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PayPalIt seems Puppy Games the developers behind fun games like Revenge of the Titans have expressed their concern about Linux sales.
They took to twitter to say this:
LINUX GAMERS! To date we've made just **$12,000** from Linux games in total for all time for all four of our games! This will not do!
— Puppygames (@puppygames) September 8, 2014
Linux is a small, but growing market we know that, but some developers aren't in it for fun and only see the numbers. They said in another tweet that a factor of 10 would make it more attractive.
Personally I doubt any single developer has made a figure of $120,000 (factor of 10 on their lifetime Linux sales) from a Linux game alone yet, and hell the vast majority of indie games coming out probably won't make that in their entire lifetime.
They have four games and three employees to maintain, so I can understand where they are coming from, but with a market that's still small developers shouldn't expect too much from it yet.
UPDATE
@gamingonlinux just Steam over the last 2 years. We only otherwise sell through Humble these days but that's so little money it's irrelevant
— Puppygames (@puppygames) September 8, 2014
It seems they are only counting Steam, so their original tweet seems a little baiting to get a reaction and more sales. Not a bad thing to try to get more sales, but maybe they should actively engage with the Linux community like some other developers do?
Take it with a grain of salt too, as tweets are hard to get the message across and it's probably more friendly than it seems at first glance.
They aren't counting their own Humble Weekly Bundle which actually gave them revenue from Linux gamers at a mark around $14,000 (not counting charity) which is more than Steam, so they actually made a fair bit more from Linux than they have mentioned it seems.
They confirmed in a comment later it's around the $8,000 mark. That nearly doubled the figure in their original tweet.
They were in a Humble Bundle as well which they aren't counting, and to quote someone from reddit on the matter:
QuoteI'm curious what the breakdown by platforms was from them in the Humble Bundles. Based on this site HiB2 made $361214.76 from Linux users.
Assuming that all of them gave half to charity (leaving $180607.38) and split the non-charitable potion evenly 12 way between the 5 HiB2 games, the 6 HiB games that got pulled in and the tip for Wolfire, they should have gotten $15050.
I would also be interested to know how much they say they got from that Humble Bundle. I am pretty sure they used to do direct sales at one point too, so again a fair bit they don't seem to be counting.
Puppy Games have noted they aren't about to stop supporting Linux, but they see it as unprofitable:
@shadowrabbit64 @fdgonthier we've supported Linux for 11 years, not about to stop now. Just remarking that it is incredibly unprofitable
Puppygames (@puppygames) September 9, 2014
What do you make of all this? It's interesting to see.
If you want to support them consider buying their games on Steam. Looks like they could do with some more love from Linux gamers don't you think?
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natewardawg Sep 8, 2014
From the blog post that EKRboi linked to (http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1369) they had made about $620k total as of Mid-2013 and I suspect it hasn't gone up too much from that. A projection of Linux's 1% market should get them about $6,200, yet they got $12,000. The $12k figure is from Steam sales only and the $620k figure includes all sales.
That means that the Linux user base has supported them by double of what they should expect. So the Tweet comes across as showing either a) a lack of research of their own data and/or b) an unrealistic expectation.
Soon, we'll be able to get Borderlands 2 on Linux (2012 AAA) for $20. Is Revenge of the Titans (2011 Indie) really worth half of Borderlands 2? So, their prices are unrealistic as well.
That means that the Linux user base has supported them by double of what they should expect. So the Tweet comes across as showing either a) a lack of research of their own data and/or b) an unrealistic expectation.
Soon, we'll be able to get Borderlands 2 on Linux (2012 AAA) for $20. Is Revenge of the Titans (2011 Indie) really worth half of Borderlands 2? So, their prices are unrealistic as well.
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Quoting: GuestWhy trolling? They are selling games for 10€ per piece, so they made only like 930 sales. With 5 games. That's awfully low and he has good reason to feel concerned.Quoting: EKRboiYou know what is WRONG? Going on your social media sites and crying to the folks who did buy your games (probably why they followed you on twitter after all...) that they didn't give you enough money. If that is not bad business.. well I don't know what is.This. I fail to understand that tweet. The guy released his games for Linux and now is trolling to annoy Linux gamers and lose sales. That doesn’t make sense. Maybe he was drunk.
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abelthorne Sep 8, 2014
The point is not about what you think of their games or if you feel that 12 000 $ is enough money. The point is that they expected a boost in sales from Linux gamers when Steam was made available on our OS of choice. Yet, one year and a half later, they see that Linux sales are only around 1% of their sales on Steam.
There are some factors that might explain this, as I pointed out on Twitter (@boblaloutre):
- most (if not all) of their games were available before Steam was available on Linux, so all the people that bought them at that time and play them on Linux now are not counted as Linux sales
- their games have appeared in bundles (especially Revenge of the Titans) and most of the Linux players probably bought them there rather than on Steam
- there are some people (I'm one of them) that prefer to buy games on the Humble Store when possible for some reasons (DRM-free build + Steam key, or the fact that for Europe it is cheaper to buy on the Humble Store than on Steam), even if they then play on Steam
On the other side, their main problem is that while a lot of gamers already own their games for a long time, they continue to sell on Steam for Windows and logically they should sell at the same rate (proportions-wise) on Linux. Yet, it seems that almost every new buyer is on Windows, so it's understandable that they're asking why.
Anyway, it would be more logical to see how much they sold on Linux in every store, not only Steam (but i guess Steam is the only one that can give them proper statistics per platform).
Also, I think they would have a more precise overview of the market when they release a new game, so that Linux players won't be accounted as Windows players. Maybe it'll still be 1%, maybe it'll be better. They'll also want to see if the figures evolve when the Steambox begin to sell.
There are some factors that might explain this, as I pointed out on Twitter (@boblaloutre):
- most (if not all) of their games were available before Steam was available on Linux, so all the people that bought them at that time and play them on Linux now are not counted as Linux sales
- their games have appeared in bundles (especially Revenge of the Titans) and most of the Linux players probably bought them there rather than on Steam
- there are some people (I'm one of them) that prefer to buy games on the Humble Store when possible for some reasons (DRM-free build + Steam key, or the fact that for Europe it is cheaper to buy on the Humble Store than on Steam), even if they then play on Steam
On the other side, their main problem is that while a lot of gamers already own their games for a long time, they continue to sell on Steam for Windows and logically they should sell at the same rate (proportions-wise) on Linux. Yet, it seems that almost every new buyer is on Windows, so it's understandable that they're asking why.
Anyway, it would be more logical to see how much they sold on Linux in every store, not only Steam (but i guess Steam is the only one that can give them proper statistics per platform).
Also, I think they would have a more precise overview of the market when they release a new game, so that Linux players won't be accounted as Windows players. Maybe it'll still be 1%, maybe it'll be better. They'll also want to see if the figures evolve when the Steambox begin to sell.
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ElectricPrism Sep 8, 2014
According to IGN there are 75 Million Steam Users.
According to the Steam Linux data 1% of Steam users are on Linux.
That means the maximum potential sale count for a developer selling a game on Linux / Steam is about 750,000 sales per game if 100% of Steam Linux users bought a game.
If 1% of us bought a game at $9.99 that means $749,250 for a game developer from a measly 1% of users of 1% steam.
I seriously doubt they only made $12,000 as most linux users already owned their game from the Humble Bundle. Also, I bought their games, but their games really aren't that fun - that game RoboCraft is more likely to get my money because the free to play model pulled me in and I desperately want in game content.
My experience with Puppy games can be described as "disappointed" and "mediocre".
According to the Steam Linux data 1% of Steam users are on Linux.
That means the maximum potential sale count for a developer selling a game on Linux / Steam is about 750,000 sales per game if 100% of Steam Linux users bought a game.
If 1% of us bought a game at $9.99 that means $749,250 for a game developer from a measly 1% of users of 1% steam.
I seriously doubt they only made $12,000 as most linux users already owned their game from the Humble Bundle. Also, I bought their games, but their games really aren't that fun - that game RoboCraft is more likely to get my money because the free to play model pulled me in and I desperately want in game content.
My experience with Puppy games can be described as "disappointed" and "mediocre".
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Quoting: natewardawgFrom the blog post that EKRboi linked to (http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1369) they had made about $620k total as of Mid-2013 and I suspect it hasn't gone up too much from that. A projection of Linux's 1% market should get them about $6,200, yet they got $12,000. The $12k figure is from Steam sales only and the $620k figure includes all sales.
That means that the Linux user base has supported them by double of what they should expect. So the Tweet comes across as showing either a) a lack of research of their own data and/or b) an unrealistic expectation.
Came to around the same results here and I was also surprised of what they had to say about their Linux figures considering it's only 1% of the gaming landscape (and they should know it). Moreover this $12K seems to be from Steam only? That would mean that just with Steam, us (Linux gamers), made the double of what they should expect for the entire lifetimes of their games. Not bad... not bad at all, I say.
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Quoting: kozecWhy trolling? They are selling games for 10€ per piece, so they made only like 930 sales. With 5 games. That's awfully low and he has good reason to feel concerned.
The games have been available for windows much longer than they have been available for linux, and the games play fine in wine. So I am guessing that the people who wanted the games already bought them and a bunch of those could have already been using wine on linux to play them.. but steam in wine reports as windows. I can only assume that quite a few of the linux sales they have received since making a linux port available are more than likely people who simply bought the games to support the linux gaming movement even if they had no interest in playing the games.
Like others have said.. if they want some #'s that actually mean something they need to release a new game with linux support from day one. Other wise there are just too many variables at this point in the game.
Valve needs to start keeping track of what games get played in wine and on which platform (linux,OSX,bsd..). I'm sure there is a way to tell. Then make those #'s available to all.
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natewardawg Sep 8, 2014
Quoting: CreakCame to around the same results here and I was also surprised of what they had to say about their Linux figures considering it's only 1% of the gaming landscape (and they should know it). Moreover this $12K seems to be from Steam only? That would mean that just with Steam, us (Linux gamers), made the double of what they should expect for the entire lifetimes of their games. Not bad... not bad at all, I say.
Exactly my thoughts and yes, they admit in the Tweet replies that the $12k is only from Steam.
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I also already own all their games thanks to the Humble Bundle, so they got money out of me.
I never once installed one of them, though, since they're not my cup of tea.
I never once installed one of them, though, since they're not my cup of tea.
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I got these games in a bundle. I wouldn't of bought them individually from steam. They just didn't seem appealing to me as much.
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One, they are not counting all Linux games sales and it is not fair because I'm pretty sure every Linux gamers out there as bough almost if not all the HIBs so they already own some of their games and are not going to buy them twice. Also they would not have been on HIB at that time if their games were not on Linux.
Two, It is working well for a lot of others developers so I'm going to assume they are just doing it wrong.
Three, as of January 2014 5% of their sales were on Linux (http://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/linux-game-sales-statistics-from-multiple-developers.2963) if their statement is true that mean that as of January 2014 they made less than 240K€ with all their games on all platforms, I highly doubt that.
To conclude, IMHO they are not making enough money (in all platforms) to keep the company running and they are searching for someone to blame other than themselves.
Also, this : http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574. They actually tell to every buyer on Steam that they are just a piece of s**t (I'm not exaggerating). Read it and tell me they do not deserve this.
Two, It is working well for a lot of others developers so I'm going to assume they are just doing it wrong.
Three, as of January 2014 5% of their sales were on Linux (http://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/linux-game-sales-statistics-from-multiple-developers.2963) if their statement is true that mean that as of January 2014 they made less than 240K€ with all their games on all platforms, I highly doubt that.
To conclude, IMHO they are not making enough money (in all platforms) to keep the company running and they are searching for someone to blame other than themselves.
Also, this : http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574. They actually tell to every buyer on Steam that they are just a piece of s**t (I'm not exaggerating). Read it and tell me they do not deserve this.
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Quoting: NyamiouAlso, this : http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=1574. They actually tell to every buyer on Steam that they are just a piece of s**t (I'm not exaggerating). Read it and tell me they do not deserve this.
I read more of that blog than I care to admit.. it's sad really. Someone who has a financial interest in puppy games needs to keep this guy from speaking to the public on the companies behalf. He is digging his own hole. Steam may have brought the price of his games down to $10. Simply being available on steam has givin them a broader audience than they had before. If not enough people are willing to buy your game at $10 and wait for sales or 90% off coupons.. then that should tell you something. The truth hurts sometimes.. and it seems the truth here is that not many people like your games. I just checked on the total users playing their Revenge of the Titans game on steam.. 11. yep 11 people out of 4.5 million currently logged in.
yep.. the linux platform is the problem. smh. I wish it showed how many of those 11 were playing it on linux right now.
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oldrocker99 Sep 9, 2014
I bought all of their games in some HB some years ago. "Revenge of the Titans" was the only one I played twice. It was likely to have been the first tower defense game I played, and I liked it. Since then, and it's been years, I have over a dozen TD games in my Steam library, all of which have far better graphics; OTTTD litters the paths with the guts of the monsters you've killed. I might play that Puppy game again, on a phone or tablet (not my computer), but I have "Plants Vs. Zombies" already, and, frankly, it's deeper, and more fun.
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Looks like they're trying to spur people on to buy their games, and they're doing it in that oh so internet way by guilt tripping and shaming everyone. More power to them. They're hardly the first to try it, and maybe they'll be among the fortunate few it works for.
But their biggest problem, at least from my perspective, is this:
I have Revenge of the Titans. I bought it before I got slightly burnt out on tower defense games, and loved it. Thought it was great. But up until this moment, I had never really thought of Puppy Games. If you were to run up to me tomorrow and tell me they're releasing a new game, I'd be like "who?". You'd have to tell me they're the Revenge of the Titans people before I'd be like "oh, yeah. That was a fun game. I'll bet their next game will be fun, too". Hell, I didn't know they made anything besides Revenge of the Titans up until now.
And that's their problem. They're not doing enough to make themselves a well known brand. They've got the talent, but they're not playing the media game nearly enough. Tasteless though it can be sometimes, it's a dirty necessity if you want your brand to become well know.
But their biggest problem, at least from my perspective, is this:
I have Revenge of the Titans. I bought it before I got slightly burnt out on tower defense games, and loved it. Thought it was great. But up until this moment, I had never really thought of Puppy Games. If you were to run up to me tomorrow and tell me they're releasing a new game, I'd be like "who?". You'd have to tell me they're the Revenge of the Titans people before I'd be like "oh, yeah. That was a fun game. I'll bet their next game will be fun, too". Hell, I didn't know they made anything besides Revenge of the Titans up until now.
And that's their problem. They're not doing enough to make themselves a well known brand. They've got the talent, but they're not playing the media game nearly enough. Tasteless though it can be sometimes, it's a dirty necessity if you want your brand to become well know.
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I don't think I'll repeat all the pointers to these figures being only Steam sales, (and they say HB sales are more), that they're getting twice as many $$ as they should expect from 1% of Steam users being Linux users. And that they whine excessively on their blog, that pays out their gamers as well as show their own financial failings.
So Star Citizen has raised over $50 million, and I'd be willing to wager that 1% of the backers use Linux. (Linux support is confirmed. Especially from the nature of kickstarter/crowdfunding population using Linux more than usual in the larger population.
So thats almost 6k backers using Linux with an average of 1% of 50 million ($500k). This is from a prediction of 1% of funding and 1% of backers as Linux sources (different people pledge different amounts). Build a game that everyone would like/love and is great, and I'm sure you'll succeed financially from Linux gamers (and gamers in general). Kind of like that Bastion game. ;P
So Star Citizen has raised over $50 million, and I'd be willing to wager that 1% of the backers use Linux. (Linux support is confirmed. Especially from the nature of kickstarter/crowdfunding population using Linux more than usual in the larger population.
So thats almost 6k backers using Linux with an average of 1% of 50 million ($500k). This is from a prediction of 1% of funding and 1% of backers as Linux sources (different people pledge different amounts). Build a game that everyone would like/love and is great, and I'm sure you'll succeed financially from Linux gamers (and gamers in general). Kind of like that Bastion game. ;P
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Oh, Puppy Games, I'm disappointed. This is why I don't actively try to learn more about the chef, so to speak. I regret taking a look at that blog after reading the post.
I, too, acquired the games in the bundle, and, as usual, I payed more than I needed to. I haven't bought recent Humble bundles, but when I do, I always try to give what I feel is fair price (after all, some of the money goes to charity).
I found their games to be overall ok. They use an arcade-style and implement it quite well. Though, between the games, the mechanics do seem a bit too similar at times. The thing they really could use is better user difficulty controls. I have some trouble enjoying the games because of their difficulty curves. For example, in Revenge of the Titans I would have loved options for increasing the time you get before aliens arrive, or an option for making the economy a bit less constraining. Also the registration prompts with in-game rewards feels a bit off (makes me think of web games).
Looking at the technical side of things, their games, so far, have been written in Java and make use of cross-platform libraries. This makes it rather trivial to port to Linux or even a more exotic platform like BSD. They have fixed it in later releases, but it is still worth mentioning that their earlier Humble Bundle releases had broken shell scripts that just exited immediately ( "if [ false ] then (do the wrong thing) elif ..." << why?). It may also be worth mention that they decided to leave the highly compressible assets uncompressed. I will say that the start time is slightly better uncompressed (I tested it), but it can make a big difference in space usage. All four games compressed take up less space than Ultratron uncompressed and just slightly more space than an uncompressed Revenge of the Titans. (On a side note, these games are what prompted me to think about on-demand decompression for games, similar to what emulators do with ROMs in zip files.)
I, too, acquired the games in the bundle, and, as usual, I payed more than I needed to. I haven't bought recent Humble bundles, but when I do, I always try to give what I feel is fair price (after all, some of the money goes to charity).
I found their games to be overall ok. They use an arcade-style and implement it quite well. Though, between the games, the mechanics do seem a bit too similar at times. The thing they really could use is better user difficulty controls. I have some trouble enjoying the games because of their difficulty curves. For example, in Revenge of the Titans I would have loved options for increasing the time you get before aliens arrive, or an option for making the economy a bit less constraining. Also the registration prompts with in-game rewards feels a bit off (makes me think of web games).
Looking at the technical side of things, their games, so far, have been written in Java and make use of cross-platform libraries. This makes it rather trivial to port to Linux or even a more exotic platform like BSD. They have fixed it in later releases, but it is still worth mentioning that their earlier Humble Bundle releases had broken shell scripts that just exited immediately ( "if [ false ] then (do the wrong thing) elif ..." << why?). It may also be worth mention that they decided to leave the highly compressible assets uncompressed. I will say that the start time is slightly better uncompressed (I tested it), but it can make a big difference in space usage. All four games compressed take up less space than Ultratron uncompressed and just slightly more space than an uncompressed Revenge of the Titans. (On a side note, these games are what prompted me to think about on-demand decompression for games, similar to what emulators do with ROMs in zip files.)
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I own all four of their games from a bundle. I would never have bought them off steam, they don't look that good. I tried all of them, and I was right they arn't.
So I let each game idle to drop the cards and uninstalled them for good.
Also 12k just from linux games on steam, is probably pretty damn good. There are better games
on steam for linux for free.
Hint: Make games that are 10x better, and you will get 10x more sales.
So I let each game idle to drop the cards and uninstalled them for good.
Also 12k just from linux games on steam, is probably pretty damn good. There are better games
on steam for linux for free.
Hint: Make games that are 10x better, and you will get 10x more sales.
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All platform sales comparisons are rubbish unless the game in question had a simultaneous release on all of them.
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greasedkeen Sep 9, 2014
These are the kind of games i wouldnt look twice at, simple as that.
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It's a shame because I really like their games. I've got all four of them. I don't really remember, but I got 2 of them with humble bundle and bought the other on steam. They're really fun games with very nice art style, and awesome music.
Revenge of the Titans is even one of the only linux games I've played before Steam on linux. They've shown awesome linux support so far. It's too bad they find the sales disappointing.
From what I've understood, the linux versions aren't their only problem since it seems that their games aren't profitable overall. As I've said, it's a shame...
Revenge of the Titans is even one of the only linux games I've played before Steam on linux. They've shown awesome linux support so far. It's too bad they find the sales disappointing.
From what I've understood, the linux versions aren't their only problem since it seems that their games aren't profitable overall. As I've said, it's a shame...
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