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Quite a number of people have asked me to talk about where to buy Linux games, how to make sure developers are supported and so on, so here I am.
First of all, I am fully aware there will likely be a small backlash in the comments on certain points. We do seem to have a small minority of very vocal people who like to boast about buying dirt cheap games from places like G2A, which makes me sad. We also have a few who like to advocate piracy, which is not only sad, but makes us look really bad in the eyes of developers. For the most part though, the people commenting here are fantastic to talk to.
To make this a point: I am not aiming to single anyone out, nor am I aiming to be hostile towards anyone. Read this as if we are all sitting around the table having a *insert favourite drink* and discussing the best way to support our platform. That’s what this is all about, everything I do is to help Linux gaming progress somehow.
To get this out of the way; I flat out do not recommend buying from places like G2A and Kinguin, Samsai already wrote about that here. Read that as a starting point if you please. Basically, don’t pre-order, don’t buy from random reseller stores.
While Samsai touched on some dubious stores in his linked post, I wanted to talk about Steam key resellers in general. I would completely steer clear of all of them, that’s the single safest option here. I actually already wrote about this before here.
As you can see, we’ve already written about all of this before in various places, so it’s time to bring it together under one roof. Instead of having the information scattered across various previous articles.
So, how do you know if your purchase is counted as a Linux sale? Most of the time it’s actually pretty simple. I’ve come up with some general guidelines and information for you, it’s your call on how to act upon it. I don’t want to seem like I am forcing anything on anyone, these are my personal thoughts as always. As someone who is a gamer at heart who firmly believes in supporting developers, as well as an editor.
Cheap games & Resellers
If you’re extremely strapped for cash, rather than go to some dubious key reseller, try to wait out for spring/summer/autumn/winter sales. Most major stores now do massive sales for each season like Steam and GOG do. Sales happen so often, you really have no reason to go to some random reseller where your purchase is not just likely to count for Windows, but feed the pocket of none of the actual developers or publishers.
Steam rather often does specific Publisher or Developer sales, weekend sales, free weekends to test games and more. You have so many chances to get legitimate cheap games. If money really is the issue, you’re just not being patient enough. You are in full control of your own wallet, be smart with it. There's nothing wrong with waiting for a sale, that's not the issue here at all.
I’ve seen so many people worry about how little Linux games sell in comparison to other platforms, and buying your games dirt cheap on reseller stores only does one thing: Weaken our sales statistics even more and reduce the possibility of future ports happening.
Seeing people say things about their financial situation, well, I have news for you, you’re not entitled to anything. It’s a shame if you can’t afford it (and I feel for you!), but why should that entitle you to pay sometimes 90% less than the rest of us from a store that supports no one but itself? You know what I do if I can’t afford something? I wait until I can, I don’t buy it for 90% off the price from the back of a truck. That’s essentially what key resellers do. Not all of them mind you, but most use dubious methods of acquiring their keys.
I admit there are reasons why you may want to seek other sources, like region locking, bad dubbing of the audio in certain versions and other reasons I haven’t thought of. I don’t mean to lump everyone under the same umbrella here. The same thing, sadly, still applies to you. You’re not entitled to it, it’s best to voice your opinion to the developer directly. By going to these questionable stores, you’re still possibly hurting Linux gaming.
I really hate the word “entitled”, it sounds terrible, but it’s an accurate way of portraying some of the attitudes I’ve seen. If this offends you somehow, you should realize it’s probably a perfect description of your attitude.
If you’re still going to buy cheap games from random places, remember who you’re supporting by doing it (certainly not the developer), and remember when developers and publishers talk down Linux ports, you’re probably at least a small part of the problem. This may sound a little unfair, but it’s the honest truth of the matter. A small amount of sales being cut down even smaller is good for no one.
To quote Edwin from Feral Interactive:
I've spoken to numerous other developers who all say a similar thing. I linked to this before, but Bundle Stars is a good example of this when I asked them if they have Linux keys or just Windows keys a while ago:
Steam - Buying directly from Steam on Linux is a Linux sale. That’s a fact, so long as the game has a playable Linux version. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have a SteamOS icon, if it has a Linux version, the developers will see a sale for it.
It doesn't really matter what operating system you buy your game on when it's directly on Steam, the main thing that counts is where it's first installed and played on for the first two weeks.
If you buy a key from elsewhere and don’t activate it until that particular game gets ported to Linux, that’s still a Windows sale. Why? Your key would have been generated before a Linux version existed, it would be part of a set of keys designed for a specific platform. The developer may see a Linux download, but not a Linux sale. I’ve had this confirmed from multiple different developers.
GOG - My GOG contacts have been unable to tell me how Linux games are tracked. I refuse to believe in 2016 a store as big as GOG don’t have something in place, and I don’t take their refusal to be open about it as a “we don’t track them”, but more as they are a business not wanting to divulge private business information.
It’s most likely that they track the number of downloads per-platform for each game.
I’ve tried asking developers about their stats from GOG, but no one is talking about it. It’s possible GOG specifically prohibits this.
Humble Bundle/Store - Humble as mentioned above in our quote from Edwin usually have keys for each platform.
Humble track the platform that was used to purchase each game, which is how they do their pie chart. So, if you buy it while on Linux, it’s generally a Linux purchase. The same applies as before though, if you buy it on Humble before it has a Linux version, prepare to be a Windows customer.
I am unsure how buying it from a mobile will count, as that’s never been mentioned anywhere. They most likely have a default set on it, which would probably be Windows for mobile sales. It’s possible they may wait to see what desktop system tries to redeem them, but we can’t be sure here.
Originally, Humble had a checkbox to tick which operating system to be counted for, but that hasn’t been around for some time. I did some test purchases today for researching this and never saw anything like it.
Itch.io (updated)- A statement from their head:
Games Republic - Their answer to me from last time:
Developers stores
One major way to support developers is to buy directly from their own store or website. Like the Feral store, Aspyr Media store, Virtual Programming store as some examples. That way, you are guaranteed to not only count as a Linux sale, but support developers directly with more of your money (Steam gets no cut then for example).
Final note, please try to remain respectful in the comments. There's no need to be rude or disrespectful to others. Disagreements are fine and part of life, insults and bad attitudes are not needed here.
With thanks to Samsai and Flesk for giving their input on this article. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
First of all, I am fully aware there will likely be a small backlash in the comments on certain points. We do seem to have a small minority of very vocal people who like to boast about buying dirt cheap games from places like G2A, which makes me sad. We also have a few who like to advocate piracy, which is not only sad, but makes us look really bad in the eyes of developers. For the most part though, the people commenting here are fantastic to talk to.
To make this a point: I am not aiming to single anyone out, nor am I aiming to be hostile towards anyone. Read this as if we are all sitting around the table having a *insert favourite drink* and discussing the best way to support our platform. That’s what this is all about, everything I do is to help Linux gaming progress somehow.
To get this out of the way; I flat out do not recommend buying from places like G2A and Kinguin, Samsai already wrote about that here. Read that as a starting point if you please. Basically, don’t pre-order, don’t buy from random reseller stores.
While Samsai touched on some dubious stores in his linked post, I wanted to talk about Steam key resellers in general. I would completely steer clear of all of them, that’s the single safest option here. I actually already wrote about this before here.
As you can see, we’ve already written about all of this before in various places, so it’s time to bring it together under one roof. Instead of having the information scattered across various previous articles.
So, how do you know if your purchase is counted as a Linux sale? Most of the time it’s actually pretty simple. I’ve come up with some general guidelines and information for you, it’s your call on how to act upon it. I don’t want to seem like I am forcing anything on anyone, these are my personal thoughts as always. As someone who is a gamer at heart who firmly believes in supporting developers, as well as an editor.
Cheap games & Resellers
If you’re extremely strapped for cash, rather than go to some dubious key reseller, try to wait out for spring/summer/autumn/winter sales. Most major stores now do massive sales for each season like Steam and GOG do. Sales happen so often, you really have no reason to go to some random reseller where your purchase is not just likely to count for Windows, but feed the pocket of none of the actual developers or publishers.
Steam rather often does specific Publisher or Developer sales, weekend sales, free weekends to test games and more. You have so many chances to get legitimate cheap games. If money really is the issue, you’re just not being patient enough. You are in full control of your own wallet, be smart with it. There's nothing wrong with waiting for a sale, that's not the issue here at all.
I’ve seen so many people worry about how little Linux games sell in comparison to other platforms, and buying your games dirt cheap on reseller stores only does one thing: Weaken our sales statistics even more and reduce the possibility of future ports happening.
Seeing people say things about their financial situation, well, I have news for you, you’re not entitled to anything. It’s a shame if you can’t afford it (and I feel for you!), but why should that entitle you to pay sometimes 90% less than the rest of us from a store that supports no one but itself? You know what I do if I can’t afford something? I wait until I can, I don’t buy it for 90% off the price from the back of a truck. That’s essentially what key resellers do. Not all of them mind you, but most use dubious methods of acquiring their keys.
I admit there are reasons why you may want to seek other sources, like region locking, bad dubbing of the audio in certain versions and other reasons I haven’t thought of. I don’t mean to lump everyone under the same umbrella here. The same thing, sadly, still applies to you. You’re not entitled to it, it’s best to voice your opinion to the developer directly. By going to these questionable stores, you’re still possibly hurting Linux gaming.
I really hate the word “entitled”, it sounds terrible, but it’s an accurate way of portraying some of the attitudes I’ve seen. If this offends you somehow, you should realize it’s probably a perfect description of your attitude.
If you’re still going to buy cheap games from random places, remember who you’re supporting by doing it (certainly not the developer), and remember when developers and publishers talk down Linux ports, you’re probably at least a small part of the problem. This may sound a little unfair, but it’s the honest truth of the matter. A small amount of sales being cut down even smaller is good for no one.
To quote Edwin from Feral Interactive:
QuoteIf you buy from a third party and they don't explicitly say they are selling Linux or Mac keys then you've bought a Windows key. Bundle-star for example sell Windows keys.
Doesn't matter where you play the game on third party stores the sale is based on the steam keys they have purchased. Humble Bundle for example have a set of keys tagged as Windows, Mac and Linux and hand out the correct ones based on your platform so that the correct platform sale is recorded.
I've spoken to numerous other developers who all say a similar thing. I linked to this before, but Bundle Stars is a good example of this when I asked them if they have Linux keys or just Windows keys a while ago:
Bundle StarsHi Liam, Sorry for the delay in responding over the weekend. I can confirm that we have not been sent new keys for Shadow of Mordor since the Linux release and only Windows is mentioned on the page. However, where we promote games as being available for Linux, these will all activate correctly for the platform.
Steam - Buying directly from Steam on Linux is a Linux sale. That’s a fact, so long as the game has a playable Linux version. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have a SteamOS icon, if it has a Linux version, the developers will see a sale for it.
It doesn't really matter what operating system you buy your game on when it's directly on Steam, the main thing that counts is where it's first installed and played on for the first two weeks.
If you buy a key from elsewhere and don’t activate it until that particular game gets ported to Linux, that’s still a Windows sale. Why? Your key would have been generated before a Linux version existed, it would be part of a set of keys designed for a specific platform. The developer may see a Linux download, but not a Linux sale. I’ve had this confirmed from multiple different developers.
GOG - My GOG contacts have been unable to tell me how Linux games are tracked. I refuse to believe in 2016 a store as big as GOG don’t have something in place, and I don’t take their refusal to be open about it as a “we don’t track them”, but more as they are a business not wanting to divulge private business information.
It’s most likely that they track the number of downloads per-platform for each game.
I’ve tried asking developers about their stats from GOG, but no one is talking about it. It’s possible GOG specifically prohibits this.
Humble Bundle/Store - Humble as mentioned above in our quote from Edwin usually have keys for each platform.
Humble track the platform that was used to purchase each game, which is how they do their pie chart. So, if you buy it while on Linux, it’s generally a Linux purchase. The same applies as before though, if you buy it on Humble before it has a Linux version, prepare to be a Windows customer.
I am unsure how buying it from a mobile will count, as that’s never been mentioned anywhere. They most likely have a default set on it, which would probably be Windows for mobile sales. It’s possible they may wait to see what desktop system tries to redeem them, but we can’t be sure here.
Originally, Humble had a checkbox to tick which operating system to be counted for, but that hasn’t been around for some time. I did some test purchases today for researching this and never saw anything like it.
Itch.io (updated)- A statement from their head:
QuoteWe don't have a metric to associated purchases to a platform. But we do monitor what files are downloaded with a purchase so we could calculate what purchases result in Linux downloads.
Games Republic - Their answer to me from last time:
QuoteWe work directly with developers & online retailers like Nexway, which work directly with publishers too. We got that information on our About Us page: https://gamesrepublic.com/service/about-us.html
We sell only legitimate and authorized keys received directly from the publishers
Developers stores
One major way to support developers is to buy directly from their own store or website. Like the Feral store, Aspyr Media store, Virtual Programming store as some examples. That way, you are guaranteed to not only count as a Linux sale, but support developers directly with more of your money (Steam gets no cut then for example).
Final note, please try to remain respectful in the comments. There's no need to be rude or disrespectful to others. Disagreements are fine and part of life, insults and bad attitudes are not needed here.
With thanks to Samsai and Flesk for giving their input on this article. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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The comments on this article are closed.
Quoting: emphyQuoting: Colombo...Quicky post, since I don't have much time now.
I understand my own examples quite well, thank you ^_^
Sure, there are cookbooks for which you must pay, but there's no one stopping you from sharing the recipes contained therein. Same for theatre groups performing out of copyright plays. Still, more than enough people are prepared to pay for (quite high quality) versions to be able to fund the production.
The general availability of culture has absolutely nothing to do with the ability of the authors to charge for their work. But once people have culture in their hands/minds/computer, the author's control of it is a legal construct. The simple reality is that, without some stasi-level surveillance, people will share products of the mind. The implication of people owning ideas is restricting peoples freedom to share it, FORCING them to stop doing what has been a pillar to cultural development for thousands of years.
If someone wants to invest a lot of work and money into creation of new product, he will do it only in situation where he thinks he will get his investment back.
You can do it by various way, one way is to have idealized moral society. Another way is to have state subsidized creation of stuff. Another way is to provide creator some sort of control over his product.
First one is realm of fiction and not stable state anyway. The second is huge baggage of problems as well (how do you decide who is worth subsidizing?), it can partially work, but not fully. So third is our only realistic choice.
Now, every control can be broken. It depends on necessary effort and gains. (however, some take this as challenge...)
For customer, it is need for product, its quality, accessibility, price, some tiny bit of morality and huge deal of feeling of fairness. You put all of these into decision function and you could predict, given enough data, how will customer decide.
Obviously, there are various disparities in power and this was one of reasons behind revolution that happened a few years back. New ways of distribution, rise of youtubers and so on clearly changed pattern of customer decision making as suddenly there was plenty of information about quality, accessibility steeply risen thanks to steam and so on.
So to sum it up, I kind of agree with you about freedom and sharing of information. Problem is, we do not live in ideal world and creators must be motivated to create, this is much more obvious in the case of huge investments, like movies, games or damn science (i.e., for GMO or drugs, you must do crapload of testing to show that product is safe, lab experiments, then studies on living objects, comparison with other drugs..., I would rather have something protected for 5-10 years, but with known chemicals, then not protected, but secret (and sold) or not at all).
So although I agree that we must share, we must also protect, not for centuries, but enough so that prior investment has a chance of returning, so that investors can invest again and we can go forward. And some stuff subsidized (like science, schools for everyone and so on).
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Quoting: scaineBut this article isn't about piracy. It's about buying dodgy keys, knowing that they're dodgy, knowing that the porting house won't see a penny, then complaining that this article made them feel guilty for it. That is sheer entitlement, and that's what made me laugh. The straight up rationalisation the "boo hoo" of it all. By all means, buy from where you like, that's your prerogative. But don't spout on public forums about how doing so is your right (as a human??) because you're entitled to experience everything that's ever made... because <mumble> culture <something>.Just needed to quote this again to give it some more light, because never has a hammer hit the nail on the head so damn hard.
People complaining about seeing this sort of stuff on GOL, it's an Editorial (an opinion piece) on my own website where it seems the vast majority actually agree with me on it, go figure.
This sort of stuff will be posted on GOL in future, because I personally feel it's important to highlight, especially given the recent spate of increased pro-piracy comments on GOL which to be frank, piss me right off. This is a pro-legal website, that should have been clear since day-1 of us opening given our content.
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Quoting: liamdaweJust needed to quote this again to give it some more light, because never has a hammer hit the nail on the head so damn hard.
...
This sort of stuff will be posted on GOL in future, because I personally feel it's important to highlight, especially given the recent spate of increased pro-piracy comments on GOL which to be frank, piss me right off. This is a pro-legal website, that should have been clear since day-1 of us opening given our content.
Sorry for contributing to the derailment ^_^. Personally, I love your so-called off-topic articles even if I may not always agree (shocking, I know)
Pro-legal I don't care for so much, but I love it the site is pro-making-sure-the-devs-receive-money-so-they-get-rewarded-for-making-great-games, which is, after all, the reason those laws were created in the first place.
Last edited by emphy on 7 October 2016 at 9:25 am UTC
1 Likes, Who?
buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: liamdaweQuoting: scaineBut this article isn't about piracy. It's about buying dodgy keys, knowing that they're dodgy, knowing that the porting house won't see a penny, then complaining that this article made them feel guilty for it. That is sheer entitlement, and that's what made me laugh. The straight up rationalisation the "boo hoo" of it all. By all means, buy from where you like, that's your prerogative. But don't spout on public forums about how doing so is your right (as a human??) because you're entitled to experience everything that's ever made... because <mumble> culture <something>.Just needed to quote this again to give it some more light, because never has a hammer hit the nail on the head so damn hard. <SNIP>
It simply echoes what you wrote in your article. Using "arguments" like "that's just how it is" or "it's just a fact" or "you say something else but I am right so buzz off", even "this is my site and look, a lot of people repeat my baseless "it's a fact, you are just entitlement sillies" statement over and over, thus it is true", it would have been better to just disable commenting for this article - you do not seem like you want to read or respond to anything but people agreeing with you. Perhaps a like-button on your articles would be better than letting people actually write, if you are just looking for hurrah's.
QuoteThis sort of stuff will be posted on GOL in future, because I personally feel it's important to highlight, especially given the recent spate of increased pro-piracy comments on GOL which to be frank, piss me right off. This is a pro-legal website, that should have been clear since day-1 of us opening given our content.
You bashing random people does not make this a pro-legal website, it just makes it a personal blog. You would never see that kind of editorial on a professional pro-whatever site, you would perhaps hear Donald Trump say that kind of thing, and sure, you do get the same kind of "HELL YEAH UGH UGH UGH WE RULE THEY SUCK" sentiments from people who agree with you that he gets. But it is a crappy way of furthering a cause in the long term, I think. What was the purpose, exactly, with this article? What is it that is "important to highlight"? That you think people who buy from g2a are scum, or information about how to buy games in the interest of your money going to the right people?
As an aside, many sites ban/forbid discussions of piracy, which I think is fine - it is important to be seen as responsible and legal.
Edit: removed repetition.
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 9:42 am UTC
3 Likes, Who?
Quoting: emphyQuoting: scaineQuoting: Colomboscaine: Piracy is not stealing. Stealing is taking from someone. Piracy is piracy. Its like listening to musician who is playing behind fence for audience that paid for it. Musican isn't directly losing anything, audience who paid for it isn't directly losing anything...
But in the musician example above, we're not talking about piggy-backing a live performance, a closer example would be a copied CD. You're paying nothing for a perfect copy of what other people did pay for. You are stealing. This can't be debated. It just is.
Sure, there is nuance, but when people start talking about digital vs physical, that's just rationalisation for the fact that pirates deprive artists of revenue. Weren't going to buy it anyway, hence not a sale? Largely false, because if you weren't going to buy it anyway, then why did you pay peanuts for a pirate copy? Don't think it's worth the asking price? Wait for a sale, or debate that price.
But piracy is stealing. Fact.
Erm, no. Piracy is copyright infringement: breaking a legally enforced monopoly on copying.
There is something to be said for calling it stealing when copies are being sold, since in that case you can demonstrate the buyer was prepared to pay. Even then, the one buying it is not stealing, but buying 'stolen goods', and the seller is the one who is stealing.
I... think we're agreeing on everything except some semantics on the names. So... good? Unless you're trying to shift blame somehow - the buyer might not be technically stealing, but that doesn't absolve them from the crime. Unless they genuinely didn't know? So I guess this argument is valid for the likes of the g2a sites. Buyers there might not realise that the keys are stolen. This article, however, to get back on point is making it clear that if you did know that the keys are dodgy, you don't get to cry victim about high prices, or wanting to support the porting house.
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Quoting: buenaventuraIf you don't want people expressing opinions that differ from yours, to the extent that you cannot even respond, then just ban them, I would say, or disable commenting.Says the guy who seems to systematically ignore anything he doesn't agree with. You've made your point clear, and also made it clear that you don't even read what the rest of us write.
Here's a little TL;DR: You say all games are culture, and that you're entitled to all culture, because that's your right as a human being. You use a wide definition of culture as a catch-all, and flash the declaration of human rights as if it had anything to do with anything. Others have responded many times that there's tons of culture that is free, but not all artists (or in this case studios with wages to pay, whose employees include some artists) are willing to work for free, or in hope of donations.
If you want things to change, you've got to fix the system, not subvert it. There's the difference between activism and self-entitlement.
Sorry about my tone, but you're pissing a lot of people off with your attitude. No use getting in a huff. I know you're looking for a ban to "prove you are right", but that would only prove how annoyed Liam is with you, nothing else.
3 Likes, Who?
Quoting: buenaventuraIt simply echoes what you wrote in your article. Using "arguments" like "that's just how it is" or "it's just a fact" or "you say something else but I am right so buzz off", even "this is my site and look, a lot of people repeat my baseless "it's a fact, you are just entitlement sillies" statement over and over, thus it is true", it would have been better to just disable commenting for this article - you do not seem like you want to read or respond to anything but people agreeing with you. Perhaps a like-button on your articles would be better than letting people actually write, if you are just looking for hurrah's.
The article has generated lots of views - many of your comments have had likes, as have many of the counter arguments. Gaming On Linux has never been "in it for the hurrah's". The near-complete lack of advertising should attest to that.
There's some nice irony that you're getting upset because not everyone agrees with you, so you're attacking the editorial and website... because you don't agree with it.
BTW, the idea about liking an article is a good one. I don't think it would stifle discussion either. Right now, the only gauge to an article's popularity is the Views count at the top of the article. That's useful, but people like yourself are engaging with this article despite (or because of) not agreeing with it. A like button would be cool gauge of support for a given article.
1 Likes, Who?
Quoting: scaine...
I... think we're agreeing on everything except some semantics on the names.
Probably not, but then again we are not talking about everything there is to say on the topic ^_~ . Sorry, I get really triggered on this topic, probably because of those annoying unskippable anti-piracy ads, the ones with "you wouldn't steal..."
I definitely agree that buying at shady sites is a bad thing (even if is legal). The chances of the dev. not seeing a single cent (even indirectly) of the purchase, or even being harmed by chargebacks from credit card fraud, are simply too high.
Last edited by emphy on 7 October 2016 at 10:08 am UTC
1 Likes, Who?
@buenaventura, the problem here is that you repeatedly use the same argument too. Your arguments are based on a fantasy world that just doesn't exist.
I'm also not telling anyone to "buzz off" as you put it, if that was the case, the comments would have been closed the moment the article was put up in a case of "my opinion is what matters" when it doesn't, it's my opinion. I am genuinely interested in others views, so I can attempt to understand why people feel utterly entitled to the hard work of others for free without giving them anything in return. I am still, sadly, not any wiser about it. It's the same repeating argument from the same types of people longing for a different world to what we live in.
It would be great if everyone could be paid fairly, and people gain access to things without paying if they have zero spare money, but that is not the world we will live when it comes to a hobby like computer games which people are really not entitled to what-so-ever.
I don't remember who it was, but someone used my Patreon as a counter-argument to my own article here. Claiming I would make everyone pay $5 to read the content based on my views. That's insanity, we're talking about two completely different mediums, you can't throw all funding types into the same basket for different things. Not to mention how dumb an idea that is for a niche website like GOL.
I'm also not telling anyone to "buzz off" as you put it, if that was the case, the comments would have been closed the moment the article was put up in a case of "my opinion is what matters" when it doesn't, it's my opinion. I am genuinely interested in others views, so I can attempt to understand why people feel utterly entitled to the hard work of others for free without giving them anything in return. I am still, sadly, not any wiser about it. It's the same repeating argument from the same types of people longing for a different world to what we live in.
It would be great if everyone could be paid fairly, and people gain access to things without paying if they have zero spare money, but that is not the world we will live when it comes to a hobby like computer games which people are really not entitled to what-so-ever.
I don't remember who it was, but someone used my Patreon as a counter-argument to my own article here. Claiming I would make everyone pay $5 to read the content based on my views. That's insanity, we're talking about two completely different mediums, you can't throw all funding types into the same basket for different things. Not to mention how dumb an idea that is for a niche website like GOL.
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Quoting: liamdawe... to a hobby like computer games ...:O
(sorry for taking it completely out of context, but :O )
Last edited by emphy on 7 October 2016 at 10:20 am UTC
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: tuubiThe reason I am ignoring some comments is that I want to stay on point - I want to discuss (with Liam) the issue of whether his article was effective, as described above. I can answer again to your critique now, but then I dont feel like it anymore, sorry. I did enter into too wide a discussion, but at least I am trying to get out again.Quoting: buenaventuraIf you don't want people expressing opinions that differ from yours, to the extent that you cannot even respond, then just ban them, I would say, or disable commenting.Says the guy who seems to systematically ignore anything he doesn't agree with. You've made your point clear, and also made it clear that you don't even read what the rest of us write.
Quoting: tuubiYou say all games are culture, and that you're entitled to all culture, because that's your right as a human being. You use a wide definition of culture as a catch-all, and flash the declaration of human rights as if it had anything to do with anything.That is essentially right yes, I consider games culture, and I think that the UDHR is relevant - I believe that the goal of systems of pricing culture (private and public) should be to ensure that finance is a little a barrier as possible to all culture, while funding culture producers as equally as possible to support the widest variety of products and views/pespectives in them. I am not sure about the word "entitled", but what I mean is that I think that is a fair goal to have in mind.
Quoting: tuubiOthers have responded many times that there's tons of culture that is free, but not all artists (or in this case studios with wages to pay, whose employees include some artists) are willing to work for free, or in hope of donations.Yes, isn't it funny that people keep repeating that as if it is an argument or something. Also, at day the sun is up, while at night, it is down.
Quoting: tuubiIf you want things to change, you've got to fix the system, not subvert it. There's the difference between activism and self-entitlement.
It subverts the cause of linux gaming to shoehorn in irrelevant bashing of some people in a otherwise needed article about how to ensure money goes to the right people, simply because we have to wade through some paragraphs of Liam's feelings about some people to get to the actual information.
Quoting: tuubiSorry about my tone, but you're pissing a lot of people off with your attitude. No use getting in a huff. I know you're looking for a ban to "prove you are right", but that would only prove how annoyed Liam is with you, nothing else.
I've tried to stay calm, and I am definately not looking for a ban - I am in fact talking to Liam privately as well, and we are both equally interested in keeping the debate on point. Why would anyone be pissed? Is it upsetting to hear the sentiment that we it is desirable to be able to pay what we want/can for games, if possible while ensuring producers livelihood? Humble bundle and itch must be very distressing then.
Quoting: scaineThe article has generated lots of views - many of your comments have had likes, as have many of the counter arguments. Gaming On Linux has never been "in it for the hurrah's". The near-complete lack of advertising should attest to that.
True, but I was referring to this specific article and even more specific, to the paragraph Liam just posted (and which I quoted I believe). I dragged the sentiment he expressed to its logical conclusion in order to show that it is silly - I use it as a rhetorical device to prove a point, I do not mean to imply that Liam is thinking this way, but that his sentiment leads to that.
Quoting: scaineThere's some nice irony that you're getting upset because not everyone agrees with you, so you're attacking the editorial and website... because you don't agree with it.
I am not attacking, I am critiquing his approach, his METHOD, not him. I do agree with him in most respects, except for this particular part of his method.
Edit: typos and some additions.
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 10:30 am UTC
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: liamdaweI don't remember who it was, but someone used my Patreon as a counter-argument to my own article here. Claiming I would make everyone pay $5 to read the content based on my views. That's insanity, we're talking about two completely different mediums, you can't throw all funding types into the same basket for different things. Not to mention how dumb an idea that is for a niche website like GOL.
I feel I responded pretty well to the rest of your post in my previous one, but this part I want to answer specifically. Dragged to its logical conclusion, the idea that any pricing system that lets people pay what they want is inherently unfair, would result in not using patreon, but instead imposing a fixed price for everyone. As you said, that would be stupid, and that is the point - it is unwise to air such unreflected sentiments that when dragged to their conclusion, essentially invalidates much of the linux gaming market. And you would get fewer visitors, further limiting your advocacy potential - that would be stupid.
To me we are discussing two different matters:
1. FUNDING OF CULTURE: Whether choose-your-own-price models like humblebundle, patreon etc. are a good way to fund culture, specifically games
2. METHOD: Whether saying that you dislike a kind of person, in an editorial that is ostensibly about helping people make informed choices is, tactically and strategically, a smart method, given that the goal is to further linux gaming and money going to the right person.
That g2a etc. are bad we all agree upon, essentially. What is interesting, is nr 2.
Edit: I should add, that issue 1. I am not so interested in debating, as I've tried to make clear. I am to old for internet ideology discussions.
Edit2: I of course admit that I did drift into nr 1. quite a bit, but I also think that I've made my points there, so it is relatively irrelevant whether I continue. Sorry.
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 10:26 am UTC
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Mountain Man Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: minus9Fortunately morality isn't a bool, it's a long long int. Otherwise the world would be a puritanical hell-hole where people would be condemned for all eternity for taping an LP from a friend when they were 12.For the record, this is a logical fallacy known as "ad hominem tu quoque", also called "against the man".
I presume the more pious members of this discussion have been strict adherents of the thousands of pages of copyright law for their entire lives as no one likes a hypocrite.
In other words, you're arguing against the person making argument and not against the argument itself. That is to say that if someone condemns immoral or unethical behavior that they themselves are guilty of, that makes them a hypocrite, but it doesn't make them wrong to condemn the behavior.
Last edited by Mountain Man on 7 October 2016 at 10:50 am UTC
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voyager2102 
Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: liamdawe@buenaventura, the problem here is that you repeatedly use the same argument too. Your arguments are based on a fantasy world that just doesn't exist.
Liam, I think that if you'd broaden your view a little bit you'd see that most of the arguments he mentioned are maybe not so popular in the type of country you live in but are vastly more popular in other areas and certainly are not based on a fantasy world that does not exist. Philosophers have talked about them and other cultures might have tried a few of them with more or less success.
Quoting: liamdaweIt would be great if everyone could be paid fairly, and people gain access to things without paying if they have zero spare money, but that is not the world we will live when it comes to a hobby like computer games which people are really not entitled to what-so-ever.Hmm... let's see... Germany's GEMA is basically a cultural flat rate for music consumption. Music is a hobby, isn't it? It also coexists with music being sold and it seems to be working pretty well.
The "access to things without paying" thing might not be true for your world (I don't actually know where you live) but in other parts of the world people have access to things like housing, food, water, even telephones and TV plus many other things if they cannot afford them - provided by the rest of the people. And that's not just in communist countries but e.g. in the market economies of the EU, or in Canada, to name just a few. And culture is considered in some of those countries to be a universal access good. That is also why we have copyright laws - not only to protect the creative creators' rights to what they create but also to ensure that society as a whole participates (i.e. limitation of copyright period, fair use clauses, registration, personal excemptions, etc., etc.)
Let's not discount new/foreign ideas just on the basis of them being "unthinkable" in the environment you grew up. Universal healthcare used to be unthinkable... so was travelling to the moon... the earth not being the center of the world... I guess you get the drift ;)
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: Mountain ManFor the record, this is a logical fallacy known as "ad hominem tu quoque", also called "against the man".
In other words, you're arguing against the person making argument and not against the argument itself. That is to say that if someone condemns immoral or unethical behavior that they themselves are guilty of, that makes them a hypocrite, but it doesn't make them wrong to condemn the behavior.
And this sort of sums up the "you are just silly entitlement people" argument that came from the article and was reiterated over and over.
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 11:14 am UTC
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voyager2102 Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: scaineBut in the musician example above, we're not talking about piggy-backing a live performance, a closer example would be a copied CD. You're paying nothing for a perfect copy of what other people did pay for. You are stealing. This can't be debated. It just is.
Wow... another one of these judgmental phrases so devoid of any actual fact, yet, oozing with sense of mission! You are moralizing. You just are ;)
Counter example of what you say: In Germany copyright law says that you can take a CD that you bought, bring it to a friend and even make a copy for him as long as you don't charge for it.
The law explicitly allows this and here you come and say it's stealing an "that is just so"! Wake up! We should adopt the Jolly Roger as our new flag!!!1!
Quoting: scaineSure, there is nuance, but when people start talking about digital vs physical, that's just rationalisation for the fact that pirates deprive artists of revenue. Weren't going to buy it anyway, hence not a sale? Largely false, because if you weren't going to buy it anyway, then why did you pay peanuts for a pirate copy? Don't think it's worth the asking price? Wait for a sale, or debate that price.
But piracy is stealing. Fact.
Anybody who discounts that there is a severe difference between a physical and a digital good can't be taken serious, I'm sorry. Of course there is a fundamental difference between me taking an apple from a tree and me copying the technique that the apple farmer uses to keep the birds off of the apple tree. In one case I dimish what he has and in the second case I do not unless I take away from his customer pool.
Repeating previously used arguments gets boring after a while and the discussion is not new. I don't mind you leaning one way or the other but you are a bit quick to state the term fact where none is to be seen. If you really don't see this then please tell me that you don't and I will go to the trouble of disecting your example.
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Mountain Man Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: buenaventuraThis suggests to me that you have not actually understand any of the arguments presented against your position.Quoting: Mountain ManFor the record, this is a logical fallacy known as "ad hominem tu quoque", also called "against the man".And this sort of sums up the "you are just silly entitlement people" argument that came from the article and was reiterated over and over.
In other words, you're arguing against the person making argument and not against the argument itself. That is to say that if someone condemns immoral or unethical behavior that they themselves are guilty of, that makes them a hypocrite, but it doesn't make them wrong to condemn the behavior.
I think the worst of your argument is arbitrarily declaring that video games are culture, and that culture should be free. So if you want to justify taking something for free, all you have to do is convince yourself that it's "culturally enriching"? How far are you willing to stretch that logic? Do you sneak into a movie theater without paying? What about the local opera, or a sporting event? Help yourself to a "free" book from the corner store? Take your neighbor's car without permission because driving a vehicle is part of the cultural experience? Go through your friend's CD collection and take what you want without asking? Enter a stranger's home without being invited to watch television with his family?
Are you beginning to understand just how silly your argument is?
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: Mountain ManI think the worst of your argument is arbitrarily declaring that video games are culture, and that culture should be free. So if you want to justify taking something for free, all you have to do is convince yourself that it's "culturally enriching"? How far are you willing to stretch that logic? Do you sneak into a movie theater without paying? What about the local opera, or a sporting event? Help yourself to a "free" book from the corner store? Take your neighbor's car without permission because driving a vehicle is part of the cultural experience? Go through your friend's CD collection and take what you want without asking? Enter a stranger's home without being invited to watch television with his family?
? I can just stay at games being culture (what do you think that it is? o__O) comparable to literature, movies, and theater for example. And that yes, it is good if culture is accessible to as many people as possible - it is good for society, learning, equality, diversity etc. This sentiment is at least where I live entirely mainstream - we have libraries where you can borrow books for free, there are free concerts etc. It is also extensively researched as an academic subject, and extensively promoted in law.
To jump to the conclusion that I therefore should "take" things from others or something like that, is strange though. I can, for example, choose to buy a game that is available from multiple stores, from a particular store that lets me choose my own price (like itch.io), to tip the creators and know that my money arrived in their hands. That would be an action in accordance with the belief that culture should be available to all and preferably priced in accordance to what a person can afford.
However to take a book at a corner store, that would be not be in accordance with that belief, it would not help in any way I can see at least, and would be wrong on other grounds - I would be stealing. To buy something from g2a, that would not be helpful or in accordance with that belief either, but not as wrong on other grounds, however certainly fishy.
Believing that culture should be available to as many people as possible is, believe it or not, not particularly uncommon, and in fact not equal to stealing (wtf?). Not even by logical extension, things do not become free or available regardless of finance to people because someone steal them...
Quoting: Mountain Man[
I think the worst of your argument is arbitrarily declaring that video games are culture, and that culture should be free. <SNIP>
Are you beginning to understand just how silly your argument is?
Uh, are you from like 200 years ago or something? Since when is it silly to say, that culture should be free? I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue against the notion that it would be good (given that artists were compensated properly) if most culture was widely available without barriers, to further understanding, peace etc. Are you also opposed to libraries?
Edit: thinking about it, you seem to think that if one holds a belief, one will act as if that belief is fully realized already... Or what? Who the hell does that? If you believe that we should ban cars in city centres for environmental reasons, would you walk on the streets pretending that there were no cars there to further that cause? :D
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 1:20 pm UTC
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Quoting: voyager2102Quoting: liamdawe@buenaventura, the problem here is that you repeatedly use the same argument too. Your arguments are based on a fantasy world that just doesn't exist.
Liam, I think that if you'd broaden your view a little bit you'd see that most of the arguments he mentioned are maybe not so popular in the type of country you live in but are vastly more popular in other areas and certainly are not based on a fantasy world that does not exist. Philosophers have talked about them and other cultures might have tried a few of them with more or less success.
Quoting: liamdaweIt would be great if everyone could be paid fairly, and people gain access to things without paying if they have zero spare money, but that is not the world we will live when it comes to a hobby like computer games which people are really not entitled to what-so-ever.Hmm... let's see... Germany's GEMA is basically a cultural flat rate for music consumption. Music is a hobby, isn't it? It also coexists with music being sold and it seems to be working pretty well.
The "access to things without paying" thing might not be true for your world (I don't actually know where you live) but in other parts of the world people have access to things like housing, food, water, even telephones and TV plus many other things if they cannot afford them - provided by the rest of the people. And that's not just in communist countries but e.g. in the market economies of the EU, or in Canada, to name just a few. And culture is considered in some of those countries to be a universal access good. That is also why we have copyright laws - not only to protect the creative creators' rights to what they create but also to ensure that society as a whole participates (i.e. limitation of copyright period, fair use clauses, registration, personal excemptions, etc., etc.)
Let's not discount new/foreign ideas just on the basis of them being "unthinkable" in the environment you grew up. Universal healthcare used to be unthinkable... so was travelling to the moon... the earth not being the center of the world... I guess you get the drift ;)
Okay then, humour me. In what country is it acceptable to take a computer game that you're legally supposed to pay for, without paying for it? The digital vs hard copy for computer games is a pathetic strawman argument used by pirates to try to sway people towards not paying for others hard work. The fact is, if a developer wanted people to not pay, they wouldn't put a price tag on their works. If you argue against that, then I don't consider your opinion to hold very well. People need to earn money to live, it's as simple as that.
Let's remove all other things like water and food which are necessities to live. You cannot lump those together to make this argument, a hobby is completely different.
I have a pretty broad view already, but the counter-arguments I've all seen so far, to repeat myself, are from people wanting a world that as far as I am aware, does not exist.
I'm not talking about things that could be or should be, neither is anyone else, we are laying out our arguments for things as they are in the world right now.
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Quoting: voyager2102Quoting: scaineBut in the musician example above, we're not talking about piggy-backing a live performance, a closer example would be a copied CD. You're paying nothing for a perfect copy of what other people did pay for. You are stealing. This can't be debated. It just is.
Wow... another one of these judgmental phrases so devoid of any actual fact, yet, oozing with sense of mission! You are moralizing. You just are ;)
Counter example of what you say: In Germany copyright law says that you can take a CD that you bought, bring it to a friend and even make a copy for him as long as you don't charge for it.
The law explicitly allows this and here you come and say it's stealing an "that is just so"! Wake up! We should adopt the Jolly Roger as our new flag!!!1!
Interesting! But a bit of googling seems to completely disagree with your example of German Law. Can you point me in the right direction? What I've found appears to suggest that German law is very close to UK law - you can make copies for your own use, but copyright law is still in effect - that is, only the author of the works is allowed to redistribute/reproduce it for anything other than personal backup purposes. There appeared to be a debate around this in Germany around 2002/3, but nothing I can find suggests that the law changed significantly.
I looked at a few sites, but this is the cleanest: http://limegreenip.hoganlovells.com/article/33/copyrights-copyright-protection-germany
Bottom line, ask yourself how you'd feel about selling one hundred copies of your work, only to discover 100 thousand such copies were being enjoyed by the masses? I'd be pissed off. How about you?
It's true - I really don't understand anyway who defends piracy. At all. Happy to be "educated" however, but that education must address not just laws and jurisdictions, but more importantly how that defender-of-piracy would justify and accept living on the street if they were the artist with no income and not the pirate.
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