Looks like Cosmic Star Heroine could have a Linux version soon

Quoting: razing32Hmm , did not hear of those games.
Are they not being ported because of said plugins ?

Through the Woods -- yes, the Linux version was available in the demo (IDK about official Kickstarter promise) but later the situation changed as it turned out the "Vital Technology Upon Which Relies the Entire Project"™ (no, it is not replaceable!!!) is Windows-only.

And as of Obsidian Entertainment (a true veterans without any sarcasm!) -- their "Pillars of Eternity" had the so-called "Shroud"™ plugin (AFAIK) to render capes and such. The plugin worked under Windows and was declared as working on Mac. Somehow Obsidian just assumed by the time of the release it will be available on Linux without even prooving Mac reliability. As it turned out, declared Mac support was total BS and developers of said plugin had no plans on fixing it (let alone add Linux support). The story ended with Obsidian just disabling cape visualization on Linux and MacOS as it was not feasible to replace the plugin that late in the development process (they found out the bad news just prior to release, when they tried to compile the game for Linux and MacOS for the first time).

So yeah! A developer testing declared Linux version after release… it tells something about their skills.

Quoting: Alm888So yeah! A developer testing declared Linux version after release… it tells something about their skills.

I don't see this changing any time. The market share simply needs to be higher for people to start caring earlier. Unless of course, as happens with some projects, one of the devs likes working on Linux and will automatically keep an eye on it.

Quoting: Alm888So, they basically ran Kickstarter campaign several years ago, developed the entire game exclusively on Windows, not even checking Linux compatibility once, released the game and only after 3 months he (the "coder-guy" ) finally graces us with his first Linux install of the life.

They seem to be professionals of the highest caliber! "Promise now, deal with it later" at its best! Keep your fingers crossed that they didn't use some Windows-only plugins, like… you know… Obsidian (hello capes!) or Antagonist (Through the Woods.

I actually asked him about the Linux progress a few weeks ago on twitter. It seems like Zeboyd is a 1-2 man "studio" and with delays to ALL the supported platforms they were working on, I can't blame such a small team for deciding to release each platform independently of each other. We're the smallest potential customer base of all the platforms, so it's natural that we'd get work done last.... especially since it is much, much harder for small developers to make back their money on Mac/Linux ports than it is for AAA developers.

Also, I was pretty sure that they were using platform independent tools to build the game. Unfortunately, I have no source for where I thought I read that and don't really have time to go look it up right now.

Quoting: Alm888So yeah! A developer testing declared Linux version after release… it tells something about their skills.

That means absolutely nothing. I develop Puppet Modules, some Rails apps, and Ruby libraries. I couldn't tell you how I would make anything I've worked on work in a Windows Environment..... does that mean my skills suck? That's not how software development works and I this hostility that some of the vocal parts of our community throw indiscriminately at developers needs to stop until you can prove that you have experience working with such complex products and tooling. It's NEVER as simple as some make it out to be.


Last edited by EagleDelta on 31 July 2017 at 4:12 pm UTC

Quoting: EagleDeltaI actually asked him about the Linux progress a few weeks ago on twitter. It seems like Zeboyd is a 1-2 man "studio"…

I know that.

Quoting: EagleDelta…I can't blame such a small team for deciding to release each platform independently of each other.

And I can as I'm a backer and my money is no worse than money of Windows users.

Quoting: EagleDeltaWe're the smallest potential customer base of all the platforms, so it's natural that we'd get work done last....

Natural for you -- maybe. But not for me. If you can not do the job properly, then don't attempt to do it! Come to think of it, they already offered 50% discount before the Linux version saw the light of the day. This means I could just wait for the sale instead of backing the project for nothing (so far, at least). This whole "small user base" argument is pure rationalization and you probably know it, just can not accept the pain of being "second-class citizen" and persuading yourself into thinking that all of this is normal.

Quoting: Alm888Also, I was pretty sure that they were using platform independent tools to build the game.

That "tool" is called Unity3D which replaced "Microsoft XNA" from their previous works (they explained this in one of Kickstarter updates). And we know Unity works (more or less ;) ). The recent tweet is a clear indicatior of that: the guy installed Ubuntu for the first time, launched his game and it worked right out of the box! So, apparently, Linux (and probably, MacOS) release was delayed for no objective reason (other than "we are just two guys and have a lot of things on our hands right now, our fingers are too hurt from all those paperwork signing for release on Steam").

Quoting: EagleDeltaThat means absolutely nothing. I develop Puppet Modules, some Rails apps, and Ruby libraries. I couldn't tell you how I would make anything I've worked on work in a Windows Environment..... does that mean my skills suck?

That does not make you an honor. I develop for Windows on Linux (Windows XP included! Because he who pays, chooses the music) and damn I be if I not test my program on several versions of Windows (GTK2 and dynamic loading are a pain, especially not the most recent builds).

Quoting: EagleDeltaThat's not how software development works and I this hostility that some of the vocal parts of our community throw indiscriminately at developers needs to stop until you can prove that you have experience working with such complex products and tooling. It's NEVER as simple as some make it out to be.

Demanding a proof of my expertise when you did not provide yours? That's bold! My advice: speak for yourself and stop preaching the community and judging its "misbehavior". You are in no better position as anyone else to dictate what everyone should feel, think or say!

But enough of that, our conversation starts to feel personal and I do not like it one bit!

With all of this said, I must clarify my position: I am not against Zeboyd or their projects. In fact, I'm very hyped to see the game (finally!) but the spoon is most precious at dinnertime. And we (will?) get our "spoon" when Windows users are washing dishes. I will watch for Zeboyd's future products, but no more money from me till the release day.

Quoting: Alm888And I can as I'm a backer and my money is no worse than money of Windows users.

Quoting: Alm888Natural for you -- maybe. But not for me. If you can not do the job properly, then don't attempt to do it! Come to think of it, they already offered 50% discount before the Linux version saw the light of the day. This means I could just wait for the sale instead of backing the project for nothing (so far, at least). This whole "small user base" argument is pure rationalization and you probably know it, just can not accept the pain of being "second-class citizen" and persuading yourself into thinking that all of this is normal.

You have a right to be upset if you paid money, sure. I'll give you that. But, as a Developer, you should be fully aware of setbacks that can easily happen due to unforeseen problems.

Additionally, as there had already been significant delays to the release of the game and delaying it yet again for smaller platforms would've been a bad business move. Delay too much/too many times and customers stop caring. Sure, it's not fair to you, but there is absolutely no fair solution here. Either the smaller customer base waits or all of the customers wait (which would be unfair and potentially damaging to the developer).

As for your money no being "no worse" than Windows users' money. Objectively that is true. Money is money.... when taken at individual customer value, but businesses (even indie ones) don't have that luxury. A single customer's payment doesn't pay the bills or make them profitable. So, subjectively, from the Business' viewpoint, our money is worth less as our customer base provides less profit potential than the larger user base.

Quoting: Alm888That "tool" is called Unity3D which replaced "Microsoft XNA" from their previous works (they explained this in one of Kickstarter updates). And we know Unity works (more or less ;) ). The recent tweet is a clear indicatior of that: the guy installed Ubuntu for the first time, launched his game and it worked right out of the box! So, apparently, Linux (and probably, MacOS) release was delayed for no objective reason (other than "we are just two guys and have a lot of things on our hands right now, our fingers are too hurt from all those paperwork signing for release on Steam").

Sure, it probably works mostly fine on Ubuntu, but Zeboyd probably takes the same stance that some of the FOSS communities I'm in do:

"We don't support it on a system until we test it on that system."

Quoting: Alm888That does not make you an honor. I develop for Windows on Linux (Windows XP included! Because he who pays, chooses the music) and damn I be if I not test my program on several versions of Windows (GTK2 and dynamic loading are a pain, especially not the most recent builds).

And testing on multiple versions of the same Operating System is a LOT easier then testing on multiple versions of multiple platforms AND Operating Systems.

I do this too and sometimes it's a real big pain to try and figure out why the tests are failing/not working (Actually dealing with this now. Have automated tests running as I write this). That said, because it's automated, we can find issues on a specific OS really fast, fix it and move on to a release. Usually in less than a day.

Also, if there's one thing I've noticed from the outside looking in.... Game Development practices seem have significantly drifted away from how a lot of modern Software Development is performed. Outside of a few development studios, it seems most of game dev has NOT adopted modern software development practices such as Automated testing, Automated Deployments, Agile workflows (and deployments), etc. Meaning that game devs may not have the tools in place for fast and stable deployments/releases of their games to multiple platforms.

Quoting: Alm888With all of this said, I must clarify my position: I am not against Zeboyd or their projects. In fact, I'm very hyped to see the game (finally!) but the spoon is most precious at dinnertime. And we (will?) get our "spoon" when Windows users are washing dishes. I will watch for Zeboyd's future products, but no more money from me till the release day.

This, I can totally get behind and agree with. No argument here.


Last edited by EagleDelta on 2 August 2017 at 3:50 pm UTC

Quoting: EagleDelta…there is absolutely no fair solution here.

The solution there would be to not promise what you can not or, even worse, do not intend to fulfill. Or to stick to your promise till the (bitter?) end. Or to refund all those who you let down in hopes they will still pick your game during a sale (for 50% or less) when it finally arrives. That would be more honest, don't you think? But a business venture has no concept of "honesty", "morals" or "fairness". Money is money, after all.

Quoting: EagleDeltaAs for your money no being "no worse" than Windows users' money. Objectively that is true. Money is money.... when taken at individual customer value, but businesses (even indie ones) don't have that luxury. A single customer's payment doesn't pay the bills or make them profitable. So, subjectively, from the Business' viewpoint, our money is worth less as our customer base provides less profit potential than the larger user base.

It is called Prisoner's dilemma. From the Business' viewpoint it is more profitable to betray, like "Larian Studios" did (when they were on the brink of bankruptcy, they promised Linux just for the sake of extra cash). That way a developer can perform a simple money grab and get away with it (as there are no precedents proving otherwise). But it is true only for one-step game. As it is said "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me". But if things go right, there will be no need to return to Kickstarter.

Quoting: EagleDeltaSure, it probably works mostly fine on Ubuntu, but Zeboyd probably takes the same stance that some of the FOSS communities I'm in do:

"We don't support it on a system until we test it on that system."

And that's reasonable. But I highly doubt they will test the game on Gentoo, Debian, Fedora, SUSE, Arch, Antergos, Red Flag, ROSA, Manjaro and other distros. Ubuntu is all we will get, for better or for worse. And they only testing it now…

Quoting: EagleDeltaAnd testing on multiple versions of the same Operating System is a LOT easier then testing on multiple versions of multiple platforms AND Operating Systems.

True. But in our case they should add a single OS (distro) -- Ubuntu. And I highly doubt they tested their game on all of the Windows flavors. In fact, I suppose they are settled for what their version of Unity3D supports. Truth to be told, they are not true programmers. Hardly they even wrote more than a hundred lines of code. They are artists, composers, designers, scripters. They take the pre-made tool (video game kit such as Unity or XNA) and make a game on it. All their code are scripts for the Unity, not true application code. And I pray they did not pick any obnoxious plugins on the way as they are probably lack any expertise to fix them (if they are broken) or even access to the source code.

Quoting: EagleDeltaAlso, if there's one thing I've noticed from the outside looking in.... Game Development practices seem have significantly drifted away from how a lot of modern Software Development is performed. Outside of a few development studios, it seems most of game dev has NOT adopted modern software development practices such as Automated testing, Automated Deployments, Agile workflows (and deployments), etc. Meaning that game devs may not have the tools in place for fast and stable deployments/releases of their games to multiple platforms.

Gamedev nowadays is not the same as in 80's. Then a (often) single person had to not only compose the music, but to write his(her) sound driver as well, draw images and invent a way for DOS to actually display them. That were the days when various obscure sound and graphic formats were invented (like in case of Black Isle Studio: "Startrek Scripting Language" and ACM sound format used in Fallout -- internal developments). The game-programmers were elite of the elite (ever heard of "Sega Technical Institute" ), their names were secret (they used nicknames in game's titles). And they were few.
Nowadays everyone can download Unity3D, RPGMaker, "GameMaker: Studio", "Wintermute Engine" (or "Adventure Game Studio" ) and start creating. The programming skill fell trough the ground right into Earth's mantle, but the number of creative, innovative projects skyrocketed!

So, even if Zeboyd are programming laymen, they probably made a damn-good game (or so I hope)! Heard a lot of good stuff about their innovative storytelling, humor and superb game design.

I was considering picking this up in the current sale on GOG. I didn't find an entry in the wine AppDB, but (so far) empty promises of a Linux version. Not going to buy it until it actually comes out for Linux.