Note: This is a really old article, if you're here, I do suggest you read this article "Why The Porting Method Doesn't Matter For Linux Games".
Thanks to the recent fiasco of The Witcher 2 I wanted to write down some thoughts on why we shouldn't accept bad quality ports from developers.
Only in recent years have we had so many damned games in our Linux libraries that you now see comments from Linux gamers like "I've got too many games already!" which I imagine now sounds familiar to a lot of you. We have never before seen so much attention from developers thanks to Valve & Steam.
Also thanks to the push from developers we are seeing ports come along that are quite frankly lazy or just downright buggy to the point of being unplayable for a majority of people.
The problem is if we keep accepting ports at a sub-par quality then Linux will gain a reputation for having low quality games. Think about that big picture for a moment, seriously.
Imagine if you will that AAA developers started pushing out more games for Linux using technology like this "eON" that was used to port The Witcher 2. Let's say we have a lot of them and it suddenly looks like Linux has a lot of big-name games. You then have plenty of people trying out Linux, and seeing that their games run with terrible performance on the exact same hardware giving them the impression that Linux itself is bad for gaming. That's not good for anyone.
I've seen many people say "the toolkit used to port doesn't matter?". That in my eyes is a very naive statement to make. Of course it matters, it can mean the difference of light and day in the quality of a game on Linux. Which directly goes back to my point above about the perception of Linux gaming.
You can still say the toolkit doesn't matter and use whatever comparison/analogy you fancy, but if the toolkit is the root cause of the issue, like it will be 99% of the time when we are talking about computer software then yes, it does of course matter.
I've seen comments now from other major websites stating we should just accept them and be thankful we have them at all. That is an idiotic statement from people who don't look at the bigger picture.
Think about the developers and publishers who will see it as acceptable to push terrible Linux ports out the door and call it a day with only profits in mind. The consumer perception of Linux gaming would worsen yet again with even more bad quality ports.
I am all for ports from developers, of course I am I run this site after-all. I as a customer however do not want to pay for games that would work on Windows, but run like a snail on Linux, why should I? Why should you?
Final added point: You should never attack a developer when they reach out to the community having issues, that's not acceptable. Feedback is fine, but name calling is childish and makes Linux again look bad. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Thanks to the recent fiasco of The Witcher 2 I wanted to write down some thoughts on why we shouldn't accept bad quality ports from developers.
Only in recent years have we had so many damned games in our Linux libraries that you now see comments from Linux gamers like "I've got too many games already!" which I imagine now sounds familiar to a lot of you. We have never before seen so much attention from developers thanks to Valve & Steam.
Also thanks to the push from developers we are seeing ports come along that are quite frankly lazy or just downright buggy to the point of being unplayable for a majority of people.
The problem is if we keep accepting ports at a sub-par quality then Linux will gain a reputation for having low quality games. Think about that big picture for a moment, seriously.
Imagine if you will that AAA developers started pushing out more games for Linux using technology like this "eON" that was used to port The Witcher 2. Let's say we have a lot of them and it suddenly looks like Linux has a lot of big-name games. You then have plenty of people trying out Linux, and seeing that their games run with terrible performance on the exact same hardware giving them the impression that Linux itself is bad for gaming. That's not good for anyone.
I've seen many people say "the toolkit used to port doesn't matter?". That in my eyes is a very naive statement to make. Of course it matters, it can mean the difference of light and day in the quality of a game on Linux. Which directly goes back to my point above about the perception of Linux gaming.
You can still say the toolkit doesn't matter and use whatever comparison/analogy you fancy, but if the toolkit is the root cause of the issue, like it will be 99% of the time when we are talking about computer software then yes, it does of course matter.
I've seen comments now from other major websites stating we should just accept them and be thankful we have them at all. That is an idiotic statement from people who don't look at the bigger picture.
Think about the developers and publishers who will see it as acceptable to push terrible Linux ports out the door and call it a day with only profits in mind. The consumer perception of Linux gaming would worsen yet again with even more bad quality ports.
I am all for ports from developers, of course I am I run this site after-all. I as a customer however do not want to pay for games that would work on Windows, but run like a snail on Linux, why should I? Why should you?
Final added point: You should never attack a developer when they reach out to the community having issues, that's not acceptable. Feedback is fine, but name calling is childish and makes Linux again look bad. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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BabaoWhisky May 25, 2014
TW2 is a bad port because it's an old game no ?
Maybe CDP has no the money, the people to develop the old version of RedEngine on Linux and it's it was a good way to use a wrapper ...
If CDP used a wrapper to TW2, it's possible that TW3/Cyberpunk will not use this and the Red Engine 3 will be port natively on Linux/SteamOS...
Maybe CDP has no the money, the people to develop the old version of RedEngine on Linux and it's it was a good way to use a wrapper ...
If CDP used a wrapper to TW2, it's possible that TW3/Cyberpunk will not use this and the Red Engine 3 will be port natively on Linux/SteamOS...
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Okay, let's assume that eON is irrelevant. What is it that makes The Witcher 2 Linux "port" crawl on apparently most hardware combinations?Well, this is digressing into the first argument all over again and I don't feel like talking about pizzas, geeks and the fashion industry all over again. I've stated my case. eON is irrelevant. The game "The Witcher 2" is what we should be talking about.Well, I agree it does not matter provided it works well. That's not exactly the case in this instance. What if eON is the issue? Then it matters.No, I don't know. Because I don't care. The result is what matters. Does it work well? Great. Don't care how it was done.But what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.I'm curious, do you know of any other game ported to Linux with eON? Or is it the first one? From what I understand there might have been a few games released for Mac using it, right?
To be clear, I'm talking about ports of older games. I'd prefer future games to be made "properly", but you have to be realistic about this.
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You have an opinion and so do I, stop acting like yours is the only one that matters. I state very clearly in this editorial why I feel the way I do.
pot calling kettle black ;)
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And one more thing - this editorial is based on us "accepting" the port. When did we do that? I had this game in my library from some bundle I bought years ago - and I suspect most did too.I purchased the game believing it was a properly tested native port, I did not have it "from some bundle I bought years ago", since I am a Linux gamer not a Windows gamer. This is the situation for many people.
What constitutes our "acceptance". Buying the game? Too late. Playing it? Well, it's working great on my system. Are you suggesting I don't play it because a minority are having problems?
And is it a minority? How many people are actually affected by this terrible port that works really well for me?
I get it. You're angry because it doesn't work for you. Doubly so, if you bought the game. But using your editorial power to trash a company's efforts to enter the Linux market? Based on supposition?
No. I'm not supporting that.
If it works for you that's good news, but to put me and others down because we are unhappy our money went on a game we can't play? That's actually quite low of you.
How many people are having issues? Have you not seen their steam forum absolutely full of complaints? Have you not seen the GOL comments full of complaints?
I will ALWAYS use my editorials to voice my opinion, that is EXACTLY what they are for and clearly marked as an editorial.
If you don't like my opinion, don't read it.
I didn't say to stop stating your opinion. I was simply being clear that I didn't like you calling me niave and using your editorial to do so.
I was expressing my disappointment with your lack of ability to listen to arguments and what I saw as a childish attitude, attacking a company that's trying their best to test the Linux waters.
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Okay, let's assume that eON is irrelevant. What is it that makes The Witcher 2 Linux "port" crawl on apparently most hardware combinations?Well, this is digressing into the first argument all over again and I don't feel like talking about pizzas, geeks and the fashion industry all over again. I've stated my case. eON is irrelevant. The game "The Witcher 2" is what we should be talking about.Well, I agree it does not matter provided it works well. That's not exactly the case in this instance. What if eON is the issue? Then it matters.No, I don't know. Because I don't care. The result is what matters. Does it work well? Great. Don't care how it was done.But what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.I'm curious, do you know of any other game ported to Linux with eON? Or is it the first one? From what I understand there might have been a few games released for Mac using it, right?
To be clear, I'm talking about ports of older games. I'd prefer future games to be made "properly", but you have to be realistic about this.
I don't care. As a customer, I simply want CD Projekt RED to fix it. I'm curious. Why do you care?
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- bad ports are not linux specific. i dare you to try bethesda ports on ps3. skyrim or fallout and you'll see situation where horrific doesn't start to describe it. it all works well... until your save game passes 8-10MB and no way to shrink it. at that point, game starts lagging at 2-3fps. and larger your save game, shorter your play time, where you come at the point of having 1min play until restart. same bug in f3, f3:nw, skyrim. fix? never existed. you can finish game if you're not exploratory person. also, mac port is in exact same predicament as linuxI really hate this kind of argument: the fact that bad ports exist for other platforms is not an excuse. If users, no consumers, are OK with that on console/mac, good for them. I'm not okay with it, and I'll vote with my wallet.
you actually can't hate it, since you agree with me, lol
as you said... whine in generics, not in specifics. problem with this article is that is targeted in every aspect. be it platform, be it almost single developer...
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That is how I feel Scaine and it won't change, again it's my opinion and as an editor I will always state it and clearly mark it as an editorial when I do so.
I have listened to your arguments at length and I simply do not agree. eON is part of The Witcher 2 we cannot just ignore the cause of the issues, that's like putting your fingers in your ears going "lalalala not listening".
I am also not attacking anyone, calling a developer a <colourful words here> is attacking. Stating the wrapper used is causing issues and that is not acceptable, that is feedback. If a company cannot act on feedback why the hell should anyone care about them?
Again, I hope they fix it all up, but judging by the Mac ports using eON I am doubly glad I wrote this editorial as they haven't fixed jack for their Mac ports performance and trust me I know, my partner recently got rid of her Mac and the ports using it where just as bad as TW2 is for me on Linux.
I have listened to your arguments at length and I simply do not agree. eON is part of The Witcher 2 we cannot just ignore the cause of the issues, that's like putting your fingers in your ears going "lalalala not listening".
I am also not attacking anyone, calling a developer a <colourful words here> is attacking. Stating the wrapper used is causing issues and that is not acceptable, that is feedback. If a company cannot act on feedback why the hell should anyone care about them?
Again, I hope they fix it all up, but judging by the Mac ports using eON I am doubly glad I wrote this editorial as they haven't fixed jack for their Mac ports performance and trust me I know, my partner recently got rid of her Mac and the ports using it where just as bad as TW2 is for me on Linux.
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I'd rather developers not port their games at all, than make ports that work for a fraction of their customers on Linux. It just makes Linux look bad to potential users.
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I bought Witcher 2 before it had circulated that the port was bad. I haven't been able to run it yet! It just segfaults. I'm thinking of getting a refund but I only spent $4 on it.
Reading here though, I am now certain that I will attempt to get my money back. Not because it was $4, but because if enough people clamor for their refunds the company will hopefully listen.
Reading here though, I am now certain that I will attempt to get my money back. Not because it was $4, but because if enough people clamor for their refunds the company will hopefully listen.
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Why do I care about a thing that makes the game to now work properly? Because I own it and I expect a non-beta release to work. People have pointed out that eON is most likely the cause for these problems and that means that they need to improve eON to run this game better.I don't care. As a customer, I simply want CD Projekt RED to fix it. I'm curious. Why do you care?Okay, let's assume that eON is irrelevant. What is it that makes The Witcher 2 Linux "port" crawl on apparently most hardware combinations?Well, this is digressing into the first argument all over again and I don't feel like talking about pizzas, geeks and the fashion industry all over again. I've stated my case. eON is irrelevant. The game "The Witcher 2" is what we should be talking about.Well, I agree it does not matter provided it works well. That's not exactly the case in this instance. What if eON is the issue? Then it matters.No, I don't know. Because I don't care. The result is what matters. Does it work well? Great. Don't care how it was done.But what rankles the most is that you're not listening. I've told you why eON is irrelevant and you just don't care.I'm curious, do you know of any other game ported to Linux with eON? Or is it the first one? From what I understand there might have been a few games released for Mac using it, right?
To be clear, I'm talking about ports of older games. I'd prefer future games to be made "properly", but you have to be realistic about this.
1 Likes, Who?
If a company cannot act on feedback why the hell should anyone care about them?
lol
let's see.
one dev jumped right into the problems in matter of minutes just to be shredded by people for no reason since all accusations were more than probably over his pay grade or not in his power
not even 2 days pass and liam whines all over the net how no one cares. guess it would be time to have your regular reality checkup
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Why do I care about a thing that makes the game to now work properly? Because I own it and I expect a non-beta release to work. People have pointed out that eON is most likely the cause for these problems and that means that they need to improve eON to run this game better.
Well sure. But do you know it's eON? The only people that can tell us for definite is CDPR and then we're back to my argument. I don't care if it's eON. I'd just want them to fix it.
Liam, in his last answer, suggests that previous eON ports for Mac have been bad too. Again, that has a lot of supposition, but if even he's right what can you do about it?
Obviously you can stop ever buying games that have eON in them, but there's two problems with that attitude.
1. How do you know?
2. Some eON ports work fine, so you could be avoiding a perfectly good game.
So I'd rather focus on the game itself rather than banging on uselessly and ineffectually about a component that works well in other situations.
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@Mr Anonymous
Another person not looking at the whole picture, this isn't about just Witcher 2 it's just an example. I'm guessing you don't understand my point on this at all.
Like I stated before, the Mac ports using eON are also terrible and I've play-tested them myself. They received very little after-care from VP (makers of eON).
I don't need a reality check thanks I am perfectly fine.
Another person not looking at the whole picture, this isn't about just Witcher 2 it's just an example. I'm guessing you don't understand my point on this at all.
Like I stated before, the Mac ports using eON are also terrible and I've play-tested them myself. They received very little after-care from VP (makers of eON).
I don't need a reality check thanks I am perfectly fine.
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That is how I feel Scaine and it won't change, again it's my opinion and as an editor I will always state it and clearly mark it as an editorial when I do so.
That's a big problem. Having an opinion. Good. Stating opinion in editorial? Good.
Disregarding arguments that could change your opinion? Ignoring arguments completely? Having your mind so made up that "it won't change". Ever?
That's definitely not good.
Tim Minchin puts it really well : http://www.timminchin.com/2013/09/25/occasional-address/
A famous bon mot asserts that opinions are like arse-holes, in that everyone has one. There is great wisdom in this… but I would add that opinions differ significantly from arse-holes, in that yours should be constantly and thoroughly examined.
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@Mr Anonymous
Another person not looking at the whole picture, this isn't about just Witcher 2 it's just an example. I'm guessing you don't understand my point on this at all.
Like I stated before, the Mac ports using eON are also terrible and I've play-tested them myself. They received very little after-care from VP (makers of eON).
I don't need a reality check thanks I am perfectly fine.
that is my point exactly. it isn't just about witcher or about linux. you just wrote it 100% like this. and to make it more affirmative about direction one only needs to read your comments
you either suffer from same problem as me. non native english speaker from slavic country where usual direct translation to english always sounds harsh or you really should rethink your editorial if you didn't put too many personal emotions into it
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My opinion changes all the time, in this one instance I just do not agree with yours Scaine it's that simple and is not an attack on you at all. It's not an attack on anyone, it's just my opinion which I and you and everyone else is free to state.
If I was truly disregarding peoples comments and opinions I wouldn't reply with my own thoughts on it.
If they fix up eON to the point of The Witcher 2 running well for me and the vast amounts of other people that it runs so terribly for then my opinion on eON itself will probably quite rightfully change.
If I was truly disregarding peoples comments and opinions I wouldn't reply with my own thoughts on it.
If they fix up eON to the point of The Witcher 2 running well for me and the vast amounts of other people that it runs so terribly for then my opinion on eON itself will probably quite rightfully change.
2 Likes, Who?
I didn't saw it that way before reading your article. Great post !
I still think wine can be good for ports, but only when it works really well. Right now, I guess it should be almost never.
I still think wine can be good for ports, but only when it works really well. Right now, I guess it should be almost never.
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Also if anyone wanted to write a counter-article to my own on why things like toolkits don't matter, why ports like this are okay yadada feel free.
Anyone can write an article to show on GOL.
Anyone can write an article to show on GOL.
2 Likes, Who?
I think the dev who went onto the Steam forum admitted that they had problems with Linux, which lead to decreased performance, so there have to be problems with their port. And because they didn't change the base game and just packaged it with eON, that leaves eON to blame for the performance.Why do I care about a thing that makes the game to now work properly? Because I own it and I expect a non-beta release to work. People have pointed out that eON is most likely the cause for these problems and that means that they need to improve eON to run this game better.Well sure. But do you know it's eON? The only people that can tell us for definite is CDPR and then we're back to my argument. I don't care if it's eON. I'd just want them to fix it.
Liam, in his last answer, suggests that previous eON ports for Mac have been bad too. Again, that has a lot of supposition, but if even he's right what can you do about it?
Obviously you can stop ever buying games that have eON in them, but there's two problems with that attitude.
1. How do you know?
2. Some eON ports work fine, so you could be avoiding a perfectly good game.
So I'd rather focus on the game itself rather than banging on uselessly and ineffectually about a component that works well in other situations.
Your second point is really off-topic, but now that you mentioned it, I have never heard of any eON games that worked perfectly. And I think you also said in an earlier message that you don't know other eON ports on Linux, so I doubt you know a single perfect eON port on Linux.
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but what is there to accept ?
wither 2 is an old game, the fans of this kind of game will have had it in their library ages ago because they played it under wine long ago. It now pops up in our library under Linux.
It's unrealistic to think that Project Red will spend money on a port of an old game that has been on so many sales that the chances of it bringing any return of the investment are slim. That does not mean that what they did was good but its understandable.
I do agree with you on bad ports but we should focus our anger on new games that try to get away with this, for wither 2 just load it up under wine and enjoy it big time :)
wither 2 is an old game, the fans of this kind of game will have had it in their library ages ago because they played it under wine long ago. It now pops up in our library under Linux.
It's unrealistic to think that Project Red will spend money on a port of an old game that has been on so many sales that the chances of it bringing any return of the investment are slim. That does not mean that what they did was good but its understandable.
I do agree with you on bad ports but we should focus our anger on new games that try to get away with this, for wither 2 just load it up under wine and enjoy it big time :)
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