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It has come to my attention recently that some people have been taking a really hard stance against developers who want to gauge interest for a Linux port. I want to talk about it for a bit.
Note: This is an editorial, so this means these are my personal thoughts. Not agreeing (with me or anyone else who comments) is not an excuse for insults. Please be respectful in the comments.
I should note as well: I don't want to come across like some old know-it-all fart here, but I think this needs to be said.
There may be a large amount of games available for Linux now, but we aren’t even close when it comes to the amount or quality of those on Windows. I seriously don’t think we are at a stage where we can afford to turn away any developer yet. We’ve seen ports delayed in the past due to the attitudes of some people, and I don’t ever want that to happen again.
There’s also the financial aspect, it may be profitable for bigger titles getting ported by the likes of Feral with a lot of experience, but it’s often rather costly for developers to bring titles to Linux when they don’t know the system (time = money and all that). It’s easy to forget, so this is a simple call for calm.
When a developer comes along and responds to the inevitable “will this come to Linux?” email, Twitter or forum post, do remember you’re speaking to another human.
I’ve seen people claim things like “the developer wants us to beg” (and sometimes much more colourful language has been used), but that’s a truly terrible attitude to take and it has been annoying me more and more. It’s not begging if you’re showing a developer that their game is interesting to another potential audience.
We are a smaller community, so such remarks will be a lot louder to developers—especially when it’s an indie developer. You’re often talking to a one or two person setup probably working from home.
If you were a game developer and someone came along to ask for a port to another platform, how would you feel when your reply asking to see interest was met with such outright hostility? It’s idiotic, unhelpful and, to be honest, it’s yet another reason the Linux gaming community has been called Toxic in the past.
Be the Linux community I know and love, be helpful to developers, get in on beta testing when you can (I’ve seen plenty of developers give out free keys for this too!) and appreciate the good games we get. We are a smaller market in most people’s eyes, so let’s not turn away anything that could help us grow even a little.
The fact is, I’ve seen multiple games only come to Linux because Linux fans showed actual interest in it. One such example is Nightside, which I discovered on Steam. After a quick chat with the developer, I was able to convince them to do a Linux build and after a short test they then decided to support a Linux build. There’s many such examples like this, but due to the amount of games I cover that’s one I could quickly pull up (without having to sift through hundreds of articles).
I implore you to think about what you’re saying. Is it making the Linux community sound like entitled and self-important morons or are you being helpful? Be smart, be understanding and keep be awesome. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Note: This is an editorial, so this means these are my personal thoughts. Not agreeing (with me or anyone else who comments) is not an excuse for insults. Please be respectful in the comments.
I should note as well: I don't want to come across like some old know-it-all fart here, but I think this needs to be said.
There may be a large amount of games available for Linux now, but we aren’t even close when it comes to the amount or quality of those on Windows. I seriously don’t think we are at a stage where we can afford to turn away any developer yet. We’ve seen ports delayed in the past due to the attitudes of some people, and I don’t ever want that to happen again.
There’s also the financial aspect, it may be profitable for bigger titles getting ported by the likes of Feral with a lot of experience, but it’s often rather costly for developers to bring titles to Linux when they don’t know the system (time = money and all that). It’s easy to forget, so this is a simple call for calm.
When a developer comes along and responds to the inevitable “will this come to Linux?” email, Twitter or forum post, do remember you’re speaking to another human.
I’ve seen people claim things like “the developer wants us to beg” (and sometimes much more colourful language has been used), but that’s a truly terrible attitude to take and it has been annoying me more and more. It’s not begging if you’re showing a developer that their game is interesting to another potential audience.
We are a smaller community, so such remarks will be a lot louder to developers—especially when it’s an indie developer. You’re often talking to a one or two person setup probably working from home.
If you were a game developer and someone came along to ask for a port to another platform, how would you feel when your reply asking to see interest was met with such outright hostility? It’s idiotic, unhelpful and, to be honest, it’s yet another reason the Linux gaming community has been called Toxic in the past.
Be the Linux community I know and love, be helpful to developers, get in on beta testing when you can (I’ve seen plenty of developers give out free keys for this too!) and appreciate the good games we get. We are a smaller market in most people’s eyes, so let’s not turn away anything that could help us grow even a little.
The fact is, I’ve seen multiple games only come to Linux because Linux fans showed actual interest in it. One such example is Nightside, which I discovered on Steam. After a quick chat with the developer, I was able to convince them to do a Linux build and after a short test they then decided to support a Linux build. There’s many such examples like this, but due to the amount of games I cover that’s one I could quickly pull up (without having to sift through hundreds of articles).
I implore you to think about what you’re saying. Is it making the Linux community sound like entitled and self-important morons or are you being helpful? Be smart, be understanding and keep be awesome. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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OLucasZanella 6 Dec 2016
Why should one see developers as humans when they don't see us as that themselves? Remember the whole thing when it said Linux in the kickstarter, Linux gamers supported the game and then the game wasn't released to Linux because problems*?
I agree we shouldn't be dicks to developers when we are talking directly to them, but here, aren't we among friends? Why can't one notice the whole "if there is interest and people start asking we may develop something" trend and think it's basically a call for begging?
*Which doesn't matter if they are real or not, promising is one thing, getting payed and then not delivering is another.
Edit: I think we all here know about the whole "don't pre-order and don't support a kickstarter", but then didn't this start just because the developers were the ones being the dicks? Yeah, it's not good receiving unwanted dick, but more important than showing we are a loving community is showing we don't take things for granted. The Witcher 3 didn't come to Linux and I think part of that was because of the shitty 2 port backlash. If they (all developers in the world) see that and get a bit afraid of porting, then to me this is even good. They don't wanna waste money on porting, great, I don't wanna waste money on bad ports. It's harsh? Hell yeah, I want it to be.
As much as I love Feral Interactive, the lack of complaining means there is a texture bug in Shadow of Mordor that hasn't been corrected in maybe a year. To me, it's all a message: "do not take us lightly, for we too have claws"
Last edited by OLucasZanella on 6 Dec 2016 at 10:53 pm UTC
I agree we shouldn't be dicks to developers when we are talking directly to them, but here, aren't we among friends? Why can't one notice the whole "if there is interest and people start asking we may develop something" trend and think it's basically a call for begging?
*Which doesn't matter if they are real or not, promising is one thing, getting payed and then not delivering is another.
Edit: I think we all here know about the whole "don't pre-order and don't support a kickstarter", but then didn't this start just because the developers were the ones being the dicks? Yeah, it's not good receiving unwanted dick, but more important than showing we are a loving community is showing we don't take things for granted. The Witcher 3 didn't come to Linux and I think part of that was because of the shitty 2 port backlash. If they (all developers in the world) see that and get a bit afraid of porting, then to me this is even good. They don't wanna waste money on porting, great, I don't wanna waste money on bad ports. It's harsh? Hell yeah, I want it to be.
As much as I love Feral Interactive, the lack of complaining means there is a texture bug in Shadow of Mordor that hasn't been corrected in maybe a year. To me, it's all a message: "do not take us lightly, for we too have claws"
Last edited by OLucasZanella on 6 Dec 2016 at 10:53 pm UTC
2 Likes, Who?
Why should one see developers as humans when they don't see us as that themselves? Remember the whole thing when it said Linux in the kickstarter, Linux gamers supported the game and then the game wasn't released to Linux because problems*?You're talking about an entirely different topic mate.
2 Likes, Who?
Well said Liam,
remember just because you use Linux you don't need to be have like a certain Mr Torvalds.....
remember just because you use Linux you don't need to be have like a certain Mr Torvalds.....
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OLucasZanella 6 Dec 2016
You're talking about an entirely different topic mate.Well, it resulted in backlash and "bad words" were said. It's not too strange a path to take from the post.
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Truth is the world of gaming is becoming so BIG that its fracturing itself under its own weight; windows store vs steam games not playing together (COD), console wars (PSN vs Xbox live), the high price of PC games - I remember the days when console games where proportionally much more expensive. If we are not careful then game developers are going to increasingly take sides...
Remember; it was not KIDS that took gaming mainstream, it was NERDS like us! We need to shine a light and show the world a new way, open platforms are the only way forward for truly sustainable gaming.
Even AAA titles fail (arkam knight, infinite warfare on windows store), if the big ones can crash and burn even then we as the open-source community should be more supportive of developers with issues.
Trolling them is not helping anybody…
PS: I see a world in not too distant future were you need 3 consoles, 2 PC ‘stores’ and 2 mobile devices to get the games you *want* to play.
The way forward for everyone is open-source platforms and WebGL. (and similar methodologies)
Remember; it was not KIDS that took gaming mainstream, it was NERDS like us! We need to shine a light and show the world a new way, open platforms are the only way forward for truly sustainable gaming.
Even AAA titles fail (arkam knight, infinite warfare on windows store), if the big ones can crash and burn even then we as the open-source community should be more supportive of developers with issues.
Trolling them is not helping anybody…
PS: I see a world in not too distant future were you need 3 consoles, 2 PC ‘stores’ and 2 mobile devices to get the games you *want* to play.
The way forward for everyone is open-source platforms and WebGL. (and similar methodologies)
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A certain user in a previous article made a particularly cogent point: Linux ports typically get 1-3% of sales across the board. Asking people to raise their hands repeatedly (across multiple games/developers) to show interest is indeed pointless if you can just look at the stats and figure out if that percentage makes it worth it for you. In fact that's a lot more reliable and safe for developers than trying to gauge subjectively whether X number of posts in a Steam forum in a given time frame means sufficient sales to make a port viable.
I don't resent them at all for asking, but it would be more helpful for us to show them figures when we see them asking for a show of interest than to roll our eyes or say "yes please."
I don't resent them at all for asking, but it would be more helpful for us to show them figures when we see them asking for a show of interest than to roll our eyes or say "yes please."
6 Likes, Who?
Well, the gaming community in general has been considered toxic for the longest time. Remember when a COD dev announced some changes in a patch, which included some nerfing, and the fans went berserk and even threatened to kill his family?
If I was a conspiratorial man, I'd suspect that those things were actually done by people with an agenda who want to the community to seem toxic, but there's no evidence for any of that, so let's not.
Anyway, as I'm an old fogey, who greatly prefers the best of the SNES and PSX over modern PC gaming, I'm not really interested in most announced games and whether or not they're coming to Linux.
If I was a conspiratorial man, I'd suspect that those things were actually done by people with an agenda who want to the community to seem toxic, but there's no evidence for any of that, so let's not.
Anyway, as I'm an old fogey, who greatly prefers the best of the SNES and PSX over modern PC gaming, I'm not really interested in most announced games and whether or not they're coming to Linux.
3 Likes, Who?
WebGL
Hopefully not that. Perhaps WebVulkan though.
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Luke_Nukem 7 Dec 2016
Quite frankly the "elitest/snobbish/arrogant" element coming out in Linux gaming communities is pissing me off big time.
How about let's do something different - if you see that a developer has taken the time and effort to support our smaller market segment, and help to expand and grow it, congratulate and thank them! It's what I do on any medium that they are active on.
And above all, if you have the absolute inability to say things in a constructive non-fucking-wankerish way, then don't fucking say anything at all!
Don't be a cunt. It's that simple.
How about let's do something different - if you see that a developer has taken the time and effort to support our smaller market segment, and help to expand and grow it, congratulate and thank them! It's what I do on any medium that they are active on.
And above all, if you have the absolute inability to say things in a constructive non-fucking-wankerish way, then don't fucking say anything at all!
Don't be a cunt. It's that simple.
12 Likes, Who?
I don't care about developers and their feelings (sorry, Feral, but I don't know you personally guys - we can go for whiskey some day when I'm rich and will feel like landing in US in my private jet). I don't care about Linux "ports" (because I believe software should be developed on Linux first). I care about quality games being released for Linux on Steam with regular updates, sane performance, and sold for a sane price. We aren't 2nd sort people and we shouldn't treat ourselves as we were saying "oh, let's be happy because this lousy job Linux *port* could be worse". I'm not paying less money than Windows user, I shouldn't expect worse product, I'm not happy when it turnes out to be... But I don't lash at anyone, as I assume nobody (but my mom) cares for my feelings either. I just do refunds. Why would anyone do anything else...?
Last edited by cprn on 9 Dec 2016 at 1:35 pm UTC
Last edited by cprn on 9 Dec 2016 at 1:35 pm UTC
3 Likes, Who?
GustyGhost 7 Dec 2016
Not agreeing (with me or anyone else who comments) is not an excuse for insults. Please be respectful in the comments.
PS: I see a world in not too distant future were you need 3 consoles, 2 PC ‘stores’ and 2 mobile devices to get the games you *want* to play.
This only holds true for the mentality that one must have access to every game at all times. Which, even today, that mentality will drive up your cost of gaming significantly. Those of you who "sacrificed" games by giving them up in a switch from consoles to PC know what I'm talking about. Is it really that much bigger of a step to just enjoy the games that are available on your platform?
Last edited by GustyGhost on 7 Dec 2016 at 2:59 am UTC
4 Likes, Who?
slaapliedje 7 Dec 2016
Don't be a cunt. It's that simple.
Pretty much my philosophy in life. It is the answer to world peace.
I was going to keep this simple, but decided to throw in my own little rant though.
I really REALLY want to buy Total War: Warhammer. While Feral is awesome and it would be one of the few games I didn't buy previously on Windows because I knew it was coming (unlike the "It's going to get a port, and no it isn't and then it is, then it isn't of Mad Max"), but I have this problem of the original developer being a cunt. And by this I mean all the reviews that state you basically get a shell of a game unless you pack on DLC.
DLC needs to die in a fire. It pretty much makes me just give up on a lot of games these days until they are released with a Game of the Year version. I mean even with the recent sale on it, with just the major DLC it still adds up to 120 or so.
Unfortunately developers are going to continue to do this until we, as consumers, make a stand and start refusing to buy the crap. While I have been picked here and there for Crusader Kings 2 (what is it with strategy games thinking they can do this worse than everyone else?) I think I've gotten a bit angry after I've seen how many different things they have. Like soundtracks, really?
Granted, earlier today I was talking to a friend about how lame it is that a physical copy of a new game costs the same or sometimes less than a digital download, and you generally still get a printed manual, and a CD, even if it comes with a steam key as well. Ugh, I bought Postal III to show I was a fan of Running with Scissors (too bad they outsourced that and it ended up being a piece of crap) and it came with two DVDs and a piece of paper with a steam key on it... and I kid you not, you installed the two disks and then it required the steam key to be added to your library so it could download another 10gb... as if installing the two disks was overwritten anyhow.
So developers need to stop being cunts to us. I'm stressing here that this is NOT Feral's or any porting houses fault. They know we want games like this. Granted I shouldn't just blame the developers, no... we should point the finger were it belongs. The goddamn publishers. Most developers don't care about DLC, they just want their game out there and for people to love their creation most of the time. The publishers are assholes and think they can get away with all this crap, mainly because we have to have the full game!!! Even if that full game costs twice as much as it should...
I didn't have a problem with Neverwinter Nights and their modules that they sold, because they were in essence selling you entirely new games for 5-10 bucks! That's a model I could get behind again. Then we went from Bioware's genius to Bethesda's Horse Armor..... and it just got worse from there.
Ha, the new ghostbusters game, from what I heard had DLC to remove the stripes from the uniforms for the 'classic' version... it was like 2 dollars for that...
Last edited by slaapliedje on 7 Dec 2016 at 5:29 am UTC
1 Likes, Who?
Liam, a good while ago you wrote "Don't be a shit" to welcome a known Linux basher to your site. I'd like to formally repropose making that the first and most important rule for all members of the GOL community. In fact, that would pretty much make all the other rules redundant.
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PS: I see a world in not too distant future were you need 3 consoles, 2 PC ‘stores’ and 2 mobile devices to get the games you *want* to play.
This only holds true for the mentality that one must have access to every game at all times. Which, even today, that mentality will drive up your cost of gaming significantly. Those of you who "sacrificed" games by giving them up in a switch from consoles to PC know what I'm talking about. Is it really that much bigger of a step to just enjoy the games that are available on your platform?
I know 3 people who have two or more completely separate gaming ecosystems, myself included would make 4. Some I play with work colleagues (consoles), others I enjoy playing strategy games on (my Linux box)? Why should we not have access to the games we really want to play?
All I know is; as gaming ecosystems inevitably fracture under their own weight, and web browsers slowly get better (GL/Vulkan and offline data support) and internet speeds increase - all of which is happening faster than you think, the first company to invest heavily in an sophisticated open web-based gaming ecosystem will be truly rich! Speaking of; facebook is sneakily worming its way into this market - some of those games on FB have staggering high player counts. Now I am not saying facebook are good; just that if you need proof of concept there it is, fast forward 10 years and we might all be gaming on open source platforms!
There are some amazing quake webGL examples in the wild - Google them and see for yourself! Even with primitive GL support you can feel the potential of instant gaming - visually its the same as the game we all played 15 years ago, stages load instantly, inputs are smooth, assets stream on demand, flexible payment & ownership potential, global reach, cloud based profiles & saved games, 100% multi platform, it has almost every advantage you can imagine!
Last edited by Xelancer on 7 Dec 2016 at 9:34 am UTC
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slaapliedje 7 Dec 2016
Don't be a cunt. It's that simple.
<snipped>.
Sorry for snipping, but what this got to do with Linux gaming? This is a general DLC rant that belongs elsewhere imho.
Anyway, on topic I will try sharing with some developers to see if they have the time and surely the incentive to post their thoughts.
My take on it? I agree with everything Liam has stated, annoying a developer is only going to want them to *not* develop for Linux.
Well, my point was along the lines of it being difficult to support Linux Gaming when it is getting more difficult to justify supporting gaming at all.
I hate the fact I have to reboot into Windows at the moment to use my Vive, and there have been plenty of the troll type that says "why bother porting, just use Windows." Which to me is pretty close to 'Why choose democracy when everyone around you is Nazi?'
Like I said, the devs are usually just out to make a great game. Troll the likes of Electronic Arts if you want to annoy someone.
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I don't care about developers and their feelings. I don't care about Linux "ports". I care about quality games being released for Linux on Steam with regular updates, sane performance, for a sane price. We aren't 2nd sort people and we shouldn't treat ourselves as we were saying "oh, let's be happy because this lousy job Linux *port* could be worse". I'm not paying less money than Windows user, I shouldn't expect worse product, I'm not happy when it turnes out to be... But I don't lash at anyone, as I assume nobody (but my mom) cares for my feelings either. I just do refunds. Why would anyone do anything else...?
You do not understand the problem. Example: Divinity Original Sin. Was announced in 2014 for Linux. Due to problems with middle-ware the release was delayed by nearly two years. During this time enormous hatred has spread over the publisher (Larian Studios). But Larian was right. In the end Larian has delivered one of the best Linux ports ever. The game is playable under Linux just as well as under Windows. But because of all the trouble, Larian has not issued any announcements for a Linux port for Divinity Original Sin II. Many will not wait for the Linux port, which may never come and play the game under Windows. Me too. Is that what you want? For me, Linux always means being polite and constructive. It is a philosophy. We Linux Gamers are a small insignificant minority. So far we have only our good manners.
Last edited by 0aTT on 7 Dec 2016 at 10:14 am UTC
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I couldn't agree more - a vocal minority with entitlement issues are spoiling it for the rest of us
Or "this is why we can't have nice things"
Or "this is why we can't have nice things"
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edddeduck_feral 7 Dec 2016
Feral Interactive, the lack of complaining means there is a texture bug in Shadow of Mordor that hasn't been corrected in maybe a year. To me, it's all a message: "do not take us lightly, for we too have claws"
For people reading about this and wondering about the issue I have a few bits of information. We've had a beta patch via support since just after this happened, unfortunately for various reasons this beta update is not yet on the main branch.
There is also a launch script alternative that you can do using the current release version if you prefer. Anyone who wants info on the beta just contact our support and we'll give you all the details.
6 Likes, Who?
In addition to that, GOL did have an article on that very thing right here. We also had a user submission showing how to fix it for now right here (which is linked at the top of the previous link too).Feral Interactive, the lack of complaining means there is a texture bug in Shadow of Mordor that hasn't been corrected in maybe a year. To me, it's all a message: "do not take us lightly, for we too have claws"
For people reading about this and wondering about the issue I have a few bits of information. We've had a beta patch via support since just after this happened, unfortunately for various reasons this beta update is not yet on the main branch.
There is also a launch script alternative that you can do using the current release version if you prefer. Anyone who wants info on the beta just contact our support and we'll give you all the details.
0 Likes
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