Quite a number of people have asked me to talk about where to buy Linux games, how to make sure developers are supported and so on, so here I am.
First of all, I am fully aware there will likely be a small backlash in the comments on certain points. We do seem to have a small minority of very vocal people who like to boast about buying dirt cheap games from places like G2A, which makes me sad. We also have a few who like to advocate piracy, which is not only sad, but makes us look really bad in the eyes of developers. For the most part though, the people commenting here are fantastic to talk to.
To make this a point: I am not aiming to single anyone out, nor am I aiming to be hostile towards anyone. Read this as if we are all sitting around the table having a *insert favourite drink* and discussing the best way to support our platform. That’s what this is all about, everything I do is to help Linux gaming progress somehow.
To get this out of the way; I flat out do not recommend buying from places like G2A and Kinguin, Samsai already wrote about that here. Read that as a starting point if you please. Basically, don’t pre-order, don’t buy from random reseller stores.
While Samsai touched on some dubious stores in his linked post, I wanted to talk about Steam key resellers in general. I would completely steer clear of all of them, that’s the single safest option here. I actually already wrote about this before here.
As you can see, we’ve already written about all of this before in various places, so it’s time to bring it together under one roof. Instead of having the information scattered across various previous articles.
So, how do you know if your purchase is counted as a Linux sale? Most of the time it’s actually pretty simple. I’ve come up with some general guidelines and information for you, it’s your call on how to act upon it. I don’t want to seem like I am forcing anything on anyone, these are my personal thoughts as always. As someone who is a gamer at heart who firmly believes in supporting developers, as well as an editor.
Cheap games & Resellers
If you’re extremely strapped for cash, rather than go to some dubious key reseller, try to wait out for spring/summer/autumn/winter sales. Most major stores now do massive sales for each season like Steam and GOG do. Sales happen so often, you really have no reason to go to some random reseller where your purchase is not just likely to count for Windows, but feed the pocket of none of the actual developers or publishers.
Steam rather often does specific Publisher or Developer sales, weekend sales, free weekends to test games and more. You have so many chances to get legitimate cheap games. If money really is the issue, you’re just not being patient enough. You are in full control of your own wallet, be smart with it. There's nothing wrong with waiting for a sale, that's not the issue here at all.
I’ve seen so many people worry about how little Linux games sell in comparison to other platforms, and buying your games dirt cheap on reseller stores only does one thing: Weaken our sales statistics even more and reduce the possibility of future ports happening.
Seeing people say things about their financial situation, well, I have news for you, you’re not entitled to anything. It’s a shame if you can’t afford it (and I feel for you!), but why should that entitle you to pay sometimes 90% less than the rest of us from a store that supports no one but itself? You know what I do if I can’t afford something? I wait until I can, I don’t buy it for 90% off the price from the back of a truck. That’s essentially what key resellers do. Not all of them mind you, but most use dubious methods of acquiring their keys.
I admit there are reasons why you may want to seek other sources, like region locking, bad dubbing of the audio in certain versions and other reasons I haven’t thought of. I don’t mean to lump everyone under the same umbrella here. The same thing, sadly, still applies to you. You’re not entitled to it, it’s best to voice your opinion to the developer directly. By going to these questionable stores, you’re still possibly hurting Linux gaming.
I really hate the word “entitled”, it sounds terrible, but it’s an accurate way of portraying some of the attitudes I’ve seen. If this offends you somehow, you should realize it’s probably a perfect description of your attitude.
If you’re still going to buy cheap games from random places, remember who you’re supporting by doing it (certainly not the developer), and remember when developers and publishers talk down Linux ports, you’re probably at least a small part of the problem. This may sound a little unfair, but it’s the honest truth of the matter. A small amount of sales being cut down even smaller is good for no one.
To quote Edwin from Feral Interactive:
I've spoken to numerous other developers who all say a similar thing. I linked to this before, but Bundle Stars is a good example of this when I asked them if they have Linux keys or just Windows keys a while ago:
Steam - Buying directly from Steam on Linux is a Linux sale. That’s a fact, so long as the game has a playable Linux version. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have a SteamOS icon, if it has a Linux version, the developers will see a sale for it.
It doesn't really matter what operating system you buy your game on when it's directly on Steam, the main thing that counts is where it's first installed and played on for the first two weeks.
If you buy a key from elsewhere and don’t activate it until that particular game gets ported to Linux, that’s still a Windows sale. Why? Your key would have been generated before a Linux version existed, it would be part of a set of keys designed for a specific platform. The developer may see a Linux download, but not a Linux sale. I’ve had this confirmed from multiple different developers.
GOG - My GOG contacts have been unable to tell me how Linux games are tracked. I refuse to believe in 2016 a store as big as GOG don’t have something in place, and I don’t take their refusal to be open about it as a “we don’t track them”, but more as they are a business not wanting to divulge private business information.
It’s most likely that they track the number of downloads per-platform for each game.
I’ve tried asking developers about their stats from GOG, but no one is talking about it. It’s possible GOG specifically prohibits this.
Humble Bundle/Store - Humble as mentioned above in our quote from Edwin usually have keys for each platform.
Humble track the platform that was used to purchase each game, which is how they do their pie chart. So, if you buy it while on Linux, it’s generally a Linux purchase. The same applies as before though, if you buy it on Humble before it has a Linux version, prepare to be a Windows customer.
I am unsure how buying it from a mobile will count, as that’s never been mentioned anywhere. They most likely have a default set on it, which would probably be Windows for mobile sales. It’s possible they may wait to see what desktop system tries to redeem them, but we can’t be sure here.
Originally, Humble had a checkbox to tick which operating system to be counted for, but that hasn’t been around for some time. I did some test purchases today for researching this and never saw anything like it.
Itch.io (updated)- A statement from their head:
Games Republic - Their answer to me from last time:
Developers stores
One major way to support developers is to buy directly from their own store or website. Like the Feral store, Aspyr Media store, Virtual Programming store as some examples. That way, you are guaranteed to not only count as a Linux sale, but support developers directly with more of your money (Steam gets no cut then for example).
Final note, please try to remain respectful in the comments. There's no need to be rude or disrespectful to others. Disagreements are fine and part of life, insults and bad attitudes are not needed here.
With thanks to Samsai and Flesk for giving their input on this article. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
First of all, I am fully aware there will likely be a small backlash in the comments on certain points. We do seem to have a small minority of very vocal people who like to boast about buying dirt cheap games from places like G2A, which makes me sad. We also have a few who like to advocate piracy, which is not only sad, but makes us look really bad in the eyes of developers. For the most part though, the people commenting here are fantastic to talk to.
To make this a point: I am not aiming to single anyone out, nor am I aiming to be hostile towards anyone. Read this as if we are all sitting around the table having a *insert favourite drink* and discussing the best way to support our platform. That’s what this is all about, everything I do is to help Linux gaming progress somehow.
To get this out of the way; I flat out do not recommend buying from places like G2A and Kinguin, Samsai already wrote about that here. Read that as a starting point if you please. Basically, don’t pre-order, don’t buy from random reseller stores.
While Samsai touched on some dubious stores in his linked post, I wanted to talk about Steam key resellers in general. I would completely steer clear of all of them, that’s the single safest option here. I actually already wrote about this before here.
As you can see, we’ve already written about all of this before in various places, so it’s time to bring it together under one roof. Instead of having the information scattered across various previous articles.
So, how do you know if your purchase is counted as a Linux sale? Most of the time it’s actually pretty simple. I’ve come up with some general guidelines and information for you, it’s your call on how to act upon it. I don’t want to seem like I am forcing anything on anyone, these are my personal thoughts as always. As someone who is a gamer at heart who firmly believes in supporting developers, as well as an editor.
Cheap games & Resellers
If you’re extremely strapped for cash, rather than go to some dubious key reseller, try to wait out for spring/summer/autumn/winter sales. Most major stores now do massive sales for each season like Steam and GOG do. Sales happen so often, you really have no reason to go to some random reseller where your purchase is not just likely to count for Windows, but feed the pocket of none of the actual developers or publishers.
Steam rather often does specific Publisher or Developer sales, weekend sales, free weekends to test games and more. You have so many chances to get legitimate cheap games. If money really is the issue, you’re just not being patient enough. You are in full control of your own wallet, be smart with it. There's nothing wrong with waiting for a sale, that's not the issue here at all.
I’ve seen so many people worry about how little Linux games sell in comparison to other platforms, and buying your games dirt cheap on reseller stores only does one thing: Weaken our sales statistics even more and reduce the possibility of future ports happening.
Seeing people say things about their financial situation, well, I have news for you, you’re not entitled to anything. It’s a shame if you can’t afford it (and I feel for you!), but why should that entitle you to pay sometimes 90% less than the rest of us from a store that supports no one but itself? You know what I do if I can’t afford something? I wait until I can, I don’t buy it for 90% off the price from the back of a truck. That’s essentially what key resellers do. Not all of them mind you, but most use dubious methods of acquiring their keys.
I admit there are reasons why you may want to seek other sources, like region locking, bad dubbing of the audio in certain versions and other reasons I haven’t thought of. I don’t mean to lump everyone under the same umbrella here. The same thing, sadly, still applies to you. You’re not entitled to it, it’s best to voice your opinion to the developer directly. By going to these questionable stores, you’re still possibly hurting Linux gaming.
I really hate the word “entitled”, it sounds terrible, but it’s an accurate way of portraying some of the attitudes I’ve seen. If this offends you somehow, you should realize it’s probably a perfect description of your attitude.
If you’re still going to buy cheap games from random places, remember who you’re supporting by doing it (certainly not the developer), and remember when developers and publishers talk down Linux ports, you’re probably at least a small part of the problem. This may sound a little unfair, but it’s the honest truth of the matter. A small amount of sales being cut down even smaller is good for no one.
To quote Edwin from Feral Interactive:
QuoteIf you buy from a third party and they don't explicitly say they are selling Linux or Mac keys then you've bought a Windows key. Bundle-star for example sell Windows keys.
Doesn't matter where you play the game on third party stores the sale is based on the steam keys they have purchased. Humble Bundle for example have a set of keys tagged as Windows, Mac and Linux and hand out the correct ones based on your platform so that the correct platform sale is recorded.
I've spoken to numerous other developers who all say a similar thing. I linked to this before, but Bundle Stars is a good example of this when I asked them if they have Linux keys or just Windows keys a while ago:
Bundle StarsHi Liam, Sorry for the delay in responding over the weekend. I can confirm that we have not been sent new keys for Shadow of Mordor since the Linux release and only Windows is mentioned on the page. However, where we promote games as being available for Linux, these will all activate correctly for the platform.
Steam - Buying directly from Steam on Linux is a Linux sale. That’s a fact, so long as the game has a playable Linux version. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have a SteamOS icon, if it has a Linux version, the developers will see a sale for it.
It doesn't really matter what operating system you buy your game on when it's directly on Steam, the main thing that counts is where it's first installed and played on for the first two weeks.
If you buy a key from elsewhere and don’t activate it until that particular game gets ported to Linux, that’s still a Windows sale. Why? Your key would have been generated before a Linux version existed, it would be part of a set of keys designed for a specific platform. The developer may see a Linux download, but not a Linux sale. I’ve had this confirmed from multiple different developers.
GOG - My GOG contacts have been unable to tell me how Linux games are tracked. I refuse to believe in 2016 a store as big as GOG don’t have something in place, and I don’t take their refusal to be open about it as a “we don’t track them”, but more as they are a business not wanting to divulge private business information.
It’s most likely that they track the number of downloads per-platform for each game.
I’ve tried asking developers about their stats from GOG, but no one is talking about it. It’s possible GOG specifically prohibits this.
Humble Bundle/Store - Humble as mentioned above in our quote from Edwin usually have keys for each platform.
Humble track the platform that was used to purchase each game, which is how they do their pie chart. So, if you buy it while on Linux, it’s generally a Linux purchase. The same applies as before though, if you buy it on Humble before it has a Linux version, prepare to be a Windows customer.
I am unsure how buying it from a mobile will count, as that’s never been mentioned anywhere. They most likely have a default set on it, which would probably be Windows for mobile sales. It’s possible they may wait to see what desktop system tries to redeem them, but we can’t be sure here.
Originally, Humble had a checkbox to tick which operating system to be counted for, but that hasn’t been around for some time. I did some test purchases today for researching this and never saw anything like it.
Itch.io (updated)- A statement from their head:
QuoteWe don't have a metric to associated purchases to a platform. But we do monitor what files are downloaded with a purchase so we could calculate what purchases result in Linux downloads.
Games Republic - Their answer to me from last time:
QuoteWe work directly with developers & online retailers like Nexway, which work directly with publishers too. We got that information on our About Us page: https://gamesrepublic.com/service/about-us.html
We sell only legitimate and authorized keys received directly from the publishers
Developers stores
One major way to support developers is to buy directly from their own store or website. Like the Feral store, Aspyr Media store, Virtual Programming store as some examples. That way, you are guaranteed to not only count as a Linux sale, but support developers directly with more of your money (Steam gets no cut then for example).
Final note, please try to remain respectful in the comments. There's no need to be rude or disrespectful to others. Disagreements are fine and part of life, insults and bad attitudes are not needed here.
With thanks to Samsai and Flesk for giving their input on this article. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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The comments on this article are closed.
Quoting: voyager2102Anybody who discounts that there is a severe difference between a physical and a digital good can't be taken serious, I'm sorry. Of course there is a fundamental difference between me taking an apple from a tree and me copying the technique that the apple farmer uses to keep the birds off of the apple tree. In one case I dimish what he has and in the second case I do not unless I take away from his customer pool.
So if you write a book, stick it on Amazon for six euros, you'll be cool when I and thousands of others download the torrent instead? It's only digital, right? I wasn't going to buy it anyway!! Apparently I'm entitled to your cultural contribution without paying?
Man, I'm really trying here, but I just can't understand it.
2 Likes, Who?
Mountain Man Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: buenaventura...we have libraries where you can borrow books for free, there are free concerts etc.A lot of libraries these days also lend video games. For that matter, some of them even lend you the system to play them on (console, obviously). And many video games are legitimately available for free through other channels. Which is to say that if you want to engage in the "culturally enriching experience" of playing video games (I can't say that with a straight face) then you can do so, legally and ethically, without spending a dime.
In other words, you just refuted your own argument.
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: liamdaweOkay then, humour me. In what country is it acceptable to take a computer game that you're legally supposed to pay for, without paying for it? The digital vs hard copy for computer games is a pathetic strawman argument used by pirates to try to sway people towards not paying for others hard work. The fact is, if a developer wanted people to not pay, they wouldn't put a price tag on their works. If you argue against that, then I don't consider your opinion to hold very well. People need to earn money to live, it's as simple as that.That is probably not what anyone is arguing for - there is a difference between believing that it is good if culture was more available, and encouraging people to steal. Also, stealing is not even related to that sentiment, since stealing will not help make culture more available.
Quoting: liamdaweLet's remove all other things like water and food which are necessities to live. You cannot lump those together to make this argument, a hobby is completely different.That is not as straight forward as you seem to think. On an individual level, access to culture is generally very important for people's well being (here, doctors can prescribe for example visiting the theatre as a treatment to various ailments), and on a collective level, access to culture is essential to promote peace and understandning in any society.
And the idea that games are a hobby and not part of culture is just odd, where have you seen that? I am currently enrolled in a game design course at the California Institute of the Arts, on the radio and in news papers you will find game reviews next to music CD reviews in the culture section, in the academic field of Cultural Studies you certainly see studies of video games and other new media.
Quoting: liamdaweI have a pretty broad view already, but the counter-arguments I've all seen so far, to repeat myself, are from people wanting a world that as far as I am aware, does not exist.
I'm not talking about things that could be or should be, neither is anyone else, we are laying out our arguments for things as they are in the world right now.
OKay, so why are you hosting a site where you try to influence people to support linux gaming? As far as I know, linux gaming is still quite a small part of the gaming market and THAT DAMN WELL SHOULD BE THE CASE BECAUSE THAT'S THE WORLD WE LIVE IN. NO DISCUSSION; NO DREAMING; NO ADVOCACY. ;) ONLY FACTS ALLOWED.
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 2:02 pm UTC
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: Mountain ManQuoting: buenaventura...we have libraries where you can borrow books for free, there are free concerts etc.A lot of libraries these days also lend video games. For that matter, some of them even lend you the system to play them on (console, obviously). And many video games are legitimately available for free through other channels. Which is to say that if you want to engage in the "culturally enriching experience" of playing video games (I can't say that with a straight face) then you can do so, legally and ethically, without spending a dime.
In other words, you just refuted your own argument.
Yes isn't it a damn communist world we live in? Burn the libraries! THEY ARE STEALING!!!!1
Sorry, but you are the one arguing that culture should not be free, that it is a bad thing if it is. I've been referring to alterntive ways of pricing (such as itch.io) and other services that are free the entire time, as examples of how I am not alone in believing that it is good if culture is accessible and free. Also, you just ignored my entire post.
Edit: I mean, thanks, the example of libraries enabling people to borrow games for free by using public funds to pay a license to the creator in the interest of public accessibility is EXACTLY what I think is a Good Idea. I couldn't have said it better myself. If you look back, I have in fact not advocated stealing, piracy, or purchasing from g2a anywhere, as you seem to think?
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 1:54 pm UTC
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
As an aside, are there actually people who think that games are NOT culture? What? Games have been accepted as a part of mainstream culture for a long time now, which I am sure you know right? The industry is huge, entirely comparable to Hollywood and publishing books. There is entire TV-channels devoted to E-sports in some part of the world, but I guess you consider sport to also just be a hobby? :D
Edit: And as someone noted, games can be found IN LIBRARIES, do you consider reading books to be just a hobby, and not consuming culture, as well?
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 2:01 pm UTC
Edit: And as someone noted, games can be found IN LIBRARIES, do you consider reading books to be just a hobby, and not consuming culture, as well?
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 2:01 pm UTC
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Honestly, this has been argued to death now and I won't be personally commenting any more. I've said how I feel and no one has said anything at all to change how I feel about it all.
Please feel free to keep going, just make sure I don't have to deal with any reported comments for naughty behaviour ;)
Please feel free to keep going, just make sure I don't have to deal with any reported comments for naughty behaviour ;)
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: liamdaweHonestly, this has been argued to death now and I won't be personally commenting any more. I've said how I feel and no one has said anything at all to change how I feel about it all.
OK, thanks. You still haven't commented at all on the whole reason I engaged myself here though (and the thing that I am arguing about, that no one else seems to notice I am arguing about :/ ), that is:
What do you think, is it not counter productive, in an editorial that seeks to inform people about how they can purchase games in a good way, to devote entire paragraphs to your own feelings about a specific group of people? I have not heard anything about why those feelings are relevant, or how they contribute to the information in the article. In fact, my advice is that you should separate you article into two, to lessen confusion:
1. General guidelines about how to purchase linux games ethically, and
2. What I think about people who purchase games on g2a (editorial).
That would be more correct, accurate, descriptive of the article's content, and more useful. Don't you think?
Anyway, thanks for a great site!
1 Likes, Who?
voyager2102 
Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: scaineQuoting: voyager2102Anybody who discounts that there is a severe difference between a physical and a digital good can't be taken serious, I'm sorry. Of course there is a fundamental difference between me taking an apple from a tree and me copying the technique that the apple farmer uses to keep the birds off of the apple tree. In one case I dimish what he has and in the second case I do not unless I take away from his customer pool.
So if you write a book, stick it on Amazon for six euros, you'll be cool when I and thousands of others download the torrent instead? It's only digital, right? I wasn't going to buy it anyway!! Apparently I'm entitled to your cultural contribution without paying?
Man, I'm really trying here, but I just can't understand it.
Now that you ask - I actually would expect people to download and pirate it as that is the way things are. If they can't afford to buy it they are indeed welcome to download it for free and if they wouldn't have bought it anyways and read it because they pirate it then all the better - maybe they will find it fun and pay me afterwards or buy my next work!
This is not a theoretical thing for me. My company creates and sells software. I have actually written parts of an actually published book. What kind of person would I be to ask money of you that you don't have if it does not rob me of anything? I will come after you if you start using my things commercially and shame on you if you could have afforded to buy the work - but that is on your conscience.
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voyager2102 Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: scaineInteresting! But a bit of googling seems to completely disagree with your example of German Law. Can you point me in the right direction? What I've found appears to suggest that German law is very close to UK law - you can make copies for your own use, but copyright law is still in effect - that is, only the author of the works is allowed to redistribute/reproduce it for anything other than personal backup purposes. There appeared to be a debate around this in Germany around 2002/3, but nothing I can find suggests that the law changed significantly.
Your google-fu is bad ;)
German law interpreted by a lawyer, please use goole translate or the like to translate it. The paragraph is linked from there, too.
Quoting: scaineBottom line, ask yourself how you'd feel about selling one hundred copies of your work, only to discover 100 thousand such copies were being enjoyed by the masses? I'd be pissed off. How about you?
It's true - I really don't understand anyway who defends piracy. At all. Happy to be "educated" however, but that education must address not just laws and jurisdictions, but more importantly how that defender-of-piracy would justify and accept living on the street if they were the artist with no income and not the pirate.
I actually answered that in your other post (going bottom up). It is a mental excercise - you need to overcome the reflexes learned in countless hours of education, TV, advertisement etc.
Ask yourself:
1) Are you going to prevent piracy with any form of protection? No, you are just going to make life harder for your paying customers and maybe prevent the pirates to use if for a while. Everything gets cracked sooner or later - law of nature ;)
2) Why did those evil pirates download your software? There are different groups:
a) The ones that do it because they don't care about you and download it to save a buck. Those are a lost cause to you - no amount of arguing will make those customers and they are the bad apples.
b) The ones that don't have to funds to pay you anyways. They are welcome to take the game - if I later donate my profits to charity or if I am charitable by not caring that they take something without actually hurting me is kind of the same to me. I was there when I was young and I am grateful to all the people that made my life more fun then. Look at me - I am a loyal customer of a few coders/companies because I profited from their work in the past... advertisement!!!
c) The download first and reward later crowd - they potentially download a lot that they will never actually even look at but will buy because of various reasons if they actually use your software (e.g. support, extra content, being lazy) - I'm also ok with that group since they will support because quality convinced them or they will go away without bothering me about the things they don't like about my product ;)
3) Do you actually loose enything by them copying your software (see a-c above)? What?
Now why would you think the way you do? When I was young, copyrights were much shorter and less strict than they are now. Since then "intellectual copyright" holders have lobbied and advertised our society to make laws and opinions more to their liking. Things that seemed normal and logical at that time are now "unthinkable" like that people should be able to make a copy of something that they bought, or even that things they buy are actually theirs and can't be controlled by others (e.g. amazon -> kindle (deletes), steam -> account removal, etc.). The worst problem of this is that they have gotten into people's minds so people actually side with their views. Difficult to see from inside your personal perception bubble but that's what's happening here.
But this whole thing is only a side branch of the much larger issue of inequality in society, so we can discuss about this till the end of time and reach no consensus.
3 Likes, Who?
Quoting: scaineSo if you write a book, stick it on Amazon for six euros, you'll be cool when I and thousands of others download the torrent instead? It's only digital, right? I wasn't going to buy it anyway!! Apparently I'm entitled to your cultural contribution without paying?
Man, I'm really trying here, but I just can't understand it.
If people aren't going to buy the book anyways, what, exactly is the difference ^_~
Seriously, though, you are missing the second part of the cultural exchange, which is that it has, for quite a long time, been traditional to pay, even if the stuff is freely available.
There is a rather big difference between "author's shouldn't get paid for their work" and "people should not be blocked from culture due to their financial situation".
Last edited by emphy on 7 October 2016 at 3:15 pm UTC
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Quoting: voyager2102Quoting: scaineInteresting! But a bit of googling seems to completely disagree with your example of German Law. Can you point me in the right direction? What I've found appears to suggest that German law is very close to UK law - you can make copies for your own use, but copyright law is still in effect - that is, only the author of the works is allowed to redistribute/reproduce it for anything other than personal backup purposes. There appeared to be a debate around this in Germany around 2002/3, but nothing I can find suggests that the law changed significantly.
Your google-fu is bad ;)
German law interpreted by a lawyer, please use goole translate or the like to translate it. The paragraph is linked from there, too
From that article, it's crystal clear that copying in Germany is ONLY allowed:
Quotefor their own private use without profitSo your example of making a copy for your friend is still obviously illegal.
and this not be distributed or published
Quoting: voyager2102You're getting confused here between "is piracy legal?" and "is DRM a good thing?". I don't care about your justifications for why people pirate material. I'm asserting that in most (relevant) countries, the answer to that first question is "no, piracy is illegal".Quoting: scaineBottom line, ask yourself how you'd feel about selling one hundred copies of your work, only to discover 100 thousand such copies were being enjoyed by the masses? I'd be pissed off. How about you?
It's true - I really don't understand anyway who defends piracy. At all. Happy to be "educated" however, but that education must address not just laws and jurisdictions, but more importantly how that defender-of-piracy would justify and accept living on the street if they were the artist with no income and not the pirate.
I actually answered that in your other post (going bottom up). It is a mental excercise - you need to overcome the reflexes learned in countless hours of education, TV, advertisement etc.
Ask yourself:
1) Are you going to prevent piracy with any form of protection? No, you are just going to make life harder for your paying customers and maybe prevent the pirates to use if for a while. Everything gets cracked sooner or later - law of nature ;)
2) Why did those evil pirates download your software? There are different groups:
a) The ones that do it because they don't care about you and download it to save a buck. Those are a lost cause <snip!>
And as for this:
Quoting: voyager2102Now that you ask - I actually would expect people to download and pirate it as that is the way things are. If they can't afford to buy it they are indeed welcome to download it for free and if they wouldn't have bought it anyways and read it because they pirate it then all the better - maybe they will find it fun and pay me afterwards or buy my next work!.Well bravo. We agree to differ and you're a bigger man than I. But it sounds like you can afford that attitude because you don't rely on copyright law to pay you for your work. My point was that if you were starving on the street because, despite your talent, piracy deprived you of income, I'm pretty sure there's not a human being in the world who would defend piracy let alone advocate it.
It sounds like both sides are pretty entrenched here though, so like Liam I'll try to duck out of this now. No promises though...
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Quoting: buenaventuraSorry, but you are the one arguing that culture should not be free, that it is a bad thing if it is.I haven't seen a single comment saying that culture should not be free, or more accurately that no games should be free. In fact I am sure none of us even suggested anything to that effect. Not a single word against libraries, itch.io... any of it. You're fighting strawmen.
What many of us have suggested that until we reach that utopia where artists—and more to the point, game development studios—are able to profit from their work without having to rely on sales, we have no moral right to dictate the terms on which we consume their output. Feel free to help yourself to any media that is given to you by copyright owners, and do by all means take advantage of legitimate sales. None of this hurts the artist. It is the notion that you should be the one to decide that is basically the definition of self-entitlement.
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voyager2102 Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: liamdaweOkay then, humour me. In what country is it acceptable to take a computer game that you're legally supposed to pay for, without paying for it?I'll do that right after you told me where you read that in my answer ;)
But you just asked for a counter question: Why is it legal in most countries to resell physical game copies? How does that differ from stealing from the creator? Why can games be rented at the local video store? Or from a different angle: If I own a game on steam why can't I sell that anymore like a physical disk?
Do you get what jar you are opening there? We have laws and perceptions that were good an true and worked for hundreds of years and suddenly they totally clash with this new digital thing that removes duplication costs... oh my... and some people think that digital and physcial is the same or even similar... hahaha ;)
Quoting: liamdaweThe digital vs hard copy for computer games is a pathetic strawman argument used by pirates to try to sway people towards not paying for others hard work. The fact is, if a developer wanted people to not pay, they wouldn't put a price tag on their works. If you argue against that, then I don't consider your opinion to hold very well. People need to earn money to live, it's as simple as that.Ok, so are you actually calling me a pirate and my argument pathetic or am I being too sensitive here? Name calling instead of arguments is not cool.
I did not say - at any point - that people should give their work away for free. I was arguing for you not to point your morale finger at people that use games without paying since I am of the opinion that this is ok in some cases. If you actually think that what you interpreted into my words, do please point me to where I said that.
Quoting: liamdaweLet's remove all other things like water and food which are necessities to live. You cannot lump those together to make this argument, a hobby is completely different.Hmm... I do not know about your country. In mine the social security payments include help to pay for a phone and TV. I am not aware of e.g a TV being a necessity to live and yet the measure is listed under "minimal necessities" in the "Help to live" section of the social security code.
If the government pays for underage children 11% of the money are allocated to a section called "entertainment and culture". Again not necessary to just survive but society obviously thinks that even those that don't have anything else should at least participate as part of their "minimal support".
Of course not every country will have that. Some societies have different values ;)
Quoting: liamdaweI have a pretty broad view already, but the counter-arguments I've all seen so far, to repeat myself, are from people wanting a world that as far as I am aware, does not exist.And that is why I replied to your "a world, that as far as I am aware, does not exist": That world does exist. I am pointing that out to you. That is why I asked you to broaden your view.
I'm not talking about things that could be or should be, neither is anyone else, we are laying out our arguments for things as they are in the world right now.
But oh well, I saw that you said in another post that you will not respond anymore... so be it.
I appreciate your work on the site though - great work! Thanks for your effort!
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buenaventura Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: tuubiQuoting: buenaventuraSorry, but you are the one arguing that culture should not be free, that it is a bad thing if it is.I haven't seen a single comment saying that culture should not be free, or more accurately that no games should be free. In fact I am sure none of us even suggested anything to that effect. Not a single word against libraries, itch.io... any of it. You're fighting strawmen.
What many of us have suggested that until we reach that utopia where artists—and more to the point, game development studios—are able to profit from their work without having to rely on sales, we have no moral right to dictate the terms on which we consume their output. Feel free to help yourself to any media that is given to you by copyright owners, and do by all means take advantage of legitimate sales. None of this hurts the artist. It is the notion that you should be the one to decide that is basically the definition of self-entitlement.
OK, so when did I say that I should be able to decide, that I have a moral right? I have only said, that I believe it to be good with such things as you describe (itch.io) etc., that it is something that I want to see more of. I have given various reasons to why I believe that, including that equal access to culture is good for people and society, and that it is in line with what we should strive for and often as societies have agreed to strive for (for example by ratifying the UDHR, and yes games are culture god dammit).
So what is the complaint? I have expressed understanding of and compassion for people who do go outside the law to get their hands on cultural products, not because I approve of breaking laws, but because I understand that a cultural product can mean a lot to a person, and sometimes people make mistakes or are otherwise put in situations where they make imperfect choices; I even trust them to make it up somehow, perhaps by paying back in the future, or giving something of themselves back or whatever. I do not believe in moral absolutism, where no matter the circumstances, any act prohibited in law (something which in itself can be imprecise) is morally wrong. At least not any act that does not involve violence or coercion against people.
I believe that moral choices are personal/individual, that they are rightly judged by God if anyone, or by a just court process until that comes to pass, and that I have no right - I am not entitled, as you would say - to judge other people's actions - in fact, probably, I do not understand the whole situation, and I very possibly could be a worse person myself than the one I am judging. Also, I am not entrusted with being a police or a criminal judge, thus, I should not frivolously judge people.
But that is just my personal opinion, and irrelevant really - what is relevant though, is whether it is objectively effective, helpful or even relevant to engage in such judging when one's goal is to write an article about something else (namely, about informing people on their purchases). I think, as I've said, that it is not.
Last edited by buenaventura on 7 October 2016 at 4:19 pm UTC
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Mountain Man Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: buenaventuraNo, actually, libraries are funded through tax dollars, and everything they lend out is legally acquired.Quoting: Mountain ManYes isn't it a damn communist world we live in? Burn the libraries! THEY ARE STEALING!!!!1Quoting: buenaventura...we have libraries where you can borrow books for free, there are free concerts etc.A lot of libraries these days also lend video games. For that matter, some of them even lend you the system to play them on (console, obviously). And many video games are legitimately available for free through other channels. Which is to say that if you want to engage in the "culturally enriching experience" of playing video games (I can't say that with a straight face) then you can do so, legally and ethically, without spending a dime.
In other words, you just refuted your own argument.
Quoting: buenaventuraSorry, but you are the one arguing that culture should not be free...No, I am arguing that there are many culturally enriching experiences available for free to the point that claims of "entitlement" are easily satisfied without anyone having to to steal or otherwise deprive someone of compensation they are ethically entitled to. You see, "entitlement" is not a one-way street.
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voyager2102 Oct 7, 2016
Quoting: scaineFrom that article, it's crystal clear that copying in Germany is ONLY allowed:
Quotefor their own private use without profitSo your example of making a copy for your friend is still obviously illegal.
and this not be distributed or published
I provided the link, now I actually have to translate it for you, too??? Come on!
Whatever, here it is:
Der Bundesgerichtshof hat als Anhaltspunkt die Obergrenze bei sieben Vervielfältigungen gesehen (BGH, GRUR 1978, 474). Die Kopien dürfen nur für den eigenen privaten Gebrauch gemacht werden, zum Beispiel für den CD-Player im Fahrzeug oder als Zuwendung für Personen, zu denen man eine engere persönliche Beziehung hat, wie Verwandte oder Freunde.
Translation:
The Bundesgerichtshof (highest civil court of Germany) ... Copies are only allowed for private use, e.g. for your CD player in your car or as a present for people that you have a personal relationship with, like relatives or friends.
Quoting: scaineYou're getting confused here between "is piracy legal?" and "is DRM a good thing?". I don't care about your justifications for why people pirate material. I'm asserting that in most (relevant) countries, the answer to that first question is "no, piracy is illegal".I'm not getting confused at all - I am pointing out that the industry has a totally oposing view: Rather punish your customers for paying you than doing what I consider reasonable and what GOG shows very clearly to be a sound concept. I was trying to show to you that going after the pirates is a useless waste of energy because the ones that could pay won't be deterred and the ones that can't just can't - no gains to be made here, yet a big potential for unnecessary suffering.
I also fail to see where you asked that "is piracy legal" question above. Please do point me to it.
Quoting: scaineAnd as for this:Hmmm... to the contrary. The largest part of my income actually comes from some form of copyright. So you couldn't be further from the truth. What you fail to get is that I extract my money from those that can actually pay for my software. We usually make all the tools we create while building our own products freely available to the general public and many thousands of people are using them - probably even some of the game developers ;) (Actually I know that some do since we've already been mentioned in the credits ;))
Quoting: voyager2102Now that you ask - I actually would expect people to download and pirate it as that is the way things are. If they can't afford to buy it they are indeed welcome to download it for free and if they wouldn't have bought it anyways and read it because they pirate it then all the better - maybe they will find it fun and pay me afterwards or buy my next work!.Well bravo. We agree to differ and you're a bigger man than I. But it sounds like you can afford that attitude because you don't rely on copyright law to pay you for your work.
Quoting: scaineMy point was that if you were starving on the street because, despite your talent, piracy deprived you of income, I'm pretty sure there's not a human being in the world who would defend piracy let alone advocate it.I am not on the street because people were nice enough to make software freely available in various forms and shapes (e.g. Linux). I am not afraid to ever end up on the street either since most people that can pay will pay and our users are happy users. I also never advocated piracy as such - I justified it in some cases e.g. when people cannot afford to buy the product anyways. I stand by what I said and I also live by it.
Quoting: scaineIt sounds like both sides are pretty entrenched here though, so like Liam I'll try to duck out of this now. No promises though...Ok, thank you for pulling the emergency brake ;) This has already cost enough time and seing that topics like that are highly emotional for me I doubt I could have extracted myself from this debate without spending more time on it - and as you said, both sides are entrenched already and there is little hope for concessions ;)
4 Likes, Who?
The funniest part of this discussion is how utterly pointless it is. People who want to buy games from resellers, or even pirate them, will do it regardless of whatever judgment you attempt to pass on them. To quote a common saying in this thread: "Deal with it."
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My expectations:
1) If I buy digital media, I should be able to download it as many times as I want, and use it on as many devices as I like ! (The 5 device limit sucks - I love the way Google Play books & Google Play music works: buy once, unlimited downloads, use on unlimited devices)
2) If I buy a physical copy, then I own the physical media, and can make digital copies. In absence of online availability, I can then share the digital copies I have made with others, offline & online.
PS.
As far as I know, There are no Linux Game Re-sellers.
And before I moved to Android, I (almost) always pirated Windows games. --I had no inclination to support Microsoft Ecosystem.
Last edited by Ne0 on 7 October 2016 at 5:09 pm UTC
1) If I buy digital media, I should be able to download it as many times as I want, and use it on as many devices as I like ! (The 5 device limit sucks - I love the way Google Play books & Google Play music works: buy once, unlimited downloads, use on unlimited devices)
2) If I buy a physical copy, then I own the physical media, and can make digital copies. In absence of online availability, I can then share the digital copies I have made with others, offline & online.
PS.
As far as I know, There are no Linux Game Re-sellers.
And before I moved to Android, I (almost) always pirated Windows games. --I had no inclination to support Microsoft Ecosystem.
Last edited by Ne0 on 7 October 2016 at 5:09 pm UTC
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Quoting: Guest* The real heart of the matter here is not about wanting things for free, it's about supporting people who produce luxury experiences that you enjoy. Mostly that's done by paying for the product.Actually, it's about supporting the People, Platform, & Publishers that provides the luxury experiences.
It all depends on how much you love each of these, added up.
People = Developers
Platform = your Operating System, your System Architecture, etc.
Publishers = distributors like Steam, GOG, Humble Bundle, etc.
Last edited by Ne0 on 7 October 2016 at 5:47 pm UTC
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Quoteso long as the game has a playable Linux version. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have a SteamOS icon, if it has a Linux version, the developers will see a sale for itActually it'll be seen as a Linux sale even if there isn't a Linux version available, provided it is brought using Linux and not installed elsewhere for two weeks. For example The Stanley Parable had Linux sales before it was ported, and other developers have made similar comments.
Of course at that time there probably there probably isn't an agreement in place for the porter to get paid so this is just a technicality.
QuoteIt doesn't really matter what operating system you buy your game on when it's directly on Steam, the main thing that counts is where it's first installed and played on for the first two weeks.If you buy but don't install during that period then the platform you brought with will count. The Steam mobile client counts as the default ie Windows. If you install then that platform will override it. If you play then the platform with the most play time at the end of the period will be counted. This means that a gift to a Windows user can count as a Linux sale if you keep it in your inventory for two weeks.
It is also worth noting that the discussion about buying from third party stores only matters when the porting company becomes another publisher for that game such as with Aspyr or Feral. If the port is done in house then the money goes to the same company anyway and Steamworks will tell them where it was installed.
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