Oh boy, I do love a good rant from a developer. This time it's the C4 engine dropping Linux support (honestly, how many of you have even heard of C4?).
Warning: It's a real rant.
Choice quote from their announcement
QuoteThis decision was made based on the disproportionate cost, both in terms of time and money, that we incur to support Linux relative to a very small return on our investment. This decision was also made to preserve my own sanity since my personal experiences with Linux have been extremely negative and have resulted in huge wastes of time that could have been better spent on more productive tasks. Terathon Software will no longer contribute to the popularity of an operating system that I personally view as inferior in design to both Windows and Mac OS X. Linux has proven to be Frankenstein OS assembled from a disparate array of barely functioning parts with horrible reliability and little potential for future improvement. Time that would have been spent on Linux support will now be used to strengthen our product on platforms with much greater viability.
The comments are just, amazing. One commenter provided this funny image:
And the developer responded with:
QuoteIt's my expert opinion, man.
Oh my, I mean there's being a good developer, and there's being a bit full of yourself.
He has also been dropping gems on his Twitter account:
Finished excision of Linux code from the C4 Engine. Negative 2008 lines. Good riddance.
— Eric Lengyel (@EricLengyel) January 10, 2015I have reached the point where I feel morally obligated to drop all support for Linux.
— Eric Lengyel (@EricLengyel) January 10, 2015Things like this are concerning though, and it is a real issue:
I love it when Ubuntu starts freezing for no good reason right before the login screen. That's high-quality engineering right there.
— Eric Lengyel (@EricLengyel) December 26, 2014I do wonder if it is a hardware or a driver issue, my last freezing issue turned out to be RAM that failed at specific things.
We don't often write about people ranting about Linux, and for one developer making a full bit of kit like C4 it can be time consuming, so we don't have much to say other than "oh well". We still have many more better engines around.
All hail Frankenstein, in Frankenstein we trust. Move along.
P.S. Please try to keep comments reasonable about this topic. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Quoting: LarianI'm only bothered by your use of the word "proper". I don't know what proper Linux experience is. This dev is telling the world about his Linux experience, and people are somehow offended by it. That doesn't seem terribly fair.
But tell me, is one's experience "proper" only if they've had a certain number of hours running Slackware? Or what if they've done the Ubuntu thing for a month after coming in from Arch? What if they've got UNIX experience with OSX, but haven't done the penguin? Or what if it happens that they're just trying to figure out a modern linux distro and have had nothing but headaches because the documentation for what they want to do sucks? I admit it would be different if he were lying through his teeth (and if so, release the hounds - and a squadron of lawyers), but I don't think that's the case.
What I mean is, it doesn't seem like he's giving Linux a chance. He seemed to have gone in with the wrong expectations, and without understanding Linux, which wouldn't be a problem if a person would be willing to be open minded, which doesn't seem to be the case for that guy.
I'm not offended by his opinion, I'm never offended. But it bothers me when people keep lashing out against Linux when they obviously have no idea what they are talking about.
If he even had proper technical expertise he would see it as a fools errand to install Linux from within Windows. You can try to put it any way you want, but he is blaming Ubuntu, because a testing installer isn't working. Mind you, the proper way to install Linux is always booting up a Linux live environment then doing the install.
Everyone where I work says that it's insane to try a Linux installer within Windows and except good results, and just two of us are Linux guys. Even my friends, who aren't very computer savvy think it sounds odd.
His reasons for bashing on Linux are completely unfounded. As for his engine not supporting LInux, well quite frankly, I couldn't care less. I've seen the buggy games using it, and how the engine is, and there are plenty other good alternatives out there, engines that do support Linux, with developers who act professionally, supporting Linux or not.
I'm going to continue going against people like this, because I'm sick of people calling Linux inferior (and stuff like that), when they obviously haven't gained enough knowledge of the system to make such a judgement. Hell, that just sounds like a Windows fan boy bashing Linux.
Quoting: LarianAnd should it turn out that his brand new hardware isn't properly supported (Liam's suggestion - and I agree), then that really is Linux's failing.
I agree. However, if he knew Linux he would know that not all new hardware is supported in Linux, which is an obvious flaw I agree, but this is evidence of his extreme lacking knowledge when it comes to Linux.
Quoting: LarianI like pie. And barbecue ... just not together.
Would be interesting to try though. :P
Even so, I personally wouldn't pick Ubuntu if you're going to judge Linux stability. :P
I'm running unstable Manjaro with 3.18 kernel, and god damn it's stable. :D
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Quoting: Larianlike pie. And barbecue ... just not together.
COMPLETELY OT!!!!!!
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/patrick-and-gina-neely/savory-bbq-pie-recipe.html
I have not made this, but your comment made me chuckle so I had to see if I could find it. It looks really similar to something an old girl friends mom would make and I loved it. Might make you rethink that statement.
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Quoting: http://www.terathon.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14058this thread has been moved to the private area of the forums.Seems like he no longer wishes to air his dirty laundry. So I wish him luck and will now stop following this story.
I think we can all agree this discussion now needs to focus on BBQ Pie! I for one will be suggesting it to the person who likes baking in my family, who happens to be visiting me tomorrow, yay. It's only fair as I was planning on making banana waffles.
For those that don't know, icculus has a blog with some great recipes. I've done his Balsamic Brussels Sprouts for the last two Christmases and everyone loves em.
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While I was doing a check for new kernels in the repo I saw the 319 kernel, and then I forgot what the fuzz was about.
319 kernel, weeee, weeeeee.
319 kernel, weeee, weeeeee.
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I personally see increasing issues installing linux as well, on ubuntu, on arch, even on older hardware wherr it used to work without issues I have more and especially manual steps to do (modeset for having an integrated 915 and a nvidia card - did not have to do that in the past, and seems to me like a regression in kms).
The out of the box installers get worse and worse, so I set up arch again (if end up struggling with things like that I can simply use arch again as well).
But the issues he writes about are mostly the non-issues of our current linux situation. And yes, by that I mean our unreliable graphics stack and never ending regressions in intel drivers etc. is a bigger issue.
But well, his decision. I guess it won't be much missed, I still think the reason is not a good one. Frustration on other things I would have understood very well.
The out of the box installers get worse and worse, so I set up arch again (if end up struggling with things like that I can simply use arch again as well).
But the issues he writes about are mostly the non-issues of our current linux situation. And yes, by that I mean our unreliable graphics stack and never ending regressions in intel drivers etc. is a bigger issue.
But well, his decision. I guess it won't be much missed, I still think the reason is not a good one. Frustration on other things I would have understood very well.
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LinuxGamesTV Jan 14, 2015
Quoting: AryvandaarWhile I was doing a check for new kernels in the repo I saw the 319 kernel, and then I forgot what the fuzz was about.
319 kernel, weeee, weeeeee.
Yes but it was only the 3.19-rc4. So you should not use this Kernel. The latest stable was 3.18.2.
The 3.18.2 i use, too.
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Quoting: BdMdesigNYes but it was only the 3.19-rc4. So you should not use this Kernel. The latest stable was 3.18.2.
The 3.18.2 i use, too.
I'm very well aware of the risks of it.
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Well, I'll probably get a lot of hate for saying this but he has some valid points though it is obviously mostly a rage rant. For one installing Linux is not the same as developing for it. That is like saying installing Wordpress is the same as writing scripts for it. One is substantially more complicated than the other :D.
Second, as far as gaming goes Windows is in fact the superior platform. I'm not going into why there are way better drivers and general hardware and software support, but the fact is that it is much easier for a developer to make Windows games. DirectX provides better performance than OpenGL, overall. Not much but it does.
And finally, it is completely understandable that a single developer or a small development company would drop Linux. If they're having problems getting the results they want with reasonable amount of time and effort, it is only natural to drop the 1% of the gaming market. Time IS money.
I get why most people got somewhat offended by this dev's comments but you can't deny there is some truth to them. Think about it. Linus Torvalds himself admits that he created the kernel to be the basis of a desktop OS, yet it currently holds about 70% of mobile, 70%+ of server and anywhere from 1.5 to say 4% of the desktop market. As much as I want to believe that it is "the man" pushing back the amazing open source OS, logic dictates that there has been something inherently wrong with Linux over the years, that continues to draw developers away.
PS Please be civilized, when you loudly disagree with me :D
Second, as far as gaming goes Windows is in fact the superior platform. I'm not going into why there are way better drivers and general hardware and software support, but the fact is that it is much easier for a developer to make Windows games. DirectX provides better performance than OpenGL, overall. Not much but it does.
And finally, it is completely understandable that a single developer or a small development company would drop Linux. If they're having problems getting the results they want with reasonable amount of time and effort, it is only natural to drop the 1% of the gaming market. Time IS money.
I get why most people got somewhat offended by this dev's comments but you can't deny there is some truth to them. Think about it. Linus Torvalds himself admits that he created the kernel to be the basis of a desktop OS, yet it currently holds about 70% of mobile, 70%+ of server and anywhere from 1.5 to say 4% of the desktop market. As much as I want to believe that it is "the man" pushing back the amazing open source OS, logic dictates that there has been something inherently wrong with Linux over the years, that continues to draw developers away.
PS Please be civilized, when you loudly disagree with me :D
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Quoting: maodzedunWell, I'll probably get a lot of hate for saying this but he has some valid points though it is obviously mostly a rage rant. For one installing Linux is not the same as developing for it. That is like saying installing Wordpress is the same as writing scripts for it. One is substantially more complicated than the other :D.
Yes, and that is (not) installing it, right? So if you can't manage the easier task, have a phd degree in software engineering and... well I stop there, because I don't know much about foreign universities and after that guy I really don't want to learn about them.
Quoting: maodzedunSecond, as far as gaming goes Windows is in fact the superior platform. I'm not going into why there are way better drivers and general hardware and software support, but the fact is that it is much easier for a developer to make Windows games. DirectX provides better performance than OpenGL, overall. Not much but it does.
What performance are we talking about? End-User-Gaming performance? No! http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/
This depends on the engine and your skills as a programmer. OpenGL often is faster and more advanced than Direct3D.
And here comes the "problem": DirectX is more than a Graphics-API. It also handles sound and many more tasks, that you need to do on your own or rely on another API/framework on Linux. (Like OpenAL etc.)
That's where and why the developer-performance under windows often is better used, because you basically use a "out of the box"-integrated system for many more tasks than only graphics.
Quoting: maodzedunAnd finally, it is completely understandable that a single developer or a small development company would drop Linux. If they're having problems getting the results they want with reasonable amount of time and effort, it is only natural to drop the 1% of the gaming market. Time IS money.
Absolutely, but a rant like that is... strange. I mean, he has a phd in computer science but is unable to install (!) Ubuntu? I mean, come on, where did he win his degree?
Also the level of his rant and the general attitude are... well (yes it's ironic if I say that, asking about his degree and where he won it just a sentence ago)
Quoting: maodzedunI get why most people got somewhat offended by this dev's comments but you can't deny there is some truth to them. Think about it. Linus Torvalds himself admits that he created the kernel to be the basis of a desktop OS, yet it currently holds about 70% of mobile, 70%+ of server and anywhere from 1.5 to say 4% of the desktop market. As much as I want to believe that it is "the man" pushing back the amazing open source OS, logic dictates that there has been something inherently wrong with Linux over the years, that continues to draw developers away.
There is a multitude of reasons for this. For example:
1) Many companies use(d) Windows, hence you had to develop for and probably on Windows, because of some more or less vendor-lock-in technologies and quirks of windows.
2) For computer games DirectX was a nice package that didn't only provide you with a graphics library like OpenGL does, but also with a couple of other things that enabled you to be more productive.
3) Because of the above and some more reasons Linux didn't have good graphics drivers until a couple of years back, so although OpenGL was great, it couldn't really compete.
Another good read, with sources: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX
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"This decision was made based on the disproportionate cost, both in terms of time and money, that we incur to support Linux relative to a very small return on our investment. "
If you only read the first sentence, it seems pretty reasonable. Unfortunately, he wrote a lot more sentences than that.
If you only read the first sentence, it seems pretty reasonable. Unfortunately, he wrote a lot more sentences than that.
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