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Former Valve engineer Rich Geldreich has written up a blog post about the state of Linux Gaming. It's an interesting read that's for sure.
When talking about recent bigger game ports:
QuoteSadly, it's pretty clear that if you run these games on Linux your experience isn't going to be as good, and you'll be getting less "gaming value" vs. Windows. We're not talking about a bunch of little indy titles, these are big releases: Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel, Borderlands 2, Tropico 5, XCOM: Enemy Unknown, Sid Meier's Civilization V. My take is the devs doing these ports just aren't doing their best to optimize these releases for Linux and/or OpenGL.
Emphasis mine, and I don't agree with him on this. Obviously neither he, nor I have any proof either way that they are/aren't doing their best to optimise, but Aspyr & Feral making a living out of porting games to OpenGL, so why wouldn't they be trying to fix performance issues?
The performance has some way to go sure, but is that really the fault of Aspyr & Feral, or do the drivers still have ways to go to improve their performance? Who knows, I sure don't it goes way over my head at that point.
He does however note how hard it is to get performance on Linux equal to Windows:
QuoteI know it's possible for Linux ports to equal or outperform their Windows counterparts, but it's hard. At Valve we had all the driver devs at our beck and call and it was still very difficult to get the Source engine's perf. and stability to where it needed to be relative to Windows. (And this was with a ~8 year old engine - it must be even harder with more modern engines.) These devs are probably glad to just release anything at all given how alien it can be for Windows/Xbox devs to develop, debug, and ship stuff under Linux+OpenGL.
At least he is pointing out that fact that it's not easy to get decent OpenGL performance to match games on Windows, so he's not completely blasting Feral and Aspyr.
I agree with what he's saying about the Intel drivers 100%:
QuoteThe entire Intel driver situation remains in a ridiculous state. I know Intel means well and all but really, they can do better. (Are they afraid of pissing off MS? Or is this just big corp dysfunctionalism?) Valve is still paying LunarG to find and fix silly perf bugs in Intel's slow open source driver. Surely this can't be a sustainable way of developing a working driver?
No, it's not. Intel ideally needs to be doing this sort of work themselves to find bottlenecks and fix general performance issues in their own Linux drivers. I see this as a stopgap measure while Linux still isn't a focus for many people, and Intel included. This again goes into our marketshare issues, if we had a higher share then Intel would probably be doing it themselves.
His last point is a screen-shot of a slashdot comment where someone is basically saying that SteamOS is done, and that we will never get our hands on the Steam Controller. Their reasoning is that Microsoft snapped and allowed Alienware to create a Windows machine that boots to a Steam UI, and not Windows directly.
I agree that was a bit of a shocker, and I thought it wouldn't do SteamOS any good, but I think SteamOS hasn't even had a chance to have a go at it yet. SteamOS was delayed because Valve decided to revamp the controller again to get it right, so I think we should wait for it to be out before signalling its death.
Read his full blog post here.
What are your thoughts on it? Rich is good at stirring up the hornet's nest that's for sure, but just because he is a former Valve engineer doesn't mean he's going to be right on everything. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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GenericUser Nov 10, 2014
SteamOS success depends on whether Valve can deliver a improved experience over the PS4 or Xbox One.I think it has huge potential to make console gaming exciting again.But we should all wait before making assumptions on whether SteamOS will be a success or failure because the Steam Machines are not even out yet and SteamOS is still in Beta.
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Quoting: GuestQuoting: dsngjoeTrolling post is obvious.Quoting: subGo talk to AMD. They LAID off all of their Linux Driver Team in 2010 and expect the community to develop their driver for them. I have bought Nvidia ever since. Yes they are close source driver but guess what, every game I have tried works without issues. Nvidia close source drivers work with every distro so I dont know why people get so upset if its close source. As a gamer all I care is for my games to work on the OS I want to use.Quoting: mr-eggthe mis-information here..I can only speak for BL2 and I must say - from the perspective
Borderlands2 and Borderlands TPS are excellent ports.
of an AMD GPU user - it is NOT a good port.
Performance is abysmal compared to the same computer running BL2 on Win7.
Yes, they stated that at release time and even marked AMD "unsupported".
Still, *I* want an update on that matter. What's the reason for the bad performance?
Is it really just the well known "it's AMD drivers quality and we're waiting for a fix"?
When can we (AMD user) expect an update which *significantly* improves performance?
Is there are chance we can leave out the FUD from this and try some reasonable discussion?
How is this trolling?? He is expecting the developers of the game to find a solution for the current state that AMD drivers are in. I responded to why AMD drivers are horrible in Linux, why I use Nvidia only since 2010. I then voiced my opinion why i really don't care that the Nvidia Drivers are not build into the Kernel. I just want to play games.
Sorry if you feel I was trolling.
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Mohandevir Nov 10, 2014
Dropping SteamOs development after that much efforts and money invested feels kind of big.
My other point is can you thrust MS on the long run?
Personally, I don't. They have the right to implement the Big Picture mode in Windows 8, but what about windows 9 and 10? Don't forget that Steam Machines are in direct competition with XBone (even win8 with big picture).
What if MS decides to pull the plug, once Valve has dropped Linux support?
Valve will have to start all over again... What a waste of time! It doesn't make sense to me. Valve would still be dependant on the goodwill of MS. I would not be safe if I were Valve.
My other point is can you thrust MS on the long run?
Personally, I don't. They have the right to implement the Big Picture mode in Windows 8, but what about windows 9 and 10? Don't forget that Steam Machines are in direct competition with XBone (even win8 with big picture).
What if MS decides to pull the plug, once Valve has dropped Linux support?
Valve will have to start all over again... What a waste of time! It doesn't make sense to me. Valve would still be dependant on the goodwill of MS. I would not be safe if I were Valve.
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jedidiah_lnx Nov 10, 2014
I think he kind of misses the point of the whole "open source" thing. If Intel is dropping the ball with their driver with respect to games, then Valve can take care of business. In fact, this is THE classic use case that inspired the creation of the whole "Free Software" thing.
I don't feel "deprived" as a Linux user running Civ 5. I am not sure why I should feel bad about the current state of things.
If some marginal gaming benefit were enough to drive me to Windows, I wouldn't be a Linux user to begin with. I'm not sure how much such marginal advantages will matter once even current Windows users are able to leave that platform behind.
I don't feel "deprived" as a Linux user running Civ 5. I am not sure why I should feel bad about the current state of things.
If some marginal gaming benefit were enough to drive me to Windows, I wouldn't be a Linux user to begin with. I'm not sure how much such marginal advantages will matter once even current Windows users are able to leave that platform behind.
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jedidiah_lnx Nov 10, 2014
Quoting: GuestQuoting: dsngjoeTrolling post is obvious.Quoting: subGo talk to AMD. They LAID off all of their Linux Driver Team in 2010 and expect the community to develop their driver for them. I have bought Nvidia ever since. Yes they are close source driver but guess what, every game I have tried works without issues. Nvidia close source drivers work with every distro so I dont know why people get so upset if its close source. As a gamer all I care is for my games to work on the OS I want to use.Quoting: mr-eggthe mis-information here..I can only speak for BL2 and I must say - from the perspective
Borderlands2 and Borderlands TPS are excellent ports.
of an AMD GPU user - it is NOT a good port.
Performance is abysmal compared to the same computer running BL2 on Win7.
Yes, they stated that at release time and even marked AMD "unsupported".
Still, *I* want an update on that matter. What's the reason for the bad performance?
Is it really just the well known "it's AMD drivers quality and we're waiting for a fix"?
When can we (AMD user) expect an update which *significantly* improves performance?
Is there are chance we can leave out the FUD from this and try some reasonable discussion?
The reports from actual AMD users seem to be at best "mixed". That's not "FUD". That's just the way it is. That's why I have avoided their kit for years.
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Quoting: GuestQuoting: dsngjoeAMD did not lay off their driver team, they do not expect the community to develop drivers for them.Quoting: GuestHow is this trolling?? He is expecting the developers of the game to find a solution for the current state that AMD drivers are in. I responded to why AMD drivers are horrible in Linux, why I use Nvidia only since 2010. I then voiced my opinion why i really don't care that the Nvidia Drivers are not build into the Kernel. I just want to play games.Quoting: dsngjoeTrolling post is obvious.Quoting: subGo talk to AMD. They LAID off all of their Linux Driver Team in 2010 and expect the community to develop their driver for them. I have bought Nvidia ever since. Yes they are close source driver but guess what, every game I have tried works without issues. Nvidia close source drivers work with every distro so I dont know why people get so upset if its close source. As a gamer all I care is for my games to work on the OS I want to use.Quoting: mr-eggthe mis-information here..I can only speak for BL2 and I must say - from the perspective
Borderlands2 and Borderlands TPS are excellent ports.
of an AMD GPU user - it is NOT a good port.
Performance is abysmal compared to the same computer running BL2 on Win7.
Yes, they stated that at release time and even marked AMD "unsupported".
Still, *I* want an update on that matter. What's the reason for the bad performance?
Is it really just the well known "it's AMD drivers quality and we're waiting for a fix"?
When can we (AMD user) expect an update which *significantly* improves performance?
Is there are chance we can leave out the FUD from this and try some reasonable discussion?
Sorry if you feel I was trolling.
I am sorry they did. In 2012 they laid 25 people off that dealt with Linux Driver Primarily.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/09/amd-shutters-linux-support-lab-as-part-of-company-wide-layoffs/
In 2010 something else happen and thats when I quit supporting them. I grew up in Austin, so I always tried to support companies from my home town. Finally yes the open source drivers are BETTER then the close source drivers. Guess who pays to develop them? I can tell you it's not AMD.
Thanks
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Whether this guy is a bit butthurt or not is arguable. Most of his points are not though. Too much of what we are getting (AAA's anyways) are ports of games that are built on engine that were not originally designed to use OpenGL to render. The Borderlands games run twice as well for me in win as they do in Linux and I AM using Nvidia cards. Even if I run borderlands using my single monitor xorg_single.conf @ 1920x1080 in Linux I still only get about the same FPS as I get in windows running ALL THREE monitors @ 5760x1080. That is simply absurd.
Then we have the unity based games.. which they all suck in terms of performance for any platform for what actually end up on screen. The engine is simply not optimized very well for ANY platform.
I never really thought about the steam machines in the way he put it, but I kind of have to agree with him. Valve got what it wanted, to scare MS just a bit. Then they really shot themselves in the foot by delaying SteamOS claiming it was because of the controller.. everyone should be able to read between the lines and realize the controller was a scape goat. SteamOS STILL isn't ready for prime time. If it was I MIGHT believe they actually postponed it due to the controller.
Then there is the fact that we still don't really have any games to get people to purchase them anyways.. COD and Battlefield sell game consoles. Guns of Icarus (although fun as hell and my new addiction) and heavy bullets do not. I'd guess %75 of our games(or at least something comparable) can be had on mobile and usually for cheaper.
At the end of the day, most people don't care if their game console is running BSD, Linux, windows or fracking UnicornOS2000.. they just want to play the games they want to play and without fuss. Something Linux just does not give right now.
I have high hopes for wayland and these new gen game engine that are being built with Linux/OpenGL in mind... but anything AAA using them is still looking like Q3 2015 at least. Then theres wayland.. who knows when we will see mass adoption of that.. it won't be next year and possibly not even the year after that. The UE4 game demos still run far better for me in Windows than they do in Linux. The Linux ones got a bit better now being compiled with 4.5 but still slower FPS wise than in Windows.
Then we have the unity based games.. which they all suck in terms of performance for any platform for what actually end up on screen. The engine is simply not optimized very well for ANY platform.
I never really thought about the steam machines in the way he put it, but I kind of have to agree with him. Valve got what it wanted, to scare MS just a bit. Then they really shot themselves in the foot by delaying SteamOS claiming it was because of the controller.. everyone should be able to read between the lines and realize the controller was a scape goat. SteamOS STILL isn't ready for prime time. If it was I MIGHT believe they actually postponed it due to the controller.
Then there is the fact that we still don't really have any games to get people to purchase them anyways.. COD and Battlefield sell game consoles. Guns of Icarus (although fun as hell and my new addiction) and heavy bullets do not. I'd guess %75 of our games(or at least something comparable) can be had on mobile and usually for cheaper.
At the end of the day, most people don't care if their game console is running BSD, Linux, windows or fracking UnicornOS2000.. they just want to play the games they want to play and without fuss. Something Linux just does not give right now.
I have high hopes for wayland and these new gen game engine that are being built with Linux/OpenGL in mind... but anything AAA using them is still looking like Q3 2015 at least. Then theres wayland.. who knows when we will see mass adoption of that.. it won't be next year and possibly not even the year after that. The UE4 game demos still run far better for me in Windows than they do in Linux. The Linux ones got a bit better now being compiled with 4.5 but still slower FPS wise than in Windows.
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Quoting: BeamboomThis right here is what I talk about in my post above. Ferals work on Xcom is the exact opposite of garbage, it's one of the best ports to Linux so far, and to sit an spew out stuff like this on forums on the net... We're just in no position whatsoever to do so!A lot of people contact me after reading my comments about Feral. We talk and I recommend them contact Feral and ask them don't port any more games on linux. So, I don't need to argue with you here. Sorry, nothing personal. What I need is just leaving my comments and do what I do.
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Mohandevir Nov 10, 2014
Just thinking about it... The problem is not the fact that Steam doesn't run on Windows 8. It always did.
At the beginning of the SteamOS adventure, the major points that Valve put forward was the need to be independant from MS thecnologies because they feared that MS may decide to stop supporting the Steam client, in a future version of Windows. It's all about the windows store being in direct competition with Steam and D3D12 being a nightmare for developers.
Being able to replace Metro with Steam Big Picture doesn't change that in any way... I might be wrong...
At the beginning of the SteamOS adventure, the major points that Valve put forward was the need to be independant from MS thecnologies because they feared that MS may decide to stop supporting the Steam client, in a future version of Windows. It's all about the windows store being in direct competition with Steam and D3D12 being a nightmare for developers.
Being able to replace Metro with Steam Big Picture doesn't change that in any way... I might be wrong...
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Well, I may have an above the average gaming rig, but I am playing through the Witcher 2 right now, and don't jhave any problems to report. The same can be said about Civ 5, Xcom, but I understand that people with more modest rigs are feeling the pain.
I do hope that the drivers business gets sorted out, but as someone pointed out in an earlier comment, this is a revolution, and it will take time to grow.
Also, I would like to think we shouldn't dismiss entirely the comments of someone who was working on OpenGL like Rich. Luckily, there are still people working on this who are more optimistic as to the outcome of gaming on Linux. We have nearly 20% of the whole steam library accessible to us in 2 years, that is quite a feat by itself.
In March 2014, this was the state of affairs for games on Steam:
Linux games: 375
Mac games: 750
See! We now have as many games as Macs in March! Of scourse the number of Mac games has gone up too, but still, we should be happy about the way things are progressing.
Over and out!
I do hope that the drivers business gets sorted out, but as someone pointed out in an earlier comment, this is a revolution, and it will take time to grow.
Also, I would like to think we shouldn't dismiss entirely the comments of someone who was working on OpenGL like Rich. Luckily, there are still people working on this who are more optimistic as to the outcome of gaming on Linux. We have nearly 20% of the whole steam library accessible to us in 2 years, that is quite a feat by itself.
In March 2014, this was the state of affairs for games on Steam:
Linux games: 375
Mac games: 750
See! We now have as many games as Macs in March! Of scourse the number of Mac games has gone up too, but still, we should be happy about the way things are progressing.
Over and out!
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