More Updates From Aspyr Media On Linux & Mac Progress For Civilization Beyond Earth

>working around issues like case sensitivity on the Linux side for filenames

What's more weird is the fact that programmers didn't use everything in lowercase from the start. They are pretty used to case sensitivity :O

Usually is not programmers fault, but artists, as they work on windows machines with horrendous software like 3dsmax and ps, usually they don't care filenames, if they did, world would be a better place.

Liam is back ! :D

I'm going to hold off purchasing this game since it will probably be like Civ 5 in that it kinda needs the expansion packs to be really good. Though technically I probably shouldn't buy this game (even though I'll most likely still get it) since it will ruin all my productivity which would be bad since I'm in college.

Also glad to have ya back Liam!

Quoting: Ignis>working around issues like case sensitivity on the Linux side for filenames

What's more weird is the fact that programmers didn't use everything in lowercase from the start. They are pretty used to case sensitivity :O

When I started programing on Linux I hated case sensitivity and I still hate it :). This was one of the many windows features I liked.

Quoting: ImantsWhen I started programing on Linux I hated case sensitivity and I still hate it :). This was one of the many windows features I liked.

I have a question and maybe you can answer it...
Why would anybody, if the OS forces him or not, would use different casing on disc and in code in the first place? I a) automatically use a pattern, like camel casing, pascal casing, all small, all large or whatever, and b) am probably to lazy most times to type it twice, so I'd copy and paste the file name. Both ways should ensure consistent casing quite naturally...

Imagine you know perfectly where your header is. You include it without using any completion. It works on Windows, but you may have missed a capital letter somewhere. That's for programming.

Then for the data made by the artists, on top on the fact that there are thousands of files, consider that the name could have changed during the process. An artist could have missed a capital letter and add it back later, but the code doesn't know, and since it still works in Windows, no one cares.

If you know you'll code for a case sensitive OS, it's eventually easier to use small letters and underscores ('_') all the time.

Quoting: GuestI have had these issues while porting a game to Linux and honestly it’s a pain. Now, if a game that needs porting has many wrongly-cased files, I’d probably write a code layer to remove the filesystem’s case-sensivity and be done with it.

I wonder if there is *any* point in having case-sensivity in a file system. I have never needed it and it has always been a nuisance.

I wonder if there's *any* point in being able to put spaces in a file names. Or hyphens, or periods, or the letters x y and z.
/sarcasm

I just don't understand how can an actual programmer think like you. You must obviously know that each character is based on an ascii value assigned in a table of characters, and character A has a different value than character a, and from point of the view of the computer they will always be two completely unrelated things, that just we happen to see some superficial connection between. You have to go out of your way to remove case sensitivity from software. Why do that, when you are removing functionality that way?

Not to mention that when I code, I use case sensitivity with a meaning a lot of the time. Single minor case letters are usually minor variables, like a loop counter or such. All upper case are usually constants of sorts. If I use "BUFFER" I know I am thinking of it as a constant I have set somewhere, and "buffer" would be just a variable, and if I have the variable doesn't exist, the compiler complains, instead of using the constant I forgot to have there.

Quoting: GuestYou’re missing the point. Case-insensivity does not mean you can’t include both upper and lower case letters in your file names.

I'd consider neither case sensitive file names nor case insensitive file names an important feature. People probably don't want to use file names only differing by case. On the other hand, I don't understand why OS/file system writers should be burdened by comparing file insensitive nor why people would _want_ to call a file by another casing that it really has got intentionally (I do understand the accidential case better now, though).

Using and comparing the same ASCII/UTF/whatever numbers should IMHO be the most natural way for every programmer (whatever system he prefers).

Quoting: GuestI have had these issues while porting a game to Linux and honestly it’s a pain. Now, if a game that needs porting has many wrongly-cased files, I’d probably write a code layer to remove the filesystem’s case-sensivity and be done with it.

I wonder if there is *any* point in having case-sensivity in a file system. I have never needed it and it has always been a nuisance.

Yes I did not see in case sensitive file system any point as only that programmers where lazy implementing it. Because it is much assayer to just compare byte by byte. The idea that you can have two files with same name but different case semis ridiculous to me. And it becomes such a bother when you are working in team and others are working in windows. I always tough that it is one of cons for Linux.

Quoting: Imants

Quoting: GuestI have had these issues while porting a game to Linux and honestly it’s a pain. Now, if a game that needs porting has many wrongly-cased files, I’d probably write a code layer to remove the filesystem’s case-sensivity and be done with it.

I wonder if there is *any* point in having case-sensivity in a file system. I have never needed it and it has always been a nuisance.

Yes I did not see in case sensitive file system any point as only that programmers where lazy implementing it. Because it is much assayer to just compare byte by byte. The idea that you can have two files with same name but different case semis ridiculous to me. And it becomes such a bother when you are working in team and others are working in windows. I always tough that it is one of cons for Linux.

Teams should be a total non issue. As soon as you have Teams involved then there should be coding standards and none of this stuff should rear it's ugly head ever again. It's very much comparable to what is typically imposed on the source code (and someone already brought up that).

Quoting: jedidiahlnx

Quoting: Imants

Quoting: GuestI have had these issues while porting a game to Linux and honestly it’s a pain. Now, if a game that needs porting has many wrongly-cased files, I’d probably write a code layer to remove the filesystem’s case-sensivity and be done with it.

I wonder if there is *any* point in having case-sensivity in a file system. I have never needed it and it has always been a nuisance.

Yes I did not see in case sensitive file system any point as only that programmers where lazy implementing it. Because it is much assayer to just compare byte by byte. The idea that you can have two files with same name but different case semis ridiculous to me. And it becomes such a bother when you are working in team and others are working in windows. I always tough that it is one of cons for Linux.

Teams should be a total non issue. As soon as you have Teams involved then there should be coding standards and none of this stuff should rear it's ugly head ever again. It's very much comparable to what is typically imposed on the source code (and someone already brought up that).

Standards are useless without control. And it is very hard to control because windows will not give you any error. And most coding is in windows and only porting happens in Linux. As such case sensitivity becomes annoying feature of Linux which mostly is hated because it does not have any useful meaning as just be annoying and create bugs. I daily check code quality and it is hard as it is I do not need extra work to check if all committed assets are in lower case.

Quoting: ImantsAs such case sensitivity becomes annoying feature of Linux which mostly is hated because it does not have any useful meaning as just be annoying and create bugs.

I would say, case insensitivity more and more becomes an annoying feature of Windows which mostly is hated because it does not have any useful meaning as just be annoying and create bugs.

Microsoft should not have done that. While it is very useful in file dialog boxes not to be forced to type the correct casing, on file system level I don't consider this a useful feature, and if Microsoft wouldn't have done it the way they did, it would feel just natural for everyone to use the matching names instead of some nearly matching ones.

Seriously, some Linux "features" make it stupidly difficult to work with. It seems to be on purpose, much like the Gnome developers who "know" better than everyone else.

NO normal user needs case sensitivity in their filesystem, and in most situations, it is a hindrance for adoption and porting on Linux due to the additional headaches introduced by it. For example, anyone who runs programs from WINE could see how annoying this can be.

It should be optional, like in HFS filesystems.

Quoting: HeimdallSeriously, some Linux "features" make it stupidly difficult to work with. It seems to be on purpose, much like the Gnome developers who "know" better than everyone else.

NO normal user needs case sensitivity in their filesystem, and in most situations, it is a hindrance for adoption and porting on Linux due to the additional headaches introduced by it. For example, anyone who runs programs from WINE could see how annoying this can be.

It should be optional, like in HFS filesystems.

Seriously: The problem stems from a real unnecessary "feature" of Windows that people unfortunately got used to.

The end user probably does not care at all for the case sensitivity of files. As long as he can load what he saved, which is up to the file open dialogs (those should select files case insensitive, at least as long as there's no case sensitive match), he's fine with case sensitivity as he's with case insensitivity.

Programers got obviously used to type file names in code according to the position of the moon, their fingers or whatever, instead of according to what the file is named. Which is quite odd, as every good programmer should be trained to do things not hush-hush, but right.

Yes, this all results in a porting problems - until programmers learnt to do this right as well. But no, this is neither hard to do nor a problem of Linux.

BTW, I'm not one of those who think that Linux is perfect in every aspect. But in file casing, Linux IMHO did a quite reasonable thing, and programmers should do the same. Which is, as already stated, even easier for them: They don't need to typ the file name twice in different casings, they can just copy and paste the name from one place to the other, which will automaticyll result in matching casing. It's that easy.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Eike…

So you’re advocating making things more difficult "just because". "People should do this", "Programmers should do that"… Yeah right. And then there’s reality.

Nope.

Calculating file names such that the casing can be done wrong is - obviously - more difficult than just comparing two strings. I don't know if you're programmer, but comparing strings straight is the most natural thing to do.

And I'm yet to read about the problems an end user would have with a file system (opposed to file open dialogs) that work this quite natural way.

Sorry, neither "Yeah right" nor "And then there’s reality" seem like arguments to me, while I have given some of them.

BTW, would you please cite where I've told people (not programmers) what they should do? Unfortunately, I cannot remember having written such things... I do remember having written about what end-users really need and what they don't need. Unfortunately, you didn't answer any of that...

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: ImantsAs such case sensitivity becomes annoying feature of Linux which mostly is hated because it does not have any useful meaning as just be annoying and create bugs.

I would say, case insensitivity more and more becomes an annoying feature of Windows which mostly is hated because it does not have any useful meaning as just be annoying and create bugs.

Microsoft should not have done that. While it is very useful in file dialog boxes not to be forced to type the correct casing, on file system level I don't consider this a useful feature, and if Microsoft wouldn't have done it the way they did, it would feel just natural for everyone to use the matching names instead of some nearly matching ones.

How can case insensitivity create bugs. I am programmer for about 8 years and only case sensitivity was causing bugs for me. Not only in file name but in string compression and in dynamics case sensitive languages like python where you accidentally name one variable in different case and all your program sops working. So I am now just curious how case insensitivity could create bugs?

Quoting: ImantsHow can case insensitivity create bugs. I am programmer for about 8 years and only case sensitivity was causing bugs for me. Not only in file name but in string compression and in dynamics case sensitive languages like python where you accidentally name one variable in different case and all your program sops working. So I am now just curious how case insensitivity could create bugs?

Neither case sensitivity nor insensitivity should create bugs on their own.
People not caring for rules of their system(s) create bugs.

I like the variable example: IMHO, the programmer has made a mistake, and the systems shows him that he did. He created a bug by not adhering to his system's rules. It is very easy to avoid and very easy to fix.

Of course, the file case sensitivity is a bit more complicated: People do adhere to their system's (Windows' ) rules, make the casing up out of thin air for whatever reason, and such create bugs when the stuff is ported to other systems. A thing that comes very natural - writing a string the same in two places (code and file system) - is not done, creating bugs. Non-portable code is less good code. Writing the same file name twice in different casings(*) is sub-optimal.

(*) Is "casing" the correct word?

Quoting: EikeNeither case sensitivity nor insensitivity should create bugs on their own.
People not caring for rules of their system(s) create bugs.

Yes people create bugs that I agree. But it is much easier to create bugs on case sensitive systems so thats why I do not like them. All in all if software is written in Linux then you will never have problems with cases sensetivity because you will fix them moment you misplace case. But if you wrote software in windows you will maybe find this bug much more later and it will become much more annoying to fix because people will make mistakes and you will be forced to fix.

Everyone please read The Case Against Insensitivity. TL;DR: case insensitive filesystems break very badly when you're not an american speaking english. The only reason windows is case insensitive is because Microsoft is stuck with it because of bad decisions made 30 years ago.