The Witcher 3 is something Linux users have been practically begging to have, but the problem is that it seems it will likely never come to Linux. An ex-Virtual Programming developer has taken to reddit explaining why this may have happened.
I should stress, for our own record here that this is not the official word from Virtual Programming or CD Projekt RED. This is the personal opinion of an ex-VP developer.
Here's the issue: The Linux version of The Witcher 2 was released in a poor state, it had poor performance and just didn't really work well at all. It was later fixed-up and last time I tried it, the performance was absolutely fine for me. The real problem, is the amount of hate that was sent towards the porters Virtual Programming and directly to CD Projekt RED as well. Even I personally saw some of the hate that was sent their way and it was downright idiotic and absolutely uncalled for.
I will absolutely hold my hands up as well, I made mistakes around it since I simply didn't know enough at the time, and to be honest three years ago I was still learning a lot about everything. I later corrected what I said, as I always aim to.
Writing on reddit, this developer said (source):
It seems we may have also seen a port of The Witcher 1 as well, as the developer also said (source):
There's also this post from another user, who said at the time The Witcher 2 released for Linux, CDProjekt apparently lost a fair amount on the Warsaw Stock Exchange. Apparently due to such a big backlash from the community about the initial release quality. I haven't verified that myself, but if true it would certainly make CDProjekt rather against doing another Linux port with anyone.
This is sad, really sad. I hope this makes a few people reconsider their attitude when talking to developer about the performance of ports. Performance can be worked on and fixed, burnt bridges are harder (and sometimes impossible) to fix.
This reminds me of the time the Blizzard President responded to a small petition asking for Linux ports of their games. The response to the petition was really nice to see from such a big company and truthfully the response I fully expected, but the original statement in reply to it from the petition author (now deleted by the author, but captured in my article) was downright childish and idiotic.
Yes problems are annoying, but throwing insults around helps no one and yes it does make us look bad. I get where people are coming from, to an extent, since some games do end up getting left in a terribly broken state for a long time and sometimes forever. However, in this case VP did good and continued working and now, as stated previously, The Witcher 2 seems fine. Their others ports are generally pretty decent too.
I just hope in future that this developer who got a massive amount of hate and CD Projekt RED can look past it somehow, for all the fans of their franchise on Linux.
Note: I personally spoke to this developer about publishing this with their approval, in the hopes that it might get a few people to re-think their initial attitude towards problems in games. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
I should stress, for our own record here that this is not the official word from Virtual Programming or CD Projekt RED. This is the personal opinion of an ex-VP developer.
Here's the issue: The Linux version of The Witcher 2 was released in a poor state, it had poor performance and just didn't really work well at all. It was later fixed-up and last time I tried it, the performance was absolutely fine for me. The real problem, is the amount of hate that was sent towards the porters Virtual Programming and directly to CD Projekt RED as well. Even I personally saw some of the hate that was sent their way and it was downright idiotic and absolutely uncalled for.
I will absolutely hold my hands up as well, I made mistakes around it since I simply didn't know enough at the time, and to be honest three years ago I was still learning a lot about everything. I later corrected what I said, as I always aim to.
Writing on reddit, this developer said (source):
QuoteI agree, things were not right on release... but the vocality of people went way beyond that. It was an all out hate campaign against VP, against CDPR for "lying about the port being native". I attempted to help people out in my own time and got absolutely roasted and abused for it.
The community needs to realise it simply cannot justify this sort of behaviour if they want to convince devs and publishers to support them. There is no excuse.
It seems we may have also seen a port of The Witcher 1 as well, as the developer also said (source):
QuoteThe vitriol was unbelievable. Yes we messed up the performance on release but we put it right. However a huge hate campaign ensued. Both VP and CDPR got lots of vengeful hate mail sent to them. I cannot help but feel this damaged CDPR's view of the Linux platform irrevocably.
They certainly didnt blame us, because they had us work on a Mac port of Witcher 1 to replace the non-functioning Wineskin version. The same port would have ran on Linux too with very little extra work, but they were not interested in releasing it.
There's also this post from another user, who said at the time The Witcher 2 released for Linux, CDProjekt apparently lost a fair amount on the Warsaw Stock Exchange. Apparently due to such a big backlash from the community about the initial release quality. I haven't verified that myself, but if true it would certainly make CDProjekt rather against doing another Linux port with anyone.
This is sad, really sad. I hope this makes a few people reconsider their attitude when talking to developer about the performance of ports. Performance can be worked on and fixed, burnt bridges are harder (and sometimes impossible) to fix.
This reminds me of the time the Blizzard President responded to a small petition asking for Linux ports of their games. The response to the petition was really nice to see from such a big company and truthfully the response I fully expected, but the original statement in reply to it from the petition author (now deleted by the author, but captured in my article) was downright childish and idiotic.
Yes problems are annoying, but throwing insults around helps no one and yes it does make us look bad. I get where people are coming from, to an extent, since some games do end up getting left in a terribly broken state for a long time and sometimes forever. However, in this case VP did good and continued working and now, as stated previously, The Witcher 2 seems fine. Their others ports are generally pretty decent too.
I just hope in future that this developer who got a massive amount of hate and CD Projekt RED can look past it somehow, for all the fans of their franchise on Linux.
Note: I personally spoke to this developer about publishing this with their approval, in the hopes that it might get a few people to re-think their initial attitude towards problems in games. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Well, they're right. But it was back the days, and I think we learned to be calmer by now. I remember that I was pretty disappointed that I couldn't play it on my rig (even meeting the specs), but kept my manners. It was one of the first AAA we got and everyone was looking forward to it. It was the first port we got really having huge issues. VP being new, not really native (I still say who cares as long as it works reasonably well), and the release was bad didn't help.
I think a lot of us learned in the past years. I was rather grateful that VP invested a lot of time and effort in fixing up TW2.
I hope VP has learned of their mistake pushing out the release with a performance like that isn't good. And I hope we've learned to work constructively with devs rather than being rude, bad attitude does not help, it gets us nowhere.
Amen here. Certainly VP didn't give up and their ports are now very serviceable - including TW2 current version.
I also believe we have learned a lot from that time.
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There's also this post from another user, who said at the time The Witcher 2 released for Linux, CDProjekt apparently lost a fair amount on the Warsaw Stock Exchange. Apparently due to such a big backlash from the community about the initial release quality. I haven't verified that myself, but if true it would certainly make CDProjekt rather against doing another Linux port with anyone.
I find that hard to believe. I mean, I thought the Linux gaming community was insignificantly small, and those who act like that is an even smaller percentage of that group?
Don't companies do business based on market numbers and such? I thought that was the whole point of capitalism / corporatism.
That said, I just find it a bit impractical for people to act like this. The best way to report a bug to just keep it on point, structured and as minimal as possible.
Then again, I kinda do understand why people get angry. I think it's important to see this from the side of the consumers as well. In fact, that is what you should do first. Remember that they bought a product that wasn't up to the quality expected of a game.
I'm not condoning anything, I'm just saying that this wouldn't have happened if the port was relatively solid before it released.
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So I think this is unproffecinal of CDPR and VR, and childish to be honest.
Also add the witcher3 coming to steamOS pre-order sale, thats kinde of illigal to do. Promising a product that later dont get released because of hate from the linux community, I know this was valves banner.
But add the gog support / cdpr support answers, we are working on a linux port, and the longer it took, the less anwers we got from them. Wtf? And we still dont know if its coming, at the moment we are just expecting it not to be out because of the silent treatment, is there a women in charge maybe?
Sry that was a joke xD.
BUT if this is true, what I read in the article, Im not okey with, its childish and unproffecianal.
This is a big gaming company, imagen WB, pixar or any other company, stopt selling or creating something you could pre order just becaue of hate or someone got offended? Imagen if you pre-ordered a car, factory new. But later they stopt, because some customers complained or hated to mutch on the product and somone at the car company got offended. WTF!?
Last edited by Zelox on 5 Jul 2017 at 11:21 am UTC
Also add the witcher3 coming to steamOS pre-order sale, thats kinde of illigal to do. Promising a product that later dont get released because of hate from the linux community, I know this was valves banner.
But add the gog support / cdpr support answers, we are working on a linux port, and the longer it took, the less anwers we got from them. Wtf? And we still dont know if its coming, at the moment we are just expecting it not to be out because of the silent treatment, is there a women in charge maybe?
Sry that was a joke xD.
BUT if this is true, what I read in the article, Im not okey with, its childish and unproffecianal.
This is a big gaming company, imagen WB, pixar or any other company, stopt selling or creating something you could pre order just becaue of hate or someone got offended? Imagen if you pre-ordered a car, factory new. But later they stopt, because some customers complained or hated to mutch on the product and somone at the car company got offended. WTF!?
Last edited by Zelox on 5 Jul 2017 at 11:21 am UTC
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This doesn't surprise me at all. I remember reading the Steam forums at the time and I couldn't believe the amount of over-the-top negative criticism being directed at VP. I felt sorry for those guys. They (VP) were doing the Linux gaming community a huge favor by porting TW2 and this the thanks they get. Sure, they didn't get it right the first time, it happens with any developer, but the comments should have remained civil and criticism should have been constructive.
VP have done a great job with Bioshock, Dirt Showdown and Saints Row. I can only hope they've forgiven us and are planning more big title ports for Linux. And frankly, I couldn't care less if the ports are not fully native, as they as they run well.
VP have done a great job with Bioshock, Dirt Showdown and Saints Row. I can only hope they've forgiven us and are planning more big title ports for Linux. And frankly, I couldn't care less if the ports are not fully native, as they as they run well.
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No, message porters take was....if you try to do it, and if you fail to deliver, you get threats and hate mail.
It is huge difference from just being discontent with Witcher 2 release which WAS buggy and slow. One is personal attack, which is just low and huge no. Another is criticism about your professional work - which is all fine. We all have it at some point in our lives.
NONE of that was justified. Doesn't mean we should call out badly done ports or releases. We should. But learn some decency.
i agree. this is not okay. in fact i think you are most correct. however. this also happens when a windows game launches sub standard. its unfortunate but it has become part of doing business in the gaming industry and honestly has nothing at all to do with Linux.
I do hope that this behaviour changes. it would be nice if Linux gamers were better than the rest of the gamers but i fear thats not going to happen
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Well, at the end of the day, we have still no real information about what happened. What would be very interesting is some feedback from VP now that they have done so many ports. I do really want to know if this is profitable for them. It is the most important question as it determines whether or not we will continue to have ports in the near future. If i remember correxctly, Aspyr said few months ago that they were on balance. What about VP?
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I never saw this conversation, but would of course have agreed that going personal after employees would be crossing the line by miles! With that said, dropping Linux and ignoring the majority just because we was the happy customers that never saw any need to go out there and look for a reddit thread to complain in is a bit unprofessional and will likely just worsen the situation. I can sympathize with developers that sometimes feels it's like the world is on their shoulders and that "nobody" is appreciating their hard effort, but the truth is that the majority that never speak a word is the happy customers and this is something that applies to literally everything in this world - not only in the gaming industry. I hope they won't let the trolls speak for our community and instead learn to ignore them.
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A lot of you guys only seem to see the money when it comes to the question whether to do a linux port or not. You are missing other important factors: Motivation and health. There are still people working on a port, not machines.
Personal threads, over the top criticism and such can take away a lot of motivation. When your employees have less motivation, they won't work as well and "efficient". So it might not be worth it any more.
But more important: Health (in this case mental health). If your employees might suffer from burnout, depression or alike, it also might be not worth any more. You might have made a little bit more money, but you might have lost the stability and integrity of your team, which will hurt you a lot more in the long run.
Personal threads, over the top criticism and such can take away a lot of motivation. When your employees have less motivation, they won't work as well and "efficient". So it might not be worth it any more.
But more important: Health (in this case mental health). If your employees might suffer from burnout, depression or alike, it also might be not worth any more. You might have made a little bit more money, but you might have lost the stability and integrity of your team, which will hurt you a lot more in the long run.
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We aren't better than others, that's just not looking outside the circle there.If I look at the ark bugs, I can confirm we are just as salty as any other community.
Still, that's my opinion, as your post is yours and opinions are welcome here :)
We have a lot of self entitled brats that never ever learned the meaning of respect.
I used to think we are better, but no, I had to revise that. I know *we* are better, but the developer won't see the difference between *we* and *them* 8-D.
So yes, we are a self-entitled bunch of salt bags spewing vile threats. I read phoronix yesterday, and I just closed it. The systemd mud slinging pro and contra are pretty bad.
I hope someday we learn to respect the software houses, and be nice to them.
Working with some single person companies, I can confirm these vile threats and salt is just a common human trait. Most humans seem somehow seem to feel entitled for $10k of work after paying $10. They usually also know exactly how you should do your work and never understand why things cost a lot of money and time. That's from a non-computing area.
So yes, this is exactly the same. We are humans, and I am ashamed of that.
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Well, they're right. But it was back the daysActually back in the days was 2000 or so...
I still have my first $230 quake the offering, official release for linux.
I have my original X3 box with compressed shirt in the shape of an X, signed by the CEO of Linux Game Publishing.
Back to that: I still have 20+ official linux game boxes and elite boxes for anyone caring to come and collect. See: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ArdvanBreemen/posts/Cs9EVrH5MED
.
Most of them with official licenses.
Anyway: the salt seemed to start when steam came to linux and linux gaming became "mainstream".
Last edited by Ardje on 5 Jul 2017 at 1:53 pm UTC
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I've patched my comment for you)Here's no place for the drama like this, seriously guys. It's a business. Everyone should be prepared for the stuff like this. I've heard that someone thrown bad fries in the face to McDonald's employer, but that's doesn't mean that Mc will start blocking this person or employer will never serve fries for him again, they will start from the cause, will make fries better. It's really silly behaviour.
Here's what would happen in my country - that customer would be banned from McDonalds, and likely arrested and charged with assault.
Here's no place for the drama like this, seriously guys. It's a business. Everyone should be prepared for the stuff like this. It's really silly behaviour. And we are happy)
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elbuglione 5 Jul 2017
We could organize a boycott where we would massify hundreds of negative notes for The Witcher 3 on Steam, claiming for the version of SteamOS that never came ...
See the results of similar campaigns, such as "GTA V" and its MODs.
At the same time, we could organize a positive rain on The Witcher 2 on Linux, because its current Linux Port works perfectly.
See the results of similar campaigns, such as "GTA V" and its MODs.
At the same time, we could organize a positive rain on The Witcher 2 on Linux, because its current Linux Port works perfectly.
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It's a shame we haven't got a port of Witcher 3 but "it's no big deal" - Just live with it.
You have a few choices:
- Don't buy it at all and forget about it, because it isn't on Linux.
- Buy it and play it using WINE on Linux.
- Buy it and play it on Windows, if you love the game so much. ( I did that for "DOOM" )
There is a huge count of alternative games that have Linux ports. Enjoy them, buy them and "show the love" back to Linux-supporting developers. More than 3000 Linux games on Steam. WOOHOO!!!
It is a waste of time, bemoaning the situation. During the recent Steam Summer Sale, I've loaded up on 10 more native Linux games beyond my previous collection.
No, you shouldn't vilify CD Projekt Red for not releasing on Linux. It's just childish and won't improve the situation.
Meanwhile enjoy Witcher 2 - which does have a full Linux release.
Last edited by g000h on 5 Jul 2017 at 4:32 pm UTC
You have a few choices:
- Don't buy it at all and forget about it, because it isn't on Linux.
- Buy it and play it using WINE on Linux.
- Buy it and play it on Windows, if you love the game so much. ( I did that for "DOOM" )
There is a huge count of alternative games that have Linux ports. Enjoy them, buy them and "show the love" back to Linux-supporting developers. More than 3000 Linux games on Steam. WOOHOO!!!
It is a waste of time, bemoaning the situation. During the recent Steam Summer Sale, I've loaded up on 10 more native Linux games beyond my previous collection.
No, you shouldn't vilify CD Projekt Red for not releasing on Linux. It's just childish and won't improve the situation.
Meanwhile enjoy Witcher 2 - which does have a full Linux release.
Last edited by g000h on 5 Jul 2017 at 4:32 pm UTC
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elbuglione 5 Jul 2017
It's a shame we haven't got a port of Witcher 3 but "it's no big deal" - Just live with it.
You have a few choices:
- Don't buy it at all and forget about it, because it isn't on Linux.
- Buy it and play it using WINE on Linux.
- Buy it and play it on Windows, if you love the game so much. ( I did that for "DOOM" )
There is a huge count of alternative games that have Linux ports. Enjoy them, buy them and "show the love" back to Linux-supporting developers. More than 3000 Linux games on Steam. WOOHOO!!!
It is a waste of time, bemoaning the situation. During the recent Steam Summer Sale, I've loaded up on 10 more native Linux games beyond my previous collection.
No, you shouldn't vilify CD Projekt Red for not releasing on Linux. It's just childish and won't improve the situation.
Meanwhile enjoy Witcher 2 - which does have a full Linux release.
If you are comfortable with your purchase, you should not make any complaints about it ...
But, I'm pretty sure that more than one consumer (especially GamingOnLinux users) bought The Witcher 3, because The Witcher 3 was advertised for SteamOS.
I do not see any complaints from Linux users, against RockStar for not having delivered GTA V for Linux ... that's so, because RockStar never promised anything.
THOSE ARE THE FACTS.
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elbuglione 5 Jul 2017
I repeat
I think @Liamdawe and @Shmerl are the ones to organize this massive complaint on Steam.
We could organize a boycott where we would massify hundreds of negative notes for The Witcher 3 on Steam, claiming for the version of SteamOS that never came ...
See the results of similar campaigns, such as "GTA V" and its MODs.
At the same time, we could organize a positive rain on The Witcher 2 on Linux, because its current Linux Port works perfectly.
I think @Liamdawe and @Shmerl are the ones to organize this massive complaint on Steam.
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omg 250+ messages, i didn't read lol.
I just had to write something on this big comment thread :P
I just had to write something on this big comment thread :P
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We could organize a boycott where we would massify hundreds of negative notes for The Witcher 3 on Steam, claiming for the version of SteamOS that never came ...
See the results of similar campaigns, such as "GTA V" and its MODs.
At the same time, we could organize a positive rain on The Witcher 2 on Linux, because its current Linux Port works perfectly.
I think @Liamdawe and @Shmerl are the ones to organize this massive complaint on Steam.
I'm not using Steam. Anyway, instead of negative reactions, it's better to provide positive ones. See here:
* https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/to_cd_projekt_red_bring_witcher_3_and_your_other_games_to_linux_please
* https://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/cyberpunk_2077_on_linux
So vote, and spread the word.
Last edited by Shmerl on 5 Jul 2017 at 4:56 pm UTC
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Yep, ballot stuffing is really going to help you. CDPR and Valve would be able to quickly identify the votes, what they are for, and remove them.
GOG pay attention to their wishlist. CDPR can too.
Last edited by Shmerl on 5 Jul 2017 at 5:05 pm UTC
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We could organize a boycott where we would massify hundreds of negative notes for The Witcher 3 on Steam, claiming for the version of SteamOS that never came ...
See the results of similar campaigns, such as "GTA V" and its MODs.
At the same time, we could organize a positive rain on The Witcher 2 on Linux, because its current Linux Port works perfectly.
Damn I really like your plan. The plan to show that we are not that small as they are think, and we could mess reviews up :D
1 Likes, Who?
The Internet is a reflection of the ( mostly ) global society, so unfortunately it includes those that are hateful, stupid and immature, as well as those that are polite, helpful and reasonable.
Without significant effort, you can't always tell whether an on-line persona spouting vitriol is genuine, or is acting as if a member of a group to tarnish that group's reputation; certainly, issues like GamerGate, and the direct abuse that jaycee describes suggest there are some individuals out there with profound mental problems.
Nonetheless, I have doubts that Internet ranting would have, in itself, caused the cancellation of TW3 on Linux; although if there were doubts about proceeding, it might have tipped the balance or strengthened the negative arguments.
Neither do I see the stock price related argument Liam linked to as credible. Firstly, you do not construct a balance sheet by including stock price movements, secondly TW3 on Linux was still a possibility a year later, and finally, there were actually no significant stock movements for CDPR on the Warsaw exchange in 2014. It was a quiet year in their dev cycle while they were ramping up for TW3. TW2 for Linux boosted revenue in a year when they actually reduced headcount in Poland, presumably to control costs in a low revenue year ( these are based on Warsaw stock exchange public data and filing ).
However, I do see parallels between TW3 and another significant Linux under-achievement. Both CDPR and CA seem to have had good discussions with Valve and made early positive statements about supporting SteamOS/Linux.
In the case of CA, older Total War games were already available on the Mac through Feral, and we now have almost all of the back catalog available for Linux. However, CA promised to update the "current" iteration of their engine ( Rome2 and Attila ) without seeming to realize how hard it would be for them to do this internally. Two years later, we have Attila but not Rome2, and ( for me anyway ) it is the least playable Total War game. It also seems they are not maintaining a Linux branch of their engine as Feral have provided the Total War-Warhammer versions for Linux.
The parallel with CDPR is their apparent intent to provide TW3 for Linux by making RedEngine cross platform and provide development tools for 3rd party use. For whatever reason ( likely the cost vs predicted revenue ), they abandoned the RedEngine port, and it is my guess that with it went TW3 for Linux.
The lack of a Linux version of RedEngine also probably means no Linux version of Cyberpunk 2077. As Cyberpunk 2077 is already in the asset and subsystem creation stage ( at a guess, 2H 2018 release ), and they are using a multiplayer-enabled version of RedEngine with additional capabilities like vehicles, I would be surprised if the engine also adds Linux or Vulkan support.
This does not mean TW3 will never be ported as a stand-alone game; just that there is not enough justification at the moment. And they could yet surprise us and include Linux in the new RedEngine...
Without significant effort, you can't always tell whether an on-line persona spouting vitriol is genuine, or is acting as if a member of a group to tarnish that group's reputation; certainly, issues like GamerGate, and the direct abuse that jaycee describes suggest there are some individuals out there with profound mental problems.
Nonetheless, I have doubts that Internet ranting would have, in itself, caused the cancellation of TW3 on Linux; although if there were doubts about proceeding, it might have tipped the balance or strengthened the negative arguments.
Neither do I see the stock price related argument Liam linked to as credible. Firstly, you do not construct a balance sheet by including stock price movements, secondly TW3 on Linux was still a possibility a year later, and finally, there were actually no significant stock movements for CDPR on the Warsaw exchange in 2014. It was a quiet year in their dev cycle while they were ramping up for TW3. TW2 for Linux boosted revenue in a year when they actually reduced headcount in Poland, presumably to control costs in a low revenue year ( these are based on Warsaw stock exchange public data and filing ).
However, I do see parallels between TW3 and another significant Linux under-achievement. Both CDPR and CA seem to have had good discussions with Valve and made early positive statements about supporting SteamOS/Linux.
In the case of CA, older Total War games were already available on the Mac through Feral, and we now have almost all of the back catalog available for Linux. However, CA promised to update the "current" iteration of their engine ( Rome2 and Attila ) without seeming to realize how hard it would be for them to do this internally. Two years later, we have Attila but not Rome2, and ( for me anyway ) it is the least playable Total War game. It also seems they are not maintaining a Linux branch of their engine as Feral have provided the Total War-Warhammer versions for Linux.
The parallel with CDPR is their apparent intent to provide TW3 for Linux by making RedEngine cross platform and provide development tools for 3rd party use. For whatever reason ( likely the cost vs predicted revenue ), they abandoned the RedEngine port, and it is my guess that with it went TW3 for Linux.
The lack of a Linux version of RedEngine also probably means no Linux version of Cyberpunk 2077. As Cyberpunk 2077 is already in the asset and subsystem creation stage ( at a guess, 2H 2018 release ), and they are using a multiplayer-enabled version of RedEngine with additional capabilities like vehicles, I would be surprised if the engine also adds Linux or Vulkan support.
This does not mean TW3 will never be ported as a stand-alone game; just that there is not enough justification at the moment. And they could yet surprise us and include Linux in the new RedEngine...
6 Likes, Who?
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