Another day another developer speaking about OpenGL. This time around it's Aras Pranckevičius a developer of Unity.
He has a major point to make early on too:
I completely agree, as developers are starting to use OpenGL more and more as they look to support the growing Mac & Linux user-base that's thirsty for games.
I can't say I agree with many points he makes either especially when he states things like this:
I've never met a Windows gamer who doesn't update their graphics drivers, have you? Seems strange that someone who games on Windows wouldn't update the one thing that could really change their experience. Especially since on Windows things like the Nvidia control panel actually tells you each time there's a new update.
Not many people would be buying an actual graphics card not use Windows in-built drivers now would they?
Apparently that is now a power user thing to do which shocks me, just how little do you have to do to be a "power user" nowadays? I think this is a problem due to consoles, iphones & Androids since you have very little interaction other than updating apps (which you can make automatic).
Another thing about his post does shock me though:
You would think that someone who works on a game creation tool that supports building for Linux would look into it a bit more.
It seems Mantle and DirectX 12 have caused a massive stir amongst developers who have used OpenGL that's for sure. I wonder how many more developers will come out of their bat caves and speak up about OpenGL.
It is all well and good making blog posts on it, but if all people do is blog about it and not try and help OpenGL move forward in some way then we will just see a pattern of developers constantly speaking ill of it.
I'm not going to pretend that I have the faintest idea what all these blogs are talking about in regards to the innards of OpenGL. As a gamer I just want the best experience and more people helping out in developing OpenGL's API is always a good thing.
See the full post on it here from Aras. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
He has a major point to make early on too:
QuoteIf people complain, that at least means they do care!
I completely agree, as developers are starting to use OpenGL more and more as they look to support the growing Mac & Linux user-base that's thirsty for games.
I can't say I agree with many points he makes either especially when he states things like this:
QuoteOn Windows, out of the box, you do not get an OpenGL driver (but you do get a D3D one for most GPUs). And no, actual people out there do not update their drivers. Ever.
I've never met a Windows gamer who doesn't update their graphics drivers, have you? Seems strange that someone who games on Windows wouldn't update the one thing that could really change their experience. Especially since on Windows things like the Nvidia control panel actually tells you each time there's a new update.
Not many people would be buying an actual graphics card not use Windows in-built drivers now would they?
Apparently that is now a power user thing to do which shocks me, just how little do you have to do to be a "power user" nowadays? I think this is a problem due to consoles, iphones & Androids since you have very little interaction other than updating apps (which you can make automatic).
Another thing about his post does shock me though:
QuoteI’ve no idea about Linux. I know there are binary drivers for NV/AMD, and open source for Intel – but no idea about whether Linux people update drivers, or whether they come with OS etc.
You would think that someone who works on a game creation tool that supports building for Linux would look into it a bit more.
It seems Mantle and DirectX 12 have caused a massive stir amongst developers who have used OpenGL that's for sure. I wonder how many more developers will come out of their bat caves and speak up about OpenGL.
It is all well and good making blog posts on it, but if all people do is blog about it and not try and help OpenGL move forward in some way then we will just see a pattern of developers constantly speaking ill of it.
I'm not going to pretend that I have the faintest idea what all these blogs are talking about in regards to the innards of OpenGL. As a gamer I just want the best experience and more people helping out in developing OpenGL's API is always a good thing.
See the full post on it here from Aras. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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As other people already pointed out, not everyone is as tech savvy as the average or hardcore gamer might be. I have worked in hardware retail and have seen normal customers first hand, not updating drivers or security sensitive software on a regular basis.
Furthermore, what might be relatively easy to do on a desktop PC might turn into a nightmare on notebooks as I have experienced first hand on my own HP notebook from 2011 with an Intel HD 3000 + AMD 6770M which only runs relatively stable and smooth on modded drivers (thanks Leshcat!) with a modded BIOS (thanks Donovan!; to enable "dynamic mode") on Windows 8.1 (even worse performance and stability-wise on Windows 7). I have lost count how many houres I have wasted trying out broken drivers for this piece of bad engineering!
In "fixed mode" which is set by default in the non-modded BIOS, some 3D-Games (Battlefield 3 and 4 are the most prominent) just crash with awkward DirectX-Errors after several minutes of gameplay. Our typical customer would have waved the flag of surrender at the point he found out that he couldn't update his drivers with newer official ones from their website. The official AMD mobility drivers just recently (September 2013) became installable for this platform and still do not provide the same smoothness as the modded one's. Also the mentioned dx errors will just go away when set to dynamic mode.
But back on track: I hope Khronos adopts a Mantle-like approach just as Microsoft did. That would surely ease the burden of supporting different back-ends and thus porting to different platforms for ISVs and easing the driver work for the IHVs. Just to name a few advantages. As NVIDIA and INTEL are already on board for D3D12, I see less and less of a political issue here to work together with AMD on Khronos on this as well. Just name it OpenGL 5 or whatever to let them keep their face.
Furthermore, what might be relatively easy to do on a desktop PC might turn into a nightmare on notebooks as I have experienced first hand on my own HP notebook from 2011 with an Intel HD 3000 + AMD 6770M which only runs relatively stable and smooth on modded drivers (thanks Leshcat!) with a modded BIOS (thanks Donovan!; to enable "dynamic mode") on Windows 8.1 (even worse performance and stability-wise on Windows 7). I have lost count how many houres I have wasted trying out broken drivers for this piece of bad engineering!
In "fixed mode" which is set by default in the non-modded BIOS, some 3D-Games (Battlefield 3 and 4 are the most prominent) just crash with awkward DirectX-Errors after several minutes of gameplay. Our typical customer would have waved the flag of surrender at the point he found out that he couldn't update his drivers with newer official ones from their website. The official AMD mobility drivers just recently (September 2013) became installable for this platform and still do not provide the same smoothness as the modded one's. Also the mentioned dx errors will just go away when set to dynamic mode.
But back on track: I hope Khronos adopts a Mantle-like approach just as Microsoft did. That would surely ease the burden of supporting different back-ends and thus porting to different platforms for ISVs and easing the driver work for the IHVs. Just to name a few advantages. As NVIDIA and INTEL are already on board for D3D12, I see less and less of a political issue here to work together with AMD on Khronos on this as well. Just name it OpenGL 5 or whatever to let them keep their face.
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Sometimes I think that hybrid graphics brought more problems than resolved :/true, having constant issues with bumblebee on linux, on windows optimus works fine though, but on linux it's a hell to get working
But seriously, post lots of pro-OpenGL articles now, to even out the argument, from actual long-time Linux (if not Linux-ONLY) OpenGL developers.like this one?
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX
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I've never met a Windows gamer who doesn't update their graphics drivers, have you?Yes, many, all casual gamers though.
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This is probably going to be just like Wayland vs Mir.
Once everyone got upset and it became famous/infamous people started caring because they got upset - then development speed up because suddenly everyone cared so they started contributing.
--
I mean, who would want to spend their time on a boring project like OpenSSL
/sarcasm /point-proven
Once everyone got upset and it became famous/infamous people started caring because they got upset - then development speed up because suddenly everyone cared so they started contributing.
--
I mean, who would want to spend their time on a boring project like OpenSSL
/sarcasm /point-proven
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So Windows is shipping with graphic drivers that have OpenGL support stripped out? MS has always been very smart when it comes to protecting their interests. The current anti-OpenGL campaign seems to be in the very same line. Developers complaining that it's OpenGL's fault that MS strips OpenGL support out from their graphic drivers, how absurd that is?
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I actually find it the opposite when it comes to video drivers. I think Linux users are less likely to upgrade due to stability reasons. It's more likely to update it with their distro. On Mac video driver updates are mandated by Apple, so Mac users don't have a choice when they upgrade it or not.
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So Windows is shipping with graphic drivers that have OpenGL support stripped out? MS has always been very smart when it comes to protecting their interests.Correct. AMD drivers and some Intel drivers bundled with Windows lack OpenGL support, but main problem it's fact that player can't easily replace update AMD and Intel drivers and this have nothing to do with MS.
The current anti-OpenGL campaign seems to be in the very same line. Developers complaining that it's OpenGL's fault that MS strips OpenGL support out from their graphic drivers, how absurd that is?If you try to look around you'll notice that MS don't give a shit about PC games and there is no "anti-OpenGL campaign".
Game developers just trying to sent some signal to everyone include AMD and Intel to make them fix their crappy drivers. And yeah if MS distribute crippled AMD legacy drivers this mean it's AMD allowed them to do so.
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Is it just me or does this guy seem totally, completely out of touch with the non linux world? It seems he's spouting off about something he has zero-point-zero knowledge about.
<paraphrase> "windows users don't update their drivers" WTF planet do you live on? If you're any type of gamer you check, EAGERLY, regularly.
This is a useless article, you interviewed a coffee enthusiast who decided to badmouth espresso when he's never actually had one. Okay - that may be a bad analogy, but seriously, he's out of touch.
<paraphrase> "windows users don't update their drivers" WTF planet do you live on? If you're any type of gamer you check, EAGERLY, regularly.
This is a useless article, you interviewed a coffee enthusiast who decided to badmouth espresso when he's never actually had one. Okay - that may be a bad analogy, but seriously, he's out of touch.
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Is it just me or does this guy seem totally, completely out of touch with the non linux world? It seems he's spouting off about something he has zero-point-zero knowledge about.Of course, this guy knows nothing. He's a lead on unity 3D rendering team, with dozens of articles, talks and conferences, with real world data about drivers installation base, but his opinion has no value, because your experience and perhaps the experience of your close circle is different. Great argument.
Guess what? The world is really big, it doesn't end at the tip of your nose.
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This guy a f*cking idiot. "And no, actual people out there do not update their drivers. Ever." Oh yes we bloody do. Frequently. I agree Liam, for someone who is supposed to be programming games for Linux this guy is sadly lacking in even the most rudimentary knowledge of PCs and users.
If the guy has nothing to offer in making OpenGL better and contributing to the code then he can stick his opinion where the sun doesn't doesn't shine.
You should revisit your opinion, create an informed one or going trolling somewhere else.
This guy knows more about OpenGL than you will know in your whole life. This guy is a well respected graphics programmer which, more over, is defending opengl, just saying it has its flaws, not necessarily related to opengl itself but how drivers are distributed. This guy doesn't program games, but programs a widely used technology to create them. And probably, this guy knows way better than you, how many users (no mega fancy gamers like you) have their drivers up to date.
At the end, this regular users may want to play games too.
Just for your information, this guy, is the one that has released the glsl optimizer that others praise as a wonderful tool. So, a bit of respect for people that knows what they're talking about. Sorry but can't say the same about your opinion.
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My answer to this developer is the same as the other one, stop complaining about it & get your hands in there & fix it.
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Do everyone knows of the ppas Xswat or Xorg-edgers to get the latest drivers?
Just installed Nvidia 337.25 driver and with my GTX-650, the witcher 2 (you know the game everyone complains it's a crappy port? ;)) at mid-specs looks great. Much better in texture application than 331.38. and the fps rate is good.
My second tought about this is to get these drivers you must know the way to do it. Why isn't it offered "out of the box" at Ubuntu's installation with a special note or warning, if need be, in the additional drivers panel?
I'm not complaining, there must be a reason that I don't know of but in my Linux experience, using a ppa is much easier that downloading the binaries from the hardware manufacturer...
Just installed Nvidia 337.25 driver and with my GTX-650, the witcher 2 (you know the game everyone complains it's a crappy port? ;)) at mid-specs looks great. Much better in texture application than 331.38. and the fps rate is good.
My second tought about this is to get these drivers you must know the way to do it. Why isn't it offered "out of the box" at Ubuntu's installation with a special note or warning, if need be, in the additional drivers panel?
I'm not complaining, there must be a reason that I don't know of but in my Linux experience, using a ppa is much easier that downloading the binaries from the hardware manufacturer...
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I think the drivers are faulty, but in a different way.
The big concern I have about gfx drivers is that they are tweaked, twisted and shaped around applications, especially games. In my eyes this is the wrong way to fix things.
As it is now, game and engine developers code their stuff for DirectX or AnyGL and relies somewhat on the assumption, that GPU vendors will hack "optimizations" around any quirks your special use case might need for a speedup. Just have a look at how big these drivers got over the years!
As a gamer you might just see the fps increase or enjoy prettier visuals ingame, but is this the right way to handle this?
Wouldn't it be better to have strict and usefull APIs and have the implementors use them correctly instead of dancing around everyone elses faulty code by adding little (or not so little) shortcuts in the driver to fix what most probably wasn't broken in the first place?
The thing is: if a workaround for game A does one thing for game A specifically, how will all the other games benefit from that, if the fix is limited to that single application?
The big concern I have about gfx drivers is that they are tweaked, twisted and shaped around applications, especially games. In my eyes this is the wrong way to fix things.
As it is now, game and engine developers code their stuff for DirectX or AnyGL and relies somewhat on the assumption, that GPU vendors will hack "optimizations" around any quirks your special use case might need for a speedup. Just have a look at how big these drivers got over the years!
As a gamer you might just see the fps increase or enjoy prettier visuals ingame, but is this the right way to handle this?
Wouldn't it be better to have strict and usefull APIs and have the implementors use them correctly instead of dancing around everyone elses faulty code by adding little (or not so little) shortcuts in the driver to fix what most probably wasn't broken in the first place?
The thing is: if a workaround for game A does one thing for game A specifically, how will all the other games benefit from that, if the fix is limited to that single application?
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If you try to look around you'll notice that MS don't give a #$@% about PC games and there is no "anti-OpenGL campaign".
I'm not going to take issue with everything you said, but there is an anti-OpenGL campaign by Microsoft, and there has been since almost the first day they released Direct3D nineteen years ago.
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I game on Windows and don't update my graphics driver unless I am experiencing an issue. Most of the time updates go smoothly, but sometimes they introduce problems. That's the reason for that old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Besides, I don't usually run the newest graphics card, and those updates to Windows drivers just don't add greater functionality. Too many times the improvements are geared toward a specific new chipset and/or a game I don't play.
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LinuxGamesTV Jun 7, 2014
Judging by the number of support posts in PC Game forums that contain the words "update your drivers" it's clear to me that not everyone does. I personsonally don't. It takes ages and it often breaks (NVidia installer just hangs). I do it only when a specific game does not work.
???? I can't confirm that. Not on Linux and not on Windows. Yes some nvidia GTX Cards need old Drivers for some Games (on Windows) but on Linux? No. I use every Time the latest nv cs. driver thats works with the latest kernel.
If the latest nv driver not works with the latest kernel, so i don't update the kernel but the NV driver i did.
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Wow I honestly thought the amount of "gamers" who didn't update their graphics drivers was low. I am utterly shocked that doing something as simple as that is now what a power user does, my how levels have come downActually, I think you shouldn't think of it like a power user level has come down, but more like the amount of casual and new PC users has risen in recent times - meaning the amount of PC users well under the power user level has increased big time.
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Is itt me or does this guy seem totally, completely out of touch with the non linux world? It seems he's spouting off about something he has zero-point-zero knowledge about.With what form of certainty can you debunk his points? How many'gamers' do you know, what percentage of all 'gamers' do you think that is? Just cos you don't think something is true doesn't mean you're right...
<paraphrase> "windows users don't update their drivers" WTF planet do you live on? If you're any type of gamer you check, EAGERLY, regularly.
This is a useless article, you interviewed a coffee enthusiast who decided to badmouth espresso when he's never actually had one. Okay - that may be a bad analogy, but seriously, he's out of touch.
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