The Witcher 3 is something Linux users have been practically begging to have, but the problem is that it seems it will likely never come to Linux. An ex-Virtual Programming developer has taken to reddit explaining why this may have happened.
I should stress, for our own record here that this is not the official word from Virtual Programming or CD Projekt RED. This is the personal opinion of an ex-VP developer.
Here's the issue: The Linux version of The Witcher 2 was released in a poor state, it had poor performance and just didn't really work well at all. It was later fixed-up and last time I tried it, the performance was absolutely fine for me. The real problem, is the amount of hate that was sent towards the porters Virtual Programming and directly to CD Projekt RED as well. Even I personally saw some of the hate that was sent their way and it was downright idiotic and absolutely uncalled for.
I will absolutely hold my hands up as well, I made mistakes around it since I simply didn't know enough at the time, and to be honest three years ago I was still learning a lot about everything. I later corrected what I said, as I always aim to.
Writing on reddit, this developer said (source):
It seems we may have also seen a port of The Witcher 1 as well, as the developer also said (source):
There's also this post from another user, who said at the time The Witcher 2 released for Linux, CDProjekt apparently lost a fair amount on the Warsaw Stock Exchange. Apparently due to such a big backlash from the community about the initial release quality. I haven't verified that myself, but if true it would certainly make CDProjekt rather against doing another Linux port with anyone.
This is sad, really sad. I hope this makes a few people reconsider their attitude when talking to developer about the performance of ports. Performance can be worked on and fixed, burnt bridges are harder (and sometimes impossible) to fix.
This reminds me of the time the Blizzard President responded to a small petition asking for Linux ports of their games. The response to the petition was really nice to see from such a big company and truthfully the response I fully expected, but the original statement in reply to it from the petition author (now deleted by the author, but captured in my article) was downright childish and idiotic.
Yes problems are annoying, but throwing insults around helps no one and yes it does make us look bad. I get where people are coming from, to an extent, since some games do end up getting left in a terribly broken state for a long time and sometimes forever. However, in this case VP did good and continued working and now, as stated previously, The Witcher 2 seems fine. Their others ports are generally pretty decent too.
I just hope in future that this developer who got a massive amount of hate and CD Projekt RED can look past it somehow, for all the fans of their franchise on Linux.
Note: I personally spoke to this developer about publishing this with their approval, in the hopes that it might get a few people to re-think their initial attitude towards problems in games. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
I should stress, for our own record here that this is not the official word from Virtual Programming or CD Projekt RED. This is the personal opinion of an ex-VP developer.
Here's the issue: The Linux version of The Witcher 2 was released in a poor state, it had poor performance and just didn't really work well at all. It was later fixed-up and last time I tried it, the performance was absolutely fine for me. The real problem, is the amount of hate that was sent towards the porters Virtual Programming and directly to CD Projekt RED as well. Even I personally saw some of the hate that was sent their way and it was downright idiotic and absolutely uncalled for.
I will absolutely hold my hands up as well, I made mistakes around it since I simply didn't know enough at the time, and to be honest three years ago I was still learning a lot about everything. I later corrected what I said, as I always aim to.
Writing on reddit, this developer said (source):
QuoteI agree, things were not right on release... but the vocality of people went way beyond that. It was an all out hate campaign against VP, against CDPR for "lying about the port being native". I attempted to help people out in my own time and got absolutely roasted and abused for it.
The community needs to realise it simply cannot justify this sort of behaviour if they want to convince devs and publishers to support them. There is no excuse.
It seems we may have also seen a port of The Witcher 1 as well, as the developer also said (source):
QuoteThe vitriol was unbelievable. Yes we messed up the performance on release but we put it right. However a huge hate campaign ensued. Both VP and CDPR got lots of vengeful hate mail sent to them. I cannot help but feel this damaged CDPR's view of the Linux platform irrevocably.
They certainly didnt blame us, because they had us work on a Mac port of Witcher 1 to replace the non-functioning Wineskin version. The same port would have ran on Linux too with very little extra work, but they were not interested in releasing it.
There's also this post from another user, who said at the time The Witcher 2 released for Linux, CDProjekt apparently lost a fair amount on the Warsaw Stock Exchange. Apparently due to such a big backlash from the community about the initial release quality. I haven't verified that myself, but if true it would certainly make CDProjekt rather against doing another Linux port with anyone.
This is sad, really sad. I hope this makes a few people reconsider their attitude when talking to developer about the performance of ports. Performance can be worked on and fixed, burnt bridges are harder (and sometimes impossible) to fix.
This reminds me of the time the Blizzard President responded to a small petition asking for Linux ports of their games. The response to the petition was really nice to see from such a big company and truthfully the response I fully expected, but the original statement in reply to it from the petition author (now deleted by the author, but captured in my article) was downright childish and idiotic.
Yes problems are annoying, but throwing insults around helps no one and yes it does make us look bad. I get where people are coming from, to an extent, since some games do end up getting left in a terribly broken state for a long time and sometimes forever. However, in this case VP did good and continued working and now, as stated previously, The Witcher 2 seems fine. Their others ports are generally pretty decent too.
I just hope in future that this developer who got a massive amount of hate and CD Projekt RED can look past it somehow, for all the fans of their franchise on Linux.
Note: I personally spoke to this developer about publishing this with their approval, in the hopes that it might get a few people to re-think their initial attitude towards problems in games. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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The comments on this article are closed.
Quoting: GuestThe economics very likely don't actually work out for some of the larger titles. Yet.
With projects like Wine and dxvk, expenses are much lower than several years ago. So economics can work out, if it's done smart.
Quoting: GuestI've already explained to you both on here and on Reddit why the expenses are not "Minimal" as you think
I'm arguing they are less than in the past. Porting surely is becoming increasingly commoditized. And projects like vkd3d will make it easier even further.
Last edited by Shmerl on 5 April 2018 at 3:55 pm UTC
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Quoting: GuestBut I digress; even so, the porting costs and return on investment very likely aren't going to make anyone rich, and probably will just about break even, if there's minimal effort in getting something running. And that's assuming the porting house reduces the cost - which might not be done, because their return on investment is not charging less, but needing less effort for the same cost (if it's anything similar to other, non-gaming, industries I've had experience with)
The way I see it, wrapper style porting itself becomes cheaper and easier, to the point that studios can do it in house. Wine and dxvk / vkd3d can allow them to do it for their DX11 / DX12 titles that don't have Vulkan backend yet.
Sure, they'll need to support the result, but it's about the bulk of the actual work of translation. Support is always some cost no matter what method is used. But the more this is a commodity, the less concerns studios would have that they are going to lose money. Breaking even is already a huge win. Linux market is still small, and no one expects some insane profits like in other segments. But as long as it can be made profitable, it's easier for studios to get on board.
Last edited by Shmerl on 5 April 2018 at 5:55 pm UTC
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Nevertheless Apr 9, 2018
Quoting: KallionI was just browsing around for news on gaming & especially Witcher 3 (which I played when I had Windows, that I eventually gave up on), and was led here. I know this is a bit old of a post but felt the need to add in my two cents. In this case, I'm going to look at it from both the personal and corporate "shades" of the developer. They are business owners or work for a business, and running one has its demands. So, here goes:
First and foremost, everything in the world and I mean everything, is relations. If you want to get something done, you need to know how and when to apply a specific method and strategy. In the case of Linux, for a lot of developers, it's a "romantic" relationship. Hence it relies heavily on the personal/gratitude factor. Why? Simple realism. We, as Linux users, are nothing compared to the overall market share. End of story. We don't have the numbers to squeak and scream like Windows users do most of the time. Developers see they have over 90% of the desktop/laptop systems in the world and they have to comply, even if they hate it. They need the income to survive.
For many, Linux is first and foremost an idea, a community that comes together to achieve something better. That's how a lot of people I met see it as. Some of them maneuver around their corporate structure to convince the higher-ups to make things happen for it. However, if we, as Linux users, resort to petty insults and attacks... there goes that bridge.
On the more ruthless business aspect, losing a -registered- 1% of a potential user base means nothing. So, to the people that send out flame/hate emails... know the group you're in. It's simple mathematics. With greater numbers, we get more political clout. Where we are, in the desktop/laptop market, we got nothing. This kind of behavior does undermine the work a lot of distro groups attempt: to bring in more people into Linux. Even I try to bring more people in because I believe in the principles of the platform. Witcher 3 sold 25 million copies. The 15,000 signatures on the GOG for a Linux port is a drop in the ocean.
In any case...
It benefits us much more to go in with supportive criticism and patience to build our user base as a platform than stand at the top of our mountain and shoot poison. At the wrong people. The developers themselves answer to financiers, to shareholders, to distributors/publishers and who knows who else. Those are the ones who directly and indirectly enforce policies.
Also, if a dev loses time with being attacked for trying to support a smaller community, they'll give it up altogether. No, it's not unprofessional on their part. Many of them just try to help, because of a variety of reasons. Bad products are rarely their responsibility. The tough deadlines are not placed by the graphic artists or the coders or even the team leaders. Unfinished products are pushed forward by banks and executives. Those are not the ones who receive the hate emails. It's the smaller people, the very ones who can influence the decision makers by saying "hey, we completed our financial goals for this year, how about we port this to another platform or two and have a better distribution agreement with some extra cash that may bring us some bonuses?" Or something along those lines. They speak the language of the greedy people to get something different/better done. That's how they get the green light to port something. It's not just the gaming industry. I know it happens on a heck of a lot more.
That's the essence of business. That's how we made our world today. Money. As Linux users, we currently don't have the numbers to play the entitlement bravado. A lot of distro makers know that, and so does a decent part (that I know of) of our community.
Linux needs to be supported more. Back-lashing and pushing back will have that exact result: pushing back. It all comes down to what we want. As for the complainers/victims/very-special-snowflakes, I wish them a healthy return to Windows and a long-lasting, loving relationship with EA. For those who know a bit about how the gaming industry works. :)
I remember an old saying:
"In the 80s, gamers compromised, in the 2000's, they demand"
We might consider adding:
"In the 2010s, they cut your head off if they lose 1fps!"
By the way, the "20% slower" is an OpenGL comparison to DirectX. Don't get me started on AMD's proprietary OpenGL speed deficiencies on their latest cards.
Be well. Peace.
An Arch user.
Completely correct! You cannot force your way with <1% share. It makes people hate you and make fun of you. I'm always shocked when I see Linux users trying to do it.
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I just came back and saw the thread revive. Both camps it would seem. Also, it's understandable of wanting to have a larger voice, but it's something we'll have to win on our own. Linux is community-based, right? We don't have a mother company to hide behind and blame when things go wrong.
The trend I've seen is that Linux is starting to grow in its user base. This is because of the wrongdoings of both Microsoft and Apple. Something we should be taking advantage of & welcome the new people in. With that being said, from the 1% of registered Linux users, there is a great number of them that uses dual-boot, mostly for games. So, with Windows' spy-core & account registrations, they are recorded as Windows Users.
Why am I mentioning that? It's because we are in a catch-22 phase. Developers want more users & users want more titles (from devs). So, if we indeed want to broaden our community (which indeed brings out the best in humanity on the biggest collaborative project on the planet) & not be frowned upon as elitist snobs, all we have to do is two things:
1. Welcome new users & mentor them as to why they don't need Windows (provided we're not using them either - otherwise we'll never truly convince them)
2. Be grateful to developers that choose to support us and maintain an open dialog with constructive criticism; but above all, reasoning, patience and the collaborative spirit that Linux has taught us.
I've been a Linux-only user for over a year now & I was forced to do some changes in the way I was used to. I had (and still have) my ups and downs with things (my eyes are set on AMD for a variety of reasons that are too long to expand here), but in general, I'm not going back. I found my place with Linux and so did all the people I suggested it (and supported) to. Not to mention the people who become intrigued by the platform, since I tend to move around with a Linux laptop, which to many is... an exotic appearance. On the other side, I've had healthy communications and feedbacks with developers (proprietary software) & they are more than happy to work on things and improve their products and services.
Basically, it's all about being welcoming, polite and not "curse" like truckers who haven't seen a woman since the dawn of time! Sorry, had to make the analogy, based on what I've read.
Because down the line, in a development corporation, the CEO will go to the Project Manager and the CFO & see the numbers. Guess what all three of them are more used to reading. That's right! Spreadsheets & market data provided by their backbone subscriptions. As I commented before, we have to win them (devs) and users a different way. That's what the Linux Foundation & Canonical are doing.
And if anyone seeks a refund for a game, it can be done respectfully. There is always a way. It's the will that suffers.
In short, the 2 ways above. That's how we increase our user base and our software catalog. We support both & work around the problems. If a basher's Linux installation encounters a problem, I don't suspect he rips the hard drive off, smashes it on the ground & then demands it to be functional in order to reinstall. Same with the devs. Humans, machines, they all break.
Anyhow, that's my humble two cents.
The trend I've seen is that Linux is starting to grow in its user base. This is because of the wrongdoings of both Microsoft and Apple. Something we should be taking advantage of & welcome the new people in. With that being said, from the 1% of registered Linux users, there is a great number of them that uses dual-boot, mostly for games. So, with Windows' spy-core & account registrations, they are recorded as Windows Users.
Why am I mentioning that? It's because we are in a catch-22 phase. Developers want more users & users want more titles (from devs). So, if we indeed want to broaden our community (which indeed brings out the best in humanity on the biggest collaborative project on the planet) & not be frowned upon as elitist snobs, all we have to do is two things:
1. Welcome new users & mentor them as to why they don't need Windows (provided we're not using them either - otherwise we'll never truly convince them)
2. Be grateful to developers that choose to support us and maintain an open dialog with constructive criticism; but above all, reasoning, patience and the collaborative spirit that Linux has taught us.
I've been a Linux-only user for over a year now & I was forced to do some changes in the way I was used to. I had (and still have) my ups and downs with things (my eyes are set on AMD for a variety of reasons that are too long to expand here), but in general, I'm not going back. I found my place with Linux and so did all the people I suggested it (and supported) to. Not to mention the people who become intrigued by the platform, since I tend to move around with a Linux laptop, which to many is... an exotic appearance. On the other side, I've had healthy communications and feedbacks with developers (proprietary software) & they are more than happy to work on things and improve their products and services.
Basically, it's all about being welcoming, polite and not "curse" like truckers who haven't seen a woman since the dawn of time! Sorry, had to make the analogy, based on what I've read.
Because down the line, in a development corporation, the CEO will go to the Project Manager and the CFO & see the numbers. Guess what all three of them are more used to reading. That's right! Spreadsheets & market data provided by their backbone subscriptions. As I commented before, we have to win them (devs) and users a different way. That's what the Linux Foundation & Canonical are doing.
And if anyone seeks a refund for a game, it can be done respectfully. There is always a way. It's the will that suffers.
In short, the 2 ways above. That's how we increase our user base and our software catalog. We support both & work around the problems. If a basher's Linux installation encounters a problem, I don't suspect he rips the hard drive off, smashes it on the ground & then demands it to be functional in order to reinstall. Same with the devs. Humans, machines, they all break.
Anyhow, that's my humble two cents.
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Quoting: KallionAnd if anyone seeks a refund for a game, it can be done respectfully. There is always a way. It's the will that suffers.One can't refund a Steam game after a number of hours played, so it's not always possible, regardless of how civilized we are.
On the other hand, the loud "truckers" don't represent everyone, so there's no valid reason for a game developer/publisher to make the entire community suffer. It's definitely not fair towards the whole lot of good people who are civilized and grateful for whatever lands in the GNU/Linux world. That's why deciding to withdraw from making a Linux build based on negative feedback is not professional, because it's a shortsighted decision.
With early access and closed alphas/betas being common, and especially with so many GNU/Linux geeks happy to test such releases and share constructive feedback, you'd say the developers would tap into that kind of a resource. But in this case CDPR found it easier to highlight the "truckers", grab their toys and move away.
Just because we call them out for being unprofessional about it doesn't mean we're disrespectful, nor wrong. It's just how it is. Many of us can easily understand if they come out to say they don't have the resources necessary to produce a GNU/Linux build for a game, because it takes experienced developers (with GNU/Linux) to make it happen. So why not be truthful about the real problem? Not enough resources? Fine, then they should be fair about it, not punish everyone else if that's their only problem and they actually have the talented developers, time and money required to produce a GNU/Linux build.
If we would all pull out based on negative feedback, the world would "stop" in a matter of days. On top of that, isn't ignoring all the good people disrespectful coming from a developer/publisher?
Last edited by kneekoo on 30 April 2018 at 11:51 am UTC
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slaapliedje Apr 30, 2018
Maybe if we all pitched in and sent them hookers and blow, they'd come around and port the other two Witcher games? Hookers can be dressed as penguins, so they know it was from us.
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[users-only][/users-only]
Who knows what might motivate them, but having both 1+3 on GNU/Linux would be great.
Spoiler, click me
I don't know... after all that fun they cum up with the Bitcher 4 instead. :D
I really hope I didn't make a mess with this pun, but it was right there for the taking. Anyway: spoiler + logged in only.
I really hope I didn't make a mess with this pun, but it was right there for the taking. Anyway: spoiler + logged in only.
Who knows what might motivate them, but having both 1+3 on GNU/Linux would be great.
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Quoting: GuestIt's called "Signal to noise ratio". There was far more hatred than praise, even after we fixed all the problems.
Emotional nonsense. Any business that listens to that has no right to exist.
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Quoting: GuestIt also really helped that you have been instigating that negativity ever since the launch of TW2. At times you have practically been begging on IRC for someone to fall for a flamebait so that you can keep assuring yourself that you are truly the victim in this. Your initial TW2 port was bad and instead of working towards fixing your tarnished reputation you have been pointing again and again back to the bad port you released and how the community wronged you so. You have since made ports that people considered of good quality but instead of turning the focus towards those good ports and getting on with it you must always fall back to TW2. To put it bluntly, move the fuck on.Quoting: kneekooOn the other hand, the loud "truckers" don't represent everyone, so there's no valid reason for a game developer/publisher to make the entire community suffer. It's definitely not fair towards the whole lot of good people who are civilized and grateful for whatever lands in the GNU/Linux world. That's why deciding to withdraw from making a Linux build based on negative feedback is not professional, because it's a shortsighted decision
It's called "Signal to noise ratio". There was far more hatred than praise, even after we fixed all the problems. Even 3 years on I saw people blasting the port saying how poor it was, even though the problems they were quoting had long been fixed.
Ultimately the damage is now done. It is very unlikely CDPR will change their minds at this point.
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