C4 Engine Drops Linux Support, Developer Says Linux Is Inferior

@lucifertdark, He has given a little more info on forums:

it would periodically start failing to boot up. Either the boot loader would give me an error message, or the screen would just stay black without anything happening, or I would get to a solid purple screen that just froze. No mouse cursor, no response to keyboard input, nothing. This happens for no reason whatsoever. I never made any hardware changes or did anything out of the ordinary like tinkering with the hard drive partitions. It just spontaneously breaks. So I reinstall. Again and again, every time this happens.

I know what your thinking but…

And btw, I don't have a hardware problem. Don't even mention it. It's new, and it's high-end.

So, basically, his hard drive is failing, and he doesn't know nor understands symptoms. Shouldn't anyone tell him?

But, at least, he has hi-end :D

Okay two of your posts are direct shots @ Linux users for retaliating against someone who fire the first shot.

Yup, sure did. Because there's nothing to "retaliate" against. One guy had a table-flip-rage-quit moment when he finally had enough of having things break for him, and tons of people queued up to stamp on his nuts with combat boots. "Hey man," you may say, "I only kicked him once!" Uh huh, you and about a hundred other people. That's the problem. It makes us look bad. All of us. He needs help (and possibly derision - I won't be using the C4 engine).

Also, apt-get isn't without its issues either. Get caught in dependency hell ("Dependencies not satisfiable: X package depends upon Y, but it is not going to be installed" ... or my favorite "package depends upon foo 1.9 but the only thing in the repos is foo 1.9.0 so we're not going to install it" ), and I think anyone will see how someone could have a meltdown. Now you could use aptitude to do your conflict resolution, but I virtually guarantee that to start breaking things if used extensively.

You ever go onto a hardware (graphics) site and read all the NVIDIOTS vs AMshitD nonsence? Ever go into a game forum and listen to its users blat and wail (Windows users usually)? Apparently not, Linux "fan bois" aren't doing anything any other "fan bois" don't do.

This is what's called the appeal to popularity fallacy (argumentum ad populum) - everybody else is doing it, so it's okay for me to do it too. See, the thing is, it's not okay. I don't care what everybody else is doing. Unless of course you actually want to sound like a "Windows fan boi." And I think I speak for all of us when I say dear god, please don't.

The best part about bashing this guy is that ANYONE who has installed Ubuntu can officially talk down to this guy as that is his level of incompetence (apparently).

I've got $100 that says if I give anyone his machine and have them use his install method (wubi as I understand it), they're going to have exactly the same experience that he did. That's not incompetence, that's shit that doesn't work. I've installed Ubuntu dozens of times with no problems whatsoever. And then I had an experience that I wouldn't have believed if I didn't watch it happen. Contrary to popular belief, Linux does NOT play nice with everything out there yet, just the vast majority of it. Someone's personal experience successfully running installers that other people wrote entitles them to nothing other than working software.

And while we're at it, I noticed that someone brought up the fact that wubi isn't supported. I vote that it shouldn't be available for download if it's not supported. If you're going to offer a product as a viable solution to install your software and then orphan the thing, that's just bad policy. You're begging for bad PR and rants like this dev made.

WOW! What an 'expert' !

Phoronix got me interested in Solaris. But the automated install was borked.
As a result, I had to reinstall Ubuntu 14.04 LTS. No problems. I only had to
replug my wifi usb adapter back in, to get online. This happened yesterday!
Then I come here and read about some PH.D. nerd can't install linux at all.
I wish I had his pay check.

He claims it's not a hardware issue because it's new and high end? More stupid statments.

Guess what happens with new hardware and old hardware...they both fail.

If the freezing is random it sounds like a bad driver though, as i doubt he had the same issues with Windows on it. To claim it's not a hardware issue just because it's new and high end though is just idiotic.

I'm an Archer and I have problems with Ubuntu 14.04/14.10: for some reason the entire system gets installed under some kind of /@ folder instead of good old /.

Also, game development happens typically pretty close on the hardware when compared to what web servers do. So I can understand his pains in a way, that being said...

The way he lashed out was as unreasonable as how I lash out against Google and Microsoft, which are the two most evil companies in existence. Linux isn't a company (well, okay it kind of is Red Hat), it's a Free Software kernel. If he's got a problem with GNU/Linux, he's welcome to step in and send his own fixes to a maintainer.

I've got $100 that says if I give anyone his machine and have them use his install method (wubi as I understand it), they're going to have exactly the same experience that he did. That's not incompetence, that's shit that doesn't work.

I don't want to get into semantics, so I don't care if it's incompetence or not, but when I got into Linux I considered something like a wubi installer, but I decided to read more about it because installing a OS within a completely different OS seemed like a very bad idea.

Just because there is a lot of software out there that doesn't work without serious bugs doesn't mean that you should trust it blindly, or blame another piece of software because another one failed. That is basically what he's doing. He's using a third party installer and blames Linux, a kernel.

The very fact is that this guy has no idea how Linux OS works. He went in expecting it to work like Windows. Whatever this guy have to say about Linux is irrelevant, because he doesn't seem to have any proper experience with it.

It's what you teach your kids, you try the food before you decide if you like it or not.

wait.. so the guy is trying to install 14.04 on "new, high end" hardware? NO FREAKIN WONDER! The 14.04 live usb wont boot up right with my hardware (x99, maxwell) even with "nomodeset" to "bypass" the nouveau. 14.10 however does start up just fine with nomodeset during boot with its "newer" 3.16 kernel. I use it to image my OS drives about once a month.

When I swapped out all the 990FX/FX-8350 stuff on this machine to the new X99/5930k with Arch I didn't have to do ANYTHING but plug the drive in and boot it. Windows on the other hand.. ppfffttt.. it freaked out (as per usual).

Strange approach, but at lease with all the frustration and (apparently) negative feedback he is still attempting once again to resolve the problem.

Um no, I'm pretty sure he's not... He said he's installing Microsoft Windows 7, not a Linux-based operating system.

If you see my previous comment, he wants to use the Wubi.

At this time, Wubi does not work with Windows 8 default boot-loader. Thus at this point Wubi would not work on a new Windows 8 machine. You would be able to install, but not reboot into Ubuntu.

Ahh.. thanks N30N.. it is all making much more sense now. Win8 or no win8 I don't understand his insistence on using Wubi though.. I've had a UEFI install of both win8 and Xubuntu and then Win8 and Arch on a single SSD before.. was no trouble at all. I never made either UEFI bootloader aware of the other and simply used the "native" UEFI bootmenu (f11 on my machine during bootup) to select which Win Boot Loader when I needed to boot windows.. otherwise Linux was default and it never even shows grub.

I don't want to get into semantics, so I don't care if it's incompetence or not, but when I got into Linux I considered something like a wubi installer, but I decided to read more about it because installing a OS within a completely different OS seemed like a very bad idea.

I would rather not use wubi if I could help it either (and it's hard to imagine how I couldn't). However, something tells me he's having compatibility issues that aren't wubi related. And as always, I could be wrong.

Just because there is a lot of software out there that doesn't work without serious bugs doesn't mean that you should trust it blindly, or blame another piece of software because another one failed.

I think you meant "There's a lot of software out there that works without serious bugs", but I'm with you so far.

That is basically what he's doing. He's using a third party installer and blames Linux, a kernel.

Not with you anymore. :) I gather that his latest troubles with Linux are just that - the latest ones. He's specifically griped about apt-get, Ubuntu, and basically everything but the Nvidia drivers (which he praises). He's not talking about the kernel ... at least I don't think he is. He's talking about GNU/Linux being a giant pain in his nether regions and he's not willing to support it after this latest batch of issues (as an aside, ask me about how code::blocks borked an entire Ubuntu install for me, x86_64 and 32-bit compatibility libraries, PulseAudio being forced down my throat whilst breaking things for years, and my adventures in SDL2 sometime).

And yes, I think he threw a temper tantrum unbecoming an adult. But man, do I ever understand.

The very fact is that this guy has no idea how Linux OS works. He went in expecting it to work like Windows. Whatever this guy have to say about Linux is irrelevant, because he doesn't seem to have any proper experience with it.

I'm only bothered by your use of the word "proper". I don't know what proper Linux experience is. This dev is telling the world about his Linux experience, and people are somehow offended by it. That doesn't seem terribly fair.

But tell me, is one's experience "proper" only if they've had a certain number of hours running Slackware? Or what if they've done the Ubuntu thing for a month after coming in from Arch? What if they've got UNIX experience with OSX, but haven't done the penguin? Or what if it happens that they're just trying to figure out a modern linux distro and have had nothing but headaches because the documentation for what they want to do sucks? I admit it would be different if he were lying through his teeth (and if so, release the hounds - and a squadron of lawyers), but I don't think that's the case.

Keep in mind, I find his comments to be bombastic, overwrought with hyperbole, and just plain old ill-considered, but we, as a community, should fix what he's bitching about, not kick him around for daring to bitch in the first place. If it's broken for him, then it's bloody well broken. If wubi is the culprit, then the misbegotten thing shouldn't be available because it tears stuff up. And should it turn out that his brand new hardware isn't properly supported (Liam's suggestion - and I agree), then that really is Linux's failing.

It's what you teach your kids, you try the food before you decide if you like it or not.

I like pie. And barbecue ... just not together.

I'm only bothered by your use of the word "proper". I don't know what proper Linux experience is. This dev is telling the world about his Linux experience, and people are somehow offended by it. That doesn't seem terribly fair.

But tell me, is one's experience "proper" only if they've had a certain number of hours running Slackware? Or what if they've done the Ubuntu thing for a month after coming in from Arch? What if they've got UNIX experience with OSX, but haven't done the penguin? Or what if it happens that they're just trying to figure out a modern linux distro and have had nothing but headaches because the documentation for what they want to do sucks? I admit it would be different if he were lying through his teeth (and if so, release the hounds - and a squadron of lawyers), but I don't think that's the case.

What I mean is, it doesn't seem like he's giving Linux a chance. He seemed to have gone in with the wrong expectations, and without understanding Linux, which wouldn't be a problem if a person would be willing to be open minded, which doesn't seem to be the case for that guy.

I'm not offended by his opinion, I'm never offended. But it bothers me when people keep lashing out against Linux when they obviously have no idea what they are talking about.

If he even had proper technical expertise he would see it as a fools errand to install Linux from within Windows. You can try to put it any way you want, but he is blaming Ubuntu, because a testing installer isn't working. Mind you, the proper way to install Linux is always booting up a Linux live environment then doing the install.

Everyone where I work says that it's insane to try a Linux installer within Windows and except good results, and just two of us are Linux guys. Even my friends, who aren't very computer savvy think it sounds odd.

His reasons for bashing on Linux are completely unfounded. As for his engine not supporting LInux, well quite frankly, I couldn't care less. I've seen the buggy games using it, and how the engine is, and there are plenty other good alternatives out there, engines that do support Linux, with developers who act professionally, supporting Linux or not.

I'm going to continue going against people like this, because I'm sick of people calling Linux inferior (and stuff like that), when they obviously haven't gained enough knowledge of the system to make such a judgement. Hell, that just sounds like a Windows fan boy bashing Linux.

And should it turn out that his brand new hardware isn't properly supported (Liam's suggestion - and I agree), then that really is Linux's failing.

I agree. However, if he knew Linux he would know that not all new hardware is supported in Linux, which is an obvious flaw I agree, but this is evidence of his extreme lacking knowledge when it comes to Linux.

I like pie. And barbecue ... just not together.

Would be interesting to try though. :P

Even so, I personally wouldn't pick Ubuntu if you're going to judge Linux stability. :P

I'm running unstable Manjaro with 3.18 kernel, and god damn it's stable. :D

like pie. And barbecue ... just not together.

COMPLETELY OT!!!!!!

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/patrick-and-gina-neely/savory-bbq-pie-recipe.html

I have not made this, but your comment made me chuckle so I had to see if I could find it. It looks really similar to something an old girl friends mom would make and I loved it. Might make you rethink that statement.

this thread has been moved to the private area of the forums.

Seems like he no longer wishes to air his dirty laundry. So I wish him luck and will now stop following this story.

I think we can all agree this discussion now needs to focus on BBQ Pie! I for one will be suggesting it to the person who likes baking in my family, who happens to be visiting me tomorrow, yay. It's only fair as I was planning on making banana waffles.

For those that don't know, icculus has a blog with some great recipes. I've done his Balsamic Brussels Sprouts for the last two Christmases and everyone loves em.

While I was doing a check for new kernels in the repo I saw the 319 kernel, and then I forgot what the fuzz was about.

319 kernel, weeee, weeeeee.

I personally see increasing issues installing linux as well, on ubuntu, on arch, even on older hardware wherr it used to work without issues I have more and especially manual steps to do (modeset for having an integrated 915 and a nvidia card - did not have to do that in the past, and seems to me like a regression in kms).

The out of the box installers get worse and worse, so I set up arch again (if end up struggling with things like that I can simply use arch again as well).

But the issues he writes about are mostly the non-issues of our current linux situation. And yes, by that I mean our unreliable graphics stack and never ending regressions in intel drivers etc. is a bigger issue.

But well, his decision. I guess it won't be much missed, I still think the reason is not a good one. Frustration on other things I would have understood very well.

While I was doing a check for new kernels in the repo I saw the 319 kernel, and then I forgot what the fuzz was about.

319 kernel, weeee, weeeeee.

Yes but it was only the 3.19-rc4. So you should not use this Kernel. The latest stable was 3.18.2.

The 3.18.2 i use, too.

Yes but it was only the 3.19-rc4. So you should not use this Kernel. The latest stable was 3.18.2.

The 3.18.2 i use, too.

I'm very well aware of the risks of it.

Well, I'll probably get a lot of hate for saying this but he has some valid points though it is obviously mostly a rage rant. For one installing Linux is not the same as developing for it. That is like saying installing Wordpress is the same as writing scripts for it. One is substantially more complicated than the other :D.
Second, as far as gaming goes Windows is in fact the superior platform. I'm not going into why there are way better drivers and general hardware and software support, but the fact is that it is much easier for a developer to make Windows games. DirectX provides better performance than OpenGL, overall. Not much but it does.
And finally, it is completely understandable that a single developer or a small development company would drop Linux. If they're having problems getting the results they want with reasonable amount of time and effort, it is only natural to drop the 1% of the gaming market. Time IS money.
I get why most people got somewhat offended by this dev's comments but you can't deny there is some truth to them. Think about it. Linus Torvalds himself admits that he created the kernel to be the basis of a desktop OS, yet it currently holds about 70% of mobile, 70%+ of server and anywhere from 1.5 to say 4% of the desktop market. As much as I want to believe that it is "the man" pushing back the amazing open source OS, logic dictates that there has been something inherently wrong with Linux over the years, that continues to draw developers away.

PS Please be civilized, when you loudly disagree with me :D

Well, I'll probably get a lot of hate for saying this but he has some valid points though it is obviously mostly a rage rant. For one installing Linux is not the same as developing for it. That is like saying installing Wordpress is the same as writing scripts for it. One is substantially more complicated than the other :D.

Yes, and that is (not) installing it, right? So if you can't manage the easier task, have a phd degree in software engineering and... well I stop there, because I don't know much about foreign universities and after that guy I really don't want to learn about them.

Second, as far as gaming goes Windows is in fact the superior platform. I'm not going into why there are way better drivers and general hardware and software support, but the fact is that it is much easier for a developer to make Windows games. DirectX provides better performance than OpenGL, overall. Not much but it does.

What performance are we talking about? End-User-Gaming performance? No! http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

This depends on the engine and your skills as a programmer. OpenGL often is faster and more advanced than Direct3D.

And here comes the "problem": DirectX is more than a Graphics-API. It also handles sound and many more tasks, that you need to do on your own or rely on another API/framework on Linux. (Like OpenAL etc.)

That's where and why the developer-performance under windows often is better used, because you basically use a "out of the box"-integrated system for many more tasks than only graphics.

And finally, it is completely understandable that a single developer or a small development company would drop Linux. If they're having problems getting the results they want with reasonable amount of time and effort, it is only natural to drop the 1% of the gaming market. Time IS money.

Absolutely, but a rant like that is... strange. I mean, he has a phd in computer science but is unable to install (!) Ubuntu? I mean, come on, where did he win his degree?

Also the level of his rant and the general attitude are... well (yes it's ironic if I say that, asking about his degree and where he won it just a sentence ago)

I get why most people got somewhat offended by this dev's comments but you can't deny there is some truth to them. Think about it. Linus Torvalds himself admits that he created the kernel to be the basis of a desktop OS, yet it currently holds about 70% of mobile, 70%+ of server and anywhere from 1.5 to say 4% of the desktop market. As much as I want to believe that it is "the man" pushing back the amazing open source OS, logic dictates that there has been something inherently wrong with Linux over the years, that continues to draw developers away.

There is a multitude of reasons for this. For example:
1) Many companies use(d) Windows, hence you had to develop for and probably on Windows, because of some more or less vendor-lock-in technologies and quirks of windows.
2) For computer games DirectX was a nice package that didn't only provide you with a graphics library like OpenGL does, but also with a couple of other things that enabled you to be more productive.
3) Because of the above and some more reasons Linux didn't have good graphics drivers until a couple of years back, so although OpenGL was great, it couldn't really compete.

Another good read, with sources: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

"This decision was made based on the disproportionate cost, both in terms of time and money, that we incur to support Linux relative to a very small return on our investment. "

If you only read the first sentence, it seems pretty reasonable. Unfortunately, he wrote a lot more sentences than that.