Dota 2 Reborn Launches Without Linux Support

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: PeciskLet's stop act like traumatized kids everytime there's delay or something. There can be genue hold ups during development and it wouldn't make sense to hold up Windows version Dota 2 Reborn just because Source 2 OpenGL port have release blocker issues.

Just keep us in loop and be sure to ping devs now and then for updates. Let's be cool guys.

No one is acting like "traumatized kids", and I'm really not sure what in my article or in the comments here has even remotely hinted at that.

Sorry, it wasn't mean to this article alone, although I found it odd that you found it odd that it is released without waiting for Linux version :). I mean, despite what Valve exploits into Steam Machines are, they are not kidding about what their main platform at this point currently is. Despite that, all Valve comments indicate it is coming and it is just a matter of weeks, not years or multiple months.

But anyway, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. It just feels to me that every time similar article comes up we, Linux gamers, in general feel insecure about whole thing and it shows. Mac gamers are way more confident, and OS X is hardly a powerhouse for gaming. Steam survey shows Linux usage dropped? Linux is doomed! Some developer have problems with porting and deliver promises? Noooo...etc.

I wish we would be more hopeful and confident. Even if we turn out wrong in the end.

Quoting: stssCan someone put our fears to rest and say this makes sense from a development perspective on an engine that is supposed to be built from the bottom up with multiplatform support?

I'm sure the Windows-version of Source2 will run on DirectX again (just as Source). Of course, most Dota2-players are windows-users. So it does indeed make sense to bring out the BETA to a platform with the most potential testers. I'm not complaining as long as the native linux-version is available as soon as this BETA becomes the "current/stable" version :)

Quoting: MaelraneI wonder why they put in resources into a renderer that "only" runs on one out of three supported platforms. I mean, OpenGL does work under Windows (I must know, I have been creating an OpenGL-engine from scratch for an universitary course and it needed to run on Windows :/). Yes, it was and maybe is crippled compared to DX, because MS was (and is?!) trying to push their own technologies for their platform, but personally I see Valve in a position where they could say:

"Well, dear customers, it's MS that is crippling OpenGL, so it's not us whom you should blame!"

If I were in their position I'd just use OpenGL (and Vulkan) and spit on a DX-Renderer.

You know how gamers are, though... They'd blame VALVE, whatever the reason for the bad performance (or whatever) is... Valve shouldn't make this into a ideology thing. They should do what one expects from a game-developer: trying to deliver everyone with the best experience possible (:

Quoting: MaelraneI wonder why they put in resources into a renderer that "only" runs on one out of three supported platforms. I mean, OpenGL does work under Windows (I must know, I have been creating an OpenGL-engine from scratch for an universitary course and it needed to run on Windows :/). Yes, it was and maybe is crippled compared to DX, because MS was (and is?!) trying to push their own technologies for their platform, but personally I see Valve in a position where they could say:

"Well, dear customers, it's MS that is crippling OpenGL, so it's not us whom you should blame!"

It's not just windows pushing their own api forward for whatever reason or the devs being used to direct3d, it's also catalyst's opengl implementation underperforming there as well.

Regardless of whether it's a beta or not Valve is making another huge mistake here.

It's not about the few linux and mac users expecting to try the beta the moment it's out, it's the way they're promoting the following: If you want anything new and shiny then you'd better stay with windows.

I mean lets just face it. SteamOS has no advantage over windows at all at the moment and I wouldn't expect it to get any even after the release of steam machines. There's good reasoning behind the lack of exclusives and all, yet Valve doesn't even seem to be trying to polish it up.

No broadcast streaming, lack of early access beta support even for the games developed by the creators of the platform itself, lack of native versions for a lot of important games and even indies, worse performance on almost everything and especially for non-nvidia owners (perhaps intel+nvidia users get a few extra frames in the few games that actually have proper opengl support), no additional functionality (everything there is in the steam part of steamos can be used from the big picture mode) etc.

I can see a lot of things getting better with time though the more I think about it the less inclined am I to believe that valve should achieve their goal.

If you're that close to releasing your new platform and finally recreate your most successful title, which should be noted is already cross-platform, with an engine that's "supposed to target and prioritize greater/native support for your platform" without day1 support for it then you might as well denounce your plans for supporting the platform altogether.

"-But it's only a beta, they will beta test it for us"

Now, that's just denial, the very same thing windows elitists had been saying for gta-v.
If it's not that important then they might as well not release it yet rather than hurt their image that way. They could have waited for a cross-platform windows+mac+linux release in the "following weeks" and nobody would even bother. It's not as if any windows steam user knew about it a week ago. Why did they have to announce it? Because The International 2015 Compendiums obviously :/

"-SteamOS is not released yet. Dota2 is far from a sofa joystick game"

I think the answer to the above is too obvious to be written down itself. You can't just expect to start promoting your product after it hits production. If you feel like having it succeed then you have to convince people it's the best alternative even if it's not yet there which is far from what Valve has been doing lately.

If anything is going to kill SteamOS before the steam machines then that anything must have been Valve itself and the way it's dooming its own project by giving it a back seat over the most important features of the gaming service it's supposed to enrich.

Quoting: stssCan someone put our fears to rest and say this makes sense from a development perspective on an engine that is supposed to be built from the bottom up with multiplatform support?

Most likely they just faced last minute issues with OpenGL and decided to delay the Linux/Mac release and stick to the release date for Windows version, which I presume is using DirectX. Very normal in software development for last minute issues to arrise and cause delays.

I'm with Pecisk.

This is a long term move, don't mind the short term indicators.
Long term inverstors won't check their investments daily. That's the mindset IMO.


Let's be concerned about the indicators when important stuff is released (Steam Machines, Link, Vulkan, Hardware with linux preinstalled, etc.).

They said in one of their blog posts that source 2 is built from the ground up with OpenGL support (no wrappers and the like), so that's good news

Quoting: MaelraneI wonder why they put in resources into a renderer that "only" runs on one out of three supported platforms. I mean, OpenGL does work under Windows (I must know, I have been creating an OpenGL-engine from scratch for an universitary course and it needed to run on Windows :/).

It's pretty clear why Valve doing that. They care more about their games success rather than OpenGL / SteamOS. There nothing wrong about it because all effort they put into Linux is just long-term investment into products they already have.

SteamOS is not way to make money for them, but their insurance from Microsoft dumb moves.

Quoting: MaelraneYes, it was and maybe is crippled compared to DX, because MS was (and is?!) trying to push their own technologies for their platform, but personally I see Valve in a position where they could say:
"Well, dear customers, it's MS that is crippling OpenGL, so it's not us whom you should blame!"

Let's say fair MS never really crippled OpenGL since they're stopped slowing-down Khronos. They just ignored it completely for last 15 years and all bad things they did (e.g some Windows Update drivers lack OpenGL support) aren't that huge.

Valve able to fix OpenGL on Windows, but sadly they didn't even tried to do that so far. I left several thoughs on that in comments to post in Rich Geldreich's blog.

Though to fix it they have to put pressure on GPU vendors and it's may be harder that I think. Other issue that fixing GL on Windows and forcing users to update drivers may end up being bigger benefit to MS than Valve / Steam.

Quoting: stssCan someone put our fears to rest and say this makes sense from a development perspective on an engine that is supposed to be built from the bottom up with multiplatform support?

Sure: Linux port just isn't done yet / different team / more,harder work,more new stuff to learn for Vulkan ?

I mean:
MS-Team: "Hey Linux porting department, we are done, how about you guys ?"
Linux: "Mwea still working on this new Vulkan stuff."
MS-Team: "Well we ain't letting our users wait."
Or would you rather prefer everybody gets to wait equally ?

Quoting: QantouriscSure: Linux port just isn't done yet / different team / more,harder work,more new stuff to learn for Vulkan ?

I mean:
MS-Team: "Hey Linux porting department, we are done, how about you guys ?"
Linux: "Mwea still working on this new Vulkan stuff."
MS-Team: "Well we ain't letting our users wait."
Or would you rather prefer everybody gets to wait equally ?

The question wasn't why they would make that decision, the question is why they would be in that situation in the first place if the engine was developed to be multiplatform from the start.

But I think I already got my answer from others. It's not so much a windows/linux thing as it is a directX/OpenGL thing, if I understood them correctly.
I just hope once they get this sorted out in the "coming weeks" that they keep development on both APIs in sync with each other.