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Note: This is a really old article, if you're here, I do suggest you read this article "Why The Porting Method Doesn't Matter For Linux Games".
Thanks to the recent fiasco of The Witcher 2 I wanted to write down some thoughts on why we shouldn't accept bad quality ports from developers.
Only in recent years have we had so many damned games in our Linux libraries that you now see comments from Linux gamers like "I've got too many games already!" which I imagine now sounds familiar to a lot of you. We have never before seen so much attention from developers thanks to Valve & Steam.
Also thanks to the push from developers we are seeing ports come along that are quite frankly lazy or just downright buggy to the point of being unplayable for a majority of people.
The problem is if we keep accepting ports at a sub-par quality then Linux will gain a reputation for having low quality games. Think about that big picture for a moment, seriously.
Imagine if you will that AAA developers started pushing out more games for Linux using technology like this "eON" that was used to port The Witcher 2. Let's say we have a lot of them and it suddenly looks like Linux has a lot of big-name games. You then have plenty of people trying out Linux, and seeing that their games run with terrible performance on the exact same hardware giving them the impression that Linux itself is bad for gaming. That's not good for anyone.
I've seen many people say "the toolkit used to port doesn't matter?". That in my eyes is a very naive statement to make. Of course it matters, it can mean the difference of light and day in the quality of a game on Linux. Which directly goes back to my point above about the perception of Linux gaming.
You can still say the toolkit doesn't matter and use whatever comparison/analogy you fancy, but if the toolkit is the root cause of the issue, like it will be 99% of the time when we are talking about computer software then yes, it does of course matter.
I've seen comments now from other major websites stating we should just accept them and be thankful we have them at all. That is an idiotic statement from people who don't look at the bigger picture.
Think about the developers and publishers who will see it as acceptable to push terrible Linux ports out the door and call it a day with only profits in mind. The consumer perception of Linux gaming would worsen yet again with even more bad quality ports.
I am all for ports from developers, of course I am I run this site after-all. I as a customer however do not want to pay for games that would work on Windows, but run like a snail on Linux, why should I? Why should you?
Final added point: You should never attack a developer when they reach out to the community having issues, that's not acceptable. Feedback is fine, but name calling is childish and makes Linux again look bad. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Thanks to the recent fiasco of The Witcher 2 I wanted to write down some thoughts on why we shouldn't accept bad quality ports from developers.
Only in recent years have we had so many damned games in our Linux libraries that you now see comments from Linux gamers like "I've got too many games already!" which I imagine now sounds familiar to a lot of you. We have never before seen so much attention from developers thanks to Valve & Steam.
Also thanks to the push from developers we are seeing ports come along that are quite frankly lazy or just downright buggy to the point of being unplayable for a majority of people.
The problem is if we keep accepting ports at a sub-par quality then Linux will gain a reputation for having low quality games. Think about that big picture for a moment, seriously.
Imagine if you will that AAA developers started pushing out more games for Linux using technology like this "eON" that was used to port The Witcher 2. Let's say we have a lot of them and it suddenly looks like Linux has a lot of big-name games. You then have plenty of people trying out Linux, and seeing that their games run with terrible performance on the exact same hardware giving them the impression that Linux itself is bad for gaming. That's not good for anyone.
I've seen many people say "the toolkit used to port doesn't matter?". That in my eyes is a very naive statement to make. Of course it matters, it can mean the difference of light and day in the quality of a game on Linux. Which directly goes back to my point above about the perception of Linux gaming.
You can still say the toolkit doesn't matter and use whatever comparison/analogy you fancy, but if the toolkit is the root cause of the issue, like it will be 99% of the time when we are talking about computer software then yes, it does of course matter.
I've seen comments now from other major websites stating we should just accept them and be thankful we have them at all. That is an idiotic statement from people who don't look at the bigger picture.
Think about the developers and publishers who will see it as acceptable to push terrible Linux ports out the door and call it a day with only profits in mind. The consumer perception of Linux gaming would worsen yet again with even more bad quality ports.
I am all for ports from developers, of course I am I run this site after-all. I as a customer however do not want to pay for games that would work on Windows, but run like a snail on Linux, why should I? Why should you?
Final added point: You should never attack a developer when they reach out to the community having issues, that's not acceptable. Feedback is fine, but name calling is childish and makes Linux again look bad. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Don't you mean "why we should not" in the first paragraph?
You saw nothing!
Hah, I did edit it before publishing, but that didn't save. Odd.
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Exactly my thoughts.
Thank you Liam!
Thank you Liam!
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While I do agree with you, I don't think the game that started this fuss (which is Witcher 2 I presume) will stay like that. The way I see it is that CDProjectRED released witcher 2 as beta for their gog version later this year, so they can polish it until then.
Why? Because they are all about gog way of doing thins, and this game is not like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but will see :)
Bottom line, bad ports are bad for community, but somehow I doubt that witcher 2 will stay a bad port.
Why? Because they are all about gog way of doing thins, and this game is not like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but will see :)
Bottom line, bad ports are bad for community, but somehow I doubt that witcher 2 will stay a bad port.
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I am not sure if we can change anything in this case. I can observe the same situation about games
for Mac OS X where most of the buyers are non-technical users. They usually do not care about the quality of the Mac ports if they do not have problems with them.
I want to remind that a lot of Linux users use Wine and other emulators, and I think that some producers believe that will be acceptable process of creating games for Linux.
for Mac OS X where most of the buyers are non-technical users. They usually do not care about the quality of the Mac ports if they do not have problems with them.
I want to remind that a lot of Linux users use Wine and other emulators, and I think that some producers believe that will be acceptable process of creating games for Linux.
1 Likes, Who?
I really do hope they fix issues, issues like game-pads not working are easy to fix as users have already pointed out simple ways to fix them. Considering the fixes are already known if they don't fix it officially it's more fuel on the fire.
Again though, I hope it is well supported as I want to play it, but with 9-10FPS even on lowest for me Witcher 2 right now is terrible.
Again though, I hope it is well supported as I want to play it, but with 9-10FPS even on lowest for me Witcher 2 right now is terrible.
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We have many indie games, but only few AAA titles (outside of Valve owned games). So do we have such luxury choice between good/bad ports?
I buy Wicher2 knowing that port have issues, because I decided vote with wallet for showing interest for Linux at all.
I hope that Wicher2 port will be improved. Quality of this port will affect my future game purchases of this company for sure.
I buy Wicher2 knowing that port have issues, because I decided vote with wallet for showing interest for Linux at all.
I hope that Wicher2 port will be improved. Quality of this port will affect my future game purchases of this company for sure.
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We have many indie games, but only few AAA titles (outside of Valve owned games). So do we have such luxury choice between good/bad ports?
Yes, of course you have a choice. No one is forcing you to buy a bad port. You don't have to buy just because it's a port either that's the entire point of my article.
Quality of this port will affect my future game purchases of this company for sureAs it will for many people, me included.
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I don't think we can ask developers to make quality ports to such a old games, but I agree that all new games should be made with Linux (at least all those which want to target Steam OS) in mind so that developers should not use such a shady ways to port games.
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For me is the same like accepting a newly created horrible bad game because it supports Linux/SteamOS.
I see many people vote "yes" many greenlight games because they support Linux/SteamOS no matter what game it is.
Many indie developers take advantage of the Linux Gaming Community , they know how bad we want games for Linux , so they just throw a game no matter how good it is.
The same goes with old games that are not selling any more , lets throw a bad Linux port to get some money.
I know everyone is excited when a new game is released, including me but actually the BEST Games for 2014 havent released yet for Linux and I dont thing will be released soon.
- Watch Dogs
- Dark Souls 2
- Wolfenstein the New Order
- The Forest - No Linux Support
- Stomping Land - No Linux Support
- Battlefield 4
I can keep going on....
We just need one Good Game Title to be released on Linux to show the difference between Windows and Linux.
For example if you have Left For Dead 3 on Linux and Windows and the performance on Linux is like 2x Times better , no crashes etc then you would see many people switching OS.
Lets hope in 2015 with the release of SteamOS Machines we will have better games on Linux.
I see many people vote "yes" many greenlight games because they support Linux/SteamOS no matter what game it is.
Many indie developers take advantage of the Linux Gaming Community , they know how bad we want games for Linux , so they just throw a game no matter how good it is.
The same goes with old games that are not selling any more , lets throw a bad Linux port to get some money.
I know everyone is excited when a new game is released, including me but actually the BEST Games for 2014 havent released yet for Linux and I dont thing will be released soon.
- Watch Dogs
- Dark Souls 2
- Wolfenstein the New Order
- The Forest - No Linux Support
- Stomping Land - No Linux Support
- Battlefield 4
I can keep going on....
We just need one Good Game Title to be released on Linux to show the difference between Windows and Linux.
For example if you have Left For Dead 3 on Linux and Windows and the performance on Linux is like 2x Times better , no crashes etc then you would see many people switching OS.
Lets hope in 2015 with the release of SteamOS Machines we will have better games on Linux.
2 Likes, Who?
I don't think we can ask developers to make quality ports to such a old games, but I agree that all new games should be made with Linux (at least all those which want to target Steam OS) in mind so that developers should not use such a shady ways to port games.
Yeah, this is pretty much it in a nutshell.
And a wee note to Liam directly. I support this site. Both with money and you'll also remember that despite that support, I also asked you NOT to remove your ads. I also contribute to the Funding Crowd article with Speedster and Munts - they're usually good for about 1000 page views each and we spend hours putting them together.
So to hear you still banging on about eON like it's actually relevant and quoting me in an editorial to yet again dismiss my arguments... well, what can I think? You certainly have no respect for my opinion - you've made that clear here. But I'm a big boy - call me naive in your editorial then, life will go on, the world will keep spinning.
But what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.
Disappointing.
1 Likes, Who?
And one more thing - this editorial is based on us "accepting" the port. When did we do that? I had this game in my library from some bundle I bought years ago - and I suspect most did too.
What constitutes our "acceptance". Buying the game? Too late. Playing it? Well, it's working great on my system. Are you suggesting I don't play it because a minority are having problems?
And is it a minority? How many people are actually affected by this terrible port that works really well for me?
I get it. You're angry because it doesn't work for you. Doubly so, if you bought the game. But using your editorial power to trash a company's efforts to enter the Linux market? Based on supposition?
No. I'm not supporting that.
What constitutes our "acceptance". Buying the game? Too late. Playing it? Well, it's working great on my system. Are you suggesting I don't play it because a minority are having problems?
And is it a minority? How many people are actually affected by this terrible port that works really well for me?
I get it. You're angry because it doesn't work for you. Doubly so, if you bought the game. But using your editorial power to trash a company's efforts to enter the Linux market? Based on supposition?
No. I'm not supporting that.
2 Likes, Who?
Hi Liam.
First of all, I'd like to say that I really like your work.
I think that your opinion is quite a bit tough from time to time. And I really do, because I also think we are living an awesome time to be Linux gamers. The day that Witcher 2 was released to Linux, Metro 2033 Redux was also announced to support Linux.
I didn't expect any of them, and I thought didn't neither!
Those could be bad ports, but it is just what we can expect at this time of the story. To be honest, I also think that it is also quite unnatural.
What I want to mean is, there are a lot of staff that know how to do great games, but they are trying to figure out how to do as good as they can on Linux. I am also quite sure that the maturity of the tools witch they are working aren't nearly as good as they want.
It is just matter of time that good ports come to Linux if those ports sell well.
Just forgive my english. It is not my own language. And keep playing on Linux!
First of all, I'd like to say that I really like your work.
I think that your opinion is quite a bit tough from time to time. And I really do, because I also think we are living an awesome time to be Linux gamers. The day that Witcher 2 was released to Linux, Metro 2033 Redux was also announced to support Linux.
I didn't expect any of them, and I thought didn't neither!
Those could be bad ports, but it is just what we can expect at this time of the story. To be honest, I also think that it is also quite unnatural.
What I want to mean is, there are a lot of staff that know how to do great games, but they are trying to figure out how to do as good as they can on Linux. I am also quite sure that the maturity of the tools witch they are working aren't nearly as good as they want.
It is just matter of time that good ports come to Linux if those ports sell well.
Just forgive my english. It is not my own language. And keep playing on Linux!
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i dont really care what they are using under the hood if the performance is on par with with windows version ... at least with good linux drivers.
i myself dont have performance problems with witcher 2... runs perfectly around 40-60fps most of the time.. all maxed except ubersample and vsync.. at 1920x1080 ... in some places it drops to below 30 a little though...but those are rare..
but a lot of people have issues..and i surely hope those will be fixed.
i myself dont have performance problems with witcher 2... runs perfectly around 40-60fps most of the time.. all maxed except ubersample and vsync.. at 1920x1080 ... in some places it drops to below 30 a little though...but those are rare..
but a lot of people have issues..and i surely hope those will be fixed.
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Now now Scaine. You need to take a chill pill it wasn't aimed at you directly, but you are included in that since you are one of many, there have been masses of comments from both sides on the toolkit. Why do you seem to think it's about you directly? That comes off as a bit big-headed.
I am giving my opinion in this piece, as that is what it is an editorial.
You have an opinion and so do I, stop acting like yours is the only one that matters. I state very clearly in this editorial why I feel the way I do.
I am giving my opinion in this piece, as that is what it is an editorial.
You have an opinion and so do I, stop acting like yours is the only one that matters. I state very clearly in this editorial why I feel the way I do.
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But what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.I'm curious, do you know of any other game ported to Linux with eON? Or is it the first one? From what I understand there might have been a few games released for Mac using it, right?
No, I don't know. Because I don't care. The result is what matters. Does it work well? Great. Don't care how it was done.
To be clear, I'm talking about ports of older games. I'd prefer future games to be made "properly", but you have to be realistic about this.
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I thought the sale was a good deal, and getting it on GoG is a great bonus =D
The perf is killing my experience though.
I mean, icculus' ports (native) are a lot more on-par with their Windows counterparts than this Witcher 2, and I doubt the devs of those games had Linux as a target platform in mind when they made the game.
I don't mind that they use a wrapper AS LONG AS IT WORKS. I had to go through so many fixes before I could even play this, like symlinking steam runtime libraries (shouldn't steam/the game automatically do this?) and using alsa instead of pulse to get the video to work
=S. Then, because of the bad perf, I get low framerates and laptop overheating (I gotta disassemble and clean it out again sometime =P) I can't play. Have yet to try Windows or GoG-Wine versions though.
The perf is killing my experience though.
I don't think we can ask developers to make quality ports to such a old gameswhether a game is old or not isn't really the issue imho - unless the engine you're working on in your newer game supports Linux (in which case all 'major' engines do).
I mean, icculus' ports (native) are a lot more on-par with their Windows counterparts than this Witcher 2, and I doubt the devs of those games had Linux as a target platform in mind when they made the game.
I don't mind that they use a wrapper AS LONG AS IT WORKS. I had to go through so many fixes before I could even play this, like symlinking steam runtime libraries (shouldn't steam/the game automatically do this?) and using alsa instead of pulse to get the video to work
=S. Then, because of the bad perf, I get low framerates and laptop overheating (I gotta disassemble and clean it out again sometime =P) I can't play. Have yet to try Windows or GoG-Wine versions though.
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while i do agree with what was said, you're clearly missing few points.
- until platform is accepted, don't expect developers to spend zillions in late game ports. there is simply not enough customer base. if game was new and in prime sale margins, yes. right now, witcher only sells few. even most linux users already bought it probably, while some don't like it, so don't try 1%=x people. late port is not on equal grounds as port
- bad ports are not linux specific. i dare you to try bethesda ports on ps3. skyrim or fallout and you'll see situation where horrific doesn't start to describe it. it all works well... until your save game passes 8-10MB and no way to shrink it. at that point, game starts lagging at 2-3fps. and larger your save game, shorter your play time, where you come at the point of having 1min play until restart. same bug in f3, f3:nw, skyrim. fix? never existed. you can finish game if you're not exploratory person. also, mac port is in exact same predicament as linux
- ports will always be inferior to native. unless you fix it up in the grounds on engine level. but, this poses 2 questions... will it pay back? is my current engine compatible with changes needed? Project Red clearly stated they made new engine for w3, so one has to take wild guess that fixing w2 engine would amount to fruitless work
- it was 2 days from release, why not at least give benefit of the doubt they'll fix it and wait a little by trying to address the issues where you should instead of making whiny political statement. sometimes even bad ports count as numbers
- until platform is accepted, don't expect developers to spend zillions in late game ports. there is simply not enough customer base. if game was new and in prime sale margins, yes. right now, witcher only sells few. even most linux users already bought it probably, while some don't like it, so don't try 1%=x people. late port is not on equal grounds as port
- bad ports are not linux specific. i dare you to try bethesda ports on ps3. skyrim or fallout and you'll see situation where horrific doesn't start to describe it. it all works well... until your save game passes 8-10MB and no way to shrink it. at that point, game starts lagging at 2-3fps. and larger your save game, shorter your play time, where you come at the point of having 1min play until restart. same bug in f3, f3:nw, skyrim. fix? never existed. you can finish game if you're not exploratory person. also, mac port is in exact same predicament as linux
- ports will always be inferior to native. unless you fix it up in the grounds on engine level. but, this poses 2 questions... will it pay back? is my current engine compatible with changes needed? Project Red clearly stated they made new engine for w3, so one has to take wild guess that fixing w2 engine would amount to fruitless work
- it was 2 days from release, why not at least give benefit of the doubt they'll fix it and wait a little by trying to address the issues where you should instead of making whiny political statement. sometimes even bad ports count as numbers
1 Likes, Who?
Well, I agree it does not matter provided it works well. That's not exactly the case in this instance. What if eON is the issue? Then it matters.No, I don't know. Because I don't care. The result is what matters. Does it work well? Great. Don't care how it was done.But what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.I'm curious, do you know of any other game ported to Linux with eON? Or is it the first one? From what I understand there might have been a few games released for Mac using it, right?
To be clear, I'm talking about ports of older games. I'd prefer future games to be made "properly", but you have to be realistic about this.
Well, this is digressing into the first argument all over again and I don't feel like talking about pizzas, geeks and the fashion industry all over again. I've stated my case. eON is irrelevant. The game "The Witcher 2" is what we should be talking about.
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And one more thing - this editorial is based on us "accepting" the port. When did we do that? I had this game in my library from some bundle I bought years ago - and I suspect most did too.
What constitutes our "acceptance". Buying the game? Too late. Playing it? Well, it's working great on my system. Are you suggesting I don't play it because a minority are having problems?
And is it a minority? How many people are actually affected by this terrible port that works really well for me?
I get it. You're angry because it doesn't work for you. Doubly so, if you bought the game. But using your editorial power to trash a company's efforts to enter the Linux market? Based on supposition?
No. I'm not supporting that.
I purchased the game believing it was a properly tested native port, I did not have it "from some bundle I bought years ago", since I am a Linux gamer not a Windows gamer. This is the situation for many people.
If it works for you that's good news, but to put me and others down because we are unhappy our money went on a game we can't play? That's actually quite low of you.
How many people are having issues? Have you not seen their steam forum absolutely full of complaints? Have you not seen the GOL comments full of complaints?
I will ALWAYS use my editorials to voice my opinion, that is EXACTLY what they are for and clearly marked as an editorial.
If you don't like my opinion, don't read it.
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I think we need the right combination of being open and forgiving towards devs that are new to Linux without allowing them to take us for fools.
That's why I am still royally pi55ed (really, word filter?) at GoG for just outright denying us existing Linux-Versions but (to my own surprise) I'm not mad at CDProject Red and the eON guys for making pretty much every beginner-mistake there is.
In my judgement,the former is taking us for PR-Speak-swallowing idiots the other is just getting everything wrong about how the Linux community ticks.
My main gripe with The Witcher 2 isn't about the wrapper. With new games it's a no-go but with existing AAA titles it's tolerable.
It just would have been nice to know beforehand that it isn't even beta.
I bought it although I knew that it probably wouldn't even start with my Radeon card (and although I already own it on GoG).
Had they been straightforward and just said "This port sucks, we know it but we had to start somewhere and now we need your help" the reaction would have been a lot more welcoming.
All that said, I think the guy who voluntarily jumped right into the lion's den to discuss issues was torn apart way too harshly.
I wouldn't be too surprised if any plans for Witcher 3 on Linux are reevaluated right now.
That's why I am still royally pi55ed (really, word filter?) at GoG for just outright denying us existing Linux-Versions but (to my own surprise) I'm not mad at CDProject Red and the eON guys for making pretty much every beginner-mistake there is.
In my judgement,the former is taking us for PR-Speak-swallowing idiots the other is just getting everything wrong about how the Linux community ticks.
My main gripe with The Witcher 2 isn't about the wrapper. With new games it's a no-go but with existing AAA titles it's tolerable.
It just would have been nice to know beforehand that it isn't even beta.
I bought it although I knew that it probably wouldn't even start with my Radeon card (and although I already own it on GoG).
Had they been straightforward and just said "This port sucks, we know it but we had to start somewhere and now we need your help" the reaction would have been a lot more welcoming.
All that said, I think the guy who voluntarily jumped right into the lion's den to discuss issues was torn apart way too harshly.
I wouldn't be too surprised if any plans for Witcher 3 on Linux are reevaluated right now.
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