some distributions, hell, I've haven't seen it work in years, if I play NWN1, I run it under Wine.
Possible solution: make a gog client with stable releases of this engines, starting with Dosbox and so on.
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It doesn't work on some distributions, hell, I've haven't seen it work in years, if I play NWN1, I run it under Wine.It still works as fine as on day one on Debian and Gentoo.
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It is interesting to see what distros made it onto their must-support list. I can think of justifications for each, but the inflexibility of refusing to adapt Linux support strategy after collecting more info suggests
* the people making the tech decisions are very stubborn
* they have very little interest in Linux support (maybe their Mac sales are insignificant compared to wndows)
* they are scared of messing up and looking like fools
or maybe some combination of the the above
Some change in market like a popular Steam box could be an excuse for them to re-evaluate, but until then we can mostly** forget about them.
**I've got a few kickstarter rewards that were GOG codes for old games by the same game designers, still need to get around to downloading a few of them with gogonlinux
* the people making the tech decisions are very stubborn
* they have very little interest in Linux support (maybe their Mac sales are insignificant compared to wndows)
* they are scared of messing up and looking like fools
or maybe some combination of the the above
Some change in market like a popular Steam box could be an excuse for them to re-evaluate, but until then we can mostly** forget about them.
**I've got a few kickstarter rewards that were GOG codes for old games by the same game designers, still need to get around to downloading a few of them with gogonlinux
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It doesn't work on some distributions, hell, I've haven't seen it work in years, if I play NWN1, I run it under Wine.It still works as fine as on day one on Debian and Gentoo.
I doubt it, unless you count the cluster of workarounds and having to chase down the forum discussions with the links to the files you need as the "same as day one". Not saying it can't be done, but if you give me the option of the process here: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/187/index/4643217
i.e. 5 pages of instructions
or
wine setup.exe
guess which I prefer?
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Can you ask them why they can't provide game data in a way that at least gives us the option of making it work for ourselves?Just in case you don't know it, you don't need to use their installers through Wine to get the data files for DOS games: you can extract the files with innoextract (it's in the Ubuntu repos, I guess it's in other distros repos too and widely available). You'll eventually have to edit their DOSBox config files a bit (mainly because they run them from the embedded DB directory, so you'll basically have to change the ".." paths to "." in the mounting commands).
If I didn't have to jump through installshield/wine hoops to get the game data to play in DOSBOX, GoG would be a whole lot more viable for me. I don't need their support, but it would be nice to have them remove the artificial barriers that they've erected.
It's still a bit of a mess to get the data but it's quicker than installing the games through Wine.
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PlayOnLinux has installers for most of the games anyways and Wine will use DosBox when appropriate. Some titles even have tweaks to make them run better, like the sound fix PoL implements for Darklands.Can you ask them why they can't provide game data in a way that at least gives us the option of making it work for ourselves?Just in case you don't know it, you don't need to use their installers through Wine to get the data files for DOS games: you can extract the files with innoextract (it's in the Ubuntu repos, I guess it's in other distros repos too and widely available). You'll eventually have to edit their DOSBox config files a bit (mainly because they run them from the embedded DB directory, so you'll basically have to change the ".." paths to "." in the mounting commands).
If I didn't have to jump through installshield/wine hoops to get the game data to play in DOSBOX, GoG would be a whole lot more viable for me. I don't need their support, but it would be nice to have them remove the artificial barriers that they've erected.
It's still a bit of a mess to get the data but it's quicker than installing the games through Wine.
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unless you count the cluster of workaroundsThis is because NWN was not release with the binary on the disc, you idiot.
This procedure there is actually easier than what you had to do back in 2003.
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What about pushing [part of] the work over to distros ? "Update X breaks game Y, we've opened a ticket on the distro's bug tracker here". This certainly needs some time to report bugs, but everybody will learn (code fixed either side). And if no solution is found, just put a front-page news on gog that some distro is not supported anymore because of failure to resolve an issue.
Also, I don't understand why gog doesn't just start a "beta" campaign: pick 5 popular games with existing linux ports, release, see how it goes, abort if too cumbersome and move to 10 games if it succeeds. After one year of success, move out of beta.
Also, I don't understand why gog doesn't just start a "beta" campaign: pick 5 popular games with existing linux ports, release, see how it goes, abort if too cumbersome and move to 10 games if it succeeds. After one year of success, move out of beta.
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...Yeah, I really don't think opening a report on a distro's bug tracker for a closed-source binary will go well.
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Again, I call BS.
There's a certain type of inconsistency in an argument that let's me know I'm not getting the true reason for a decision: A thesis and its antithesis are used to support one and the same argument.
a) Linux has to be seen as a monolithic block. You either support all of it or none (Including freaking Chrome OS!). There aren't anywhere near enough differences to justify supporting just one distro as an OS in its own right.
And btw, why are there so many distros all basically doing the same to begin with?
b) Linux is such an unholy mess of diversity. You can't possibly code a program that runs stable on all of Linux. (Given a) this is the reason there aren't any programs for Linux, as we all know).
And btw, why are there so many distros all doing some completely different shit, to begin with?
Linux user. Yeah, that makes sense. Really seems to be our fault. We really should abandon democracy because the Antidemocratic Alliance Party (AAP) believably assured us, there's some guy, Joe Sixpack, who couldn't figure out how to make a cross, let alone on which party.
They said they'll support democracy as soon as we abandon democracy to get this bloke on board of democracy!
There's a certain type of inconsistency in an argument that let's me know I'm not getting the true reason for a decision: A thesis and its antithesis are used to support one and the same argument.
a) Linux has to be seen as a monolithic block. You either support all of it or none (Including freaking Chrome OS!). There aren't anywhere near enough differences to justify supporting just one distro as an OS in its own right.
And btw, why are there so many distros all basically doing the same to begin with?
b) Linux is such an unholy mess of diversity. You can't possibly code a program that runs stable on all of Linux. (Given a) this is the reason there aren't any programs for Linux, as we all know).
And btw, why are there so many distros all doing some completely different shit, to begin with?
Linux user. Yeah, that makes sense. Really seems to be our fault. We really should abandon democracy because the Antidemocratic Alliance Party (AAP) believably assured us, there's some guy, Joe Sixpack, who couldn't figure out how to make a cross, let alone on which party.
They said they'll support democracy as soon as we abandon democracy to get this bloke on board of democracy!
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