This is very sad to see from a previously very Linux friendly developer. Headlander from Double Fine Productions will not come to Linux due to their choice of graphics API.
The developer posted this on the Steam forum to clarify it:
QuotePlease excuse me if this isn't the best explanation, i'm not the most technical of folks here, but this is how i understand it:
Previously we've been using Direct X 9 for the windows version of our games, and deriving an opengl version from that to make a mac and linux port.
For Headlander we wanted to push the visuals as much as possible, and so are using the more up to date Direct X 11. Building an opengl version from that would require a rewrite of the whole system we use, and we just don't have the time / money / resources to do that.
Headlander is the last game that we will (probably) ever make on our internal Buddah engine as we are moving to Unreal from now onwards. So even if we did have the time and money etc, it doesn't make much sense to invest lots of work into this engine that we won't ever use again.
The good thing about using Unreal is that is has greater compatibility across win / mac / linux, so we should be able to better support Linux again in our future games - We've already confirmed that Psychonauts 2 will be on Linux.
Also: To make the Mac version, we're using Metal, which has no compatibility with Linux. Where we'd usually be able to make both of those versions together, this time we can't.
We're really sorry guys, we do try our hardest to support everyone, but it's not always possible!
Considering how cool the game looks, I am pretty sad about it myself.
I am more sad that they decided to lock themselves into DirectX and Metal, but not look at a higher OpenGL version to support what they needed which would have worked on all platforms (Vulkan probably came along too far into development for them).
So Metal is part of the issue here, and I fear this won't be the last time a Linux game is missed due to previously being easy to do from a Mac port. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Quoting: zilot>metalHaha, seriously? Double Fine using Vulkan instead of Metal would force Apple to support Vulkan? :D
I thought this API was a joke. Why the hell someone would support Apple idiocy instead of forcing them to implement vulkan ?
In case you weren't joking: Metal's not that bad as an API, even if it's completely unnecessary and everyone would be better off without it. And if there was any hope of Apple supporting Vulkan, MoltenVK would not be a thing.
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Psychonauts only good DF game i have played. Last DF game I will buy until they support Linux 100% of the time.
Last edited by on 28 July 2016 at 1:00 pm UTC
Last edited by on 28 July 2016 at 1:00 pm UTC
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Quoting: pythoneerHard to understand this decision. Just use Vulkan for all Platforms – End of story. For the Apple Hardware just use MoltenVK and you're done.
This.
Molten provide a way to "translate" Vulkan code to Metal code.
Such things isn't possible the other way around, I wonder why....
Don't you guys try to find a logical explanation for this move cause there isn't one (at least not a logical explanation that isn't shaddy AF).
Last edited by amonobeax on 28 July 2016 at 1:14 pm UTC
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Quoting: amonobeaxMolten provide a way to "translate" Vulkan code to Metal code.Of course it's possible. It's just a wrapper after all. Might be harder the other way around though, who knows. And why would anyone bother?
Such things isn't possible the other way around, I wonder why....
Quoting: amonobeaxDon't you guys try to find a logical explanation for this move cause there isn't one (at least not a logical explanation that isn't shaddy AF).Yeah, sure. Developers do this out of spite. Anyone who doesn't give us what we want must surely hate us. Whoa! My parents were never poor, they just never loved me! Sob...
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This is sad, but a good way for them to amend would be to open-source their Buddha engine, since it looks like they won't use it anymore. This way we could at least hope for community ports of headlander and some long awaited bugfixes in previous games.
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Quoting: tuubiQuoting: zilot>metalHaha, seriously? Double Fine using Vulkan instead of Metal would force Apple to support Vulkan? :D
I thought this API was a joke. Why the hell someone would support Apple idiocy instead of forcing them to implement vulkan ?
In case you weren't joking: Metal's not that bad as an API, even if it's completely unnecessary and everyone would be better off without it. And if there was any hope of Apple supporting Vulkan, MoltenVK would not be a thing.
You make a fair point of why they didn't use Vulkan, and I think most reasonable people would agree that using Vulkan would be a no go for a project that started before Vulkan was released and also a no go since they obviously want OSX compatibility, but why not go with OpenGL. Are there some magic in DirectX11 that is nigh impossible to implement in OpenGL?
If I had to guess the issue is that their devs have experience and knowledge of DirectX and not with OpenGL so that is the way they went.
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Sounds like they were stuck in between a rock and a hard place on this one.
Unfortunately I believe the newest Mac's are still running OpenGL 4.1 and if Blizzard's direction with Overwatch's launch is to be believed, there are missing features between OpenGL 4.1 and Directx11 quote:
“It was a result of not having all the technological support we needed to make the game viable on Mac systems.” says Kaplan, referring to Apple’s policies with OSX. “We have a real love and dedication for Mac players, they’ve been extremely loyal to us and we love giving them Blizzard games.
*Note this is the first recent Blizzard game to not support Mac due to technical reasons. I'm not a developer so I don't know any of the specifics regarding this, but since Overwatch also is the first Blizzard game to only support DirectX11 I'd say the reason lies with the differences in API features*
This pretty much negates using OpenGL if your plan is to push the newest features AND target Mac.
So now, no matter how they slice it, they have to use 2 API's minimum to cover as much of the market as they can. While it would have been nice for them to cover Windows/Linux with Vulkan and Mac with Metal, it sounds like the Vulkan spec wasn't out early enough for them to use.
So they are left with a choice to either support 3 different API's using an engine they plan on replacing in future games, or give up support for either Mac or Linux.
It's sad, but if Mac never allows some kind of Vulkan support or Directx12 gains a significant foothold in the industry, could this be a convenient excuse to shun Linux support for companies going forward due to the need of supporting 3 instead of 2 APIS?
Last edited by Selthus on 28 July 2016 at 11:41 pm UTC
Unfortunately I believe the newest Mac's are still running OpenGL 4.1 and if Blizzard's direction with Overwatch's launch is to be believed, there are missing features between OpenGL 4.1 and Directx11 quote:
“It was a result of not having all the technological support we needed to make the game viable on Mac systems.” says Kaplan, referring to Apple’s policies with OSX. “We have a real love and dedication for Mac players, they’ve been extremely loyal to us and we love giving them Blizzard games.
*Note this is the first recent Blizzard game to not support Mac due to technical reasons. I'm not a developer so I don't know any of the specifics regarding this, but since Overwatch also is the first Blizzard game to only support DirectX11 I'd say the reason lies with the differences in API features*
This pretty much negates using OpenGL if your plan is to push the newest features AND target Mac.
So now, no matter how they slice it, they have to use 2 API's minimum to cover as much of the market as they can. While it would have been nice for them to cover Windows/Linux with Vulkan and Mac with Metal, it sounds like the Vulkan spec wasn't out early enough for them to use.
So they are left with a choice to either support 3 different API's using an engine they plan on replacing in future games, or give up support for either Mac or Linux.
It's sad, but if Mac never allows some kind of Vulkan support or Directx12 gains a significant foothold in the industry, could this be a convenient excuse to shun Linux support for companies going forward due to the need of supporting 3 instead of 2 APIS?
Last edited by Selthus on 28 July 2016 at 11:41 pm UTC
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Quoting: SelthusIt's sad, but if Mac never allows some kind of Vulkan support or Directx12 gains a significant foothold in the industry, could this be a convenient excuse to shun Linux support for companies going forward due to the need of supporting 3 instead of 2 APIS?I haven't really done the research as I have no interest in Apple's products, but if I've understood correcly, MoltenVK is some sort of a source-level wrapper or translation layer, which means that even if they wanted to, Apple won't block games that use it under the hood. Not that they're against portability, seeing as most of the games available for Macs are not exclusive to their OS. DX12 won't go anywhere soon, but the Apple side of things seems pretty much solved.
Also, seeing as the API designs are extremely similar, porting a DX12 game to Vulkan should be slightly easier than porting to Metal, although this very much depends on the infrastructure. I don't see the point of going with DX12 of course if portability is a primary concern, but we all know how often it isn't.
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[email protected] Jul 31, 2016
So also no way to get it running with wine....
Last edited by [email protected] on 31 July 2016 at 6:13 am UTC
Last edited by [email protected] on 31 July 2016 at 6:13 am UTC
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