Game developer Atlus, who make the popular Persona series have issued a DMCA take-down against the developers of popular PS3 emulator RPCS3.
From what Atlus put out publicly:
You might have heard earlier today that we issued a DMCA takedown notice involving emulation developer group RPCS3 and their Patreon page. Yes, it’s true.
They continued on, noting that they want their fans to get the best experience possible. It's a fair point, but this is likely the wrong way to go about it.
Essentially, Atlus are annoyed that people are emulating their games, like Persona 5. So they moved to contact Patreon directly to request they take down the Patreon pages of RPCS3 developers. This is without Atlus first getting in touch with those developers, which is a pretty blunt and nasty tactic in my opinion.
Thankfully, Patreon themselves have denied the request, given the fact that the Patreon page doesn't actually infringe on anyone's copyrights. As an act of caution, all mentions of Persona 5 from the official RPCS3 site and their Patreon pages have been removed.
The RPCS3 developers have said they don't "promote piracy nor do we allow it under any circumstances" and they've asked everyone to be nice about it.
They confirmed that they will continue to work on RPCS3, as I feel they should.
You can read what happened in the RPCS3 developers own words on reddit here. You can also see the official statement Atlus have put on their own site here.
Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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The comments on this article are closed.
Quoting: qptain NemoQuoting: ajgpAs for a 'pay what you want model' its unfeasibleCitation needed, as they say.
I've got an example in the other direction. The extremely awesome paint application Krita. New features are added with the help of a yearly kickstarter. Anyone who chooses not to support the kickstarter gets to download the application for free, no features withheld whatsoever. This program is slowly getting better than anything I have ever seen before.
http://www.krita.org
2 Likes, Who?
And Holy crap, there was a new version released this very day! Joy!
1 Likes, Who?
Quoting: ShmerlHow is it even applicable with DMCA? Emulation and reverse engineering is legal. No one should be nice to bullies who abuse the law and issue illegal takedowns.While you're not wrong you're not right either. Under normal circumstances reverse engineering and emulation is legal. The problem is that under the DMCA circumventing DRM for any reason is illegal even if it's for a normally legal reason such as reverse engineering and emulation.
Last edited by Scoopta on 28 September 2017 at 11:21 pm UTC
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qptain Nemo Sep 29, 2017
Quoting: ScooptaWhile you're not wrong you're not right either. Under normal circumstances reverse engineering and emulation is legal. The problem is that under the DMCA circumventing DRM for any reason is illegal even if it's for a normally legal reason such as reverse engineering and emulation.Wouldn't that only apply to people who actually use the emulator and the game together or try to distribute them together though? The emulator alone doesn't circumvent the DRM of Persona 5 if there is any, the developers of the emulator don't distribute Persona 5 with or without the emulator. There is no connection between the two products aside from potential interoperability. Unless potential interoperability between two programs becomes grounds for IP infringement, there is no case to make. If I screengrab Atlus's assets and start making illegal derivative works in Krita, it doesn't mean they can go after Krita developers now.
1 Likes, Who?
Quoting: qptain NemoYeah that's true but I think the devs were going for a "you're promoting an illegal activity" kind of stance. The problem is by telling people to dump their own games the RPCS3 devs are promoting DRM circumvention which is illegal(in the US).Quoting: ScooptaWhile you're not wrong you're not right either. Under normal circumstances reverse engineering and emulation is legal. The problem is that under the DMCA circumventing DRM for any reason is illegal even if it's for a normally legal reason such as reverse engineering and emulation.Wouldn't that only apply to people who actually use the emulator and the game together or try to distribute them together though? The emulator alone doesn't circumvent the DRM of Persona 5 if there is any, the developers of the emulator don't distribute Persona 5 with or without the emulator. There is no connection between the two products aside from potential interoperability. Unless potential interoperability between two programs becomes grounds for IP infringement, there is no case to make. If I screengrab Atlus's assets and start making illegal derivative works in Krita, it doesn't mean they can go after Krita developers now.
1 Likes, Who?
". Unfortunately, when our content is illegally circumvented and potentially made available for free, in a format we do not think delivers the experience and quality we intend, it undermines our ability to do so by diverting potential support from new audiences."
they are absolutely right.
emulators arent perfect, if you think the old zsnes emulator is perfect, youre playig wrong.
you need at least 3ghz to properly emulate an Snes:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/
the video they sho is hard to notice, here is an comparission to make it more clear, the difference between emulators:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doNLo-mn8Pw
can you tell what is the correct speed to run this game? without the real hardware to know how the game should run?
now just imagine how hard it is to run an ps3.
many computer gamers think they are smarth while the truth is they're computer illiterates.
they complain at the lack of 4K but dont mind putting an gigant gap between each monitor on a multi moitor setup, break the aspect ratio etc.
emulators arent perfect, they take years to become perfect and in the mean time a lot of people are "guinea pigs", spoil the game experience with a lot of bugs.
its hard to tell if an game is bad because its not funny or because you had an bad experience with tons of glitches that shouldnt be there.
even worse, when they game has real glitches and the player cant tell if its the emulator fault or game fault.
or when glitches are part of an culture, like missingNO and all the legends arround him.
when ninteno tried to relaunch nes/snes games, i saw a lot of people complaining that "you can play this games for free" on pc, ignoring that they arent really free and the emulators arent accurate at all.
i saw emulators distorting the pitch of the musics, that simply didnt worth using then.
Atlus may be wrong trying to sue while the copyright law dont allow then to, but their argument was right.
they cant make an profit proting the game for pc, if everyone on pc had played the game already.
they cant afford an propper port.
they cant justify the sale.
and many people who had an bad experience with the game will lose the interest.
they are absolutely right.
emulators arent perfect, if you think the old zsnes emulator is perfect, youre playig wrong.
you need at least 3ghz to properly emulate an Snes:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/
the video they sho is hard to notice, here is an comparission to make it more clear, the difference between emulators:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doNLo-mn8Pw
can you tell what is the correct speed to run this game? without the real hardware to know how the game should run?
now just imagine how hard it is to run an ps3.
many computer gamers think they are smarth while the truth is they're computer illiterates.
they complain at the lack of 4K but dont mind putting an gigant gap between each monitor on a multi moitor setup, break the aspect ratio etc.
emulators arent perfect, they take years to become perfect and in the mean time a lot of people are "guinea pigs", spoil the game experience with a lot of bugs.
its hard to tell if an game is bad because its not funny or because you had an bad experience with tons of glitches that shouldnt be there.
even worse, when they game has real glitches and the player cant tell if its the emulator fault or game fault.
or when glitches are part of an culture, like missingNO and all the legends arround him.
when ninteno tried to relaunch nes/snes games, i saw a lot of people complaining that "you can play this games for free" on pc, ignoring that they arent really free and the emulators arent accurate at all.
i saw emulators distorting the pitch of the musics, that simply didnt worth using then.
Atlus may be wrong trying to sue while the copyright law dont allow then to, but their argument was right.
they cant make an profit proting the game for pc, if everyone on pc had played the game already.
they cant afford an propper port.
they cant justify the sale.
and many people who had an bad experience with the game will lose the interest.
0 Likes
Before I get down to what I have to say here, I'm not a legal professional, merely a layman who is well read on the subject, take any and every thing I say on these topics with a large grain of salt (and maybe a squirt of citrus :D).
17 USC§1201(2):
That was one that came into effect as part of the DMCA. It's relevant here because Atlus/Sega will at least try to argue (in court should it reach that point) that the primary purpose of this particular emulator is as a means of circumvention, that it has no other commercially significant purpose and that the use of whatever mentions of their game existed on the developers' pages effectively act as marketing for the emulator as a means of DRM circumvention. That last is probably the hardest to argue against in any sort of effective manner, and hence is likely why the solution is what it is.
Sony v Bleem hardly enters into the case here. That case was explicitly about the use of screenshots of Sony games made using their product as used specifically for marketing their product (commercial emulator with screenshots on it's box). The case directly didn't address the legalities entangled in emulation at all and predated the effective date for the part of the USC quoted above.
Sony v Connectix (another commercial emulation case from the same period) is a little more instructive as it addresses the legalities involved in reverse engineering the Sony PS BIOS (much like the case in Atari v Nintendo involving the 10NES chip) but again this case also precedes the effective date of the above quoted law.
To my knowledge the legality of emulation itself has never been tested in the US courts since the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA took effect (nor prior, properly speaking). One major reason for this is that most emulation software is not developed by large companies who have the resources to fight such cases and an incentive to do so, but instead by individuals who, even should they have the help of significant groups like the EFF, typically can't afford to see such a case through all the filings that will happen prior to seeing the inside of a court house let alone through the hearings themselves. Another significant reason for such legality never being tested in court is that the involved corporate stakes holders don't bring cases in such a manner as to ever have that legality come up, due in large part to fears of what it would mean if such a case happened to be seen through and the courts were to rule "in favor of" emulators similarly to VCRs in Sony v Universal. That is a precedent they absolutely don't ever want to risk for fairly obvious reasons, and hence they always find an adjacent line to sue on (should they even need to bring suit at all).
17 USC§1201(2):
QuoteNo person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that—
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person’s knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.
That was one that came into effect as part of the DMCA. It's relevant here because Atlus/Sega will at least try to argue (in court should it reach that point) that the primary purpose of this particular emulator is as a means of circumvention, that it has no other commercially significant purpose and that the use of whatever mentions of their game existed on the developers' pages effectively act as marketing for the emulator as a means of DRM circumvention. That last is probably the hardest to argue against in any sort of effective manner, and hence is likely why the solution is what it is.
Quoting: Smoke39I think attacking emulators is short-sighted and shows a lack of respect for games as an art form.
Also, the legality of emulators has been tested in court. Bleem died because of legal fees, but they won their case.
Sony v Bleem hardly enters into the case here. That case was explicitly about the use of screenshots of Sony games made using their product as used specifically for marketing their product (commercial emulator with screenshots on it's box). The case directly didn't address the legalities entangled in emulation at all and predated the effective date for the part of the USC quoted above.
Sony v Connectix (another commercial emulation case from the same period) is a little more instructive as it addresses the legalities involved in reverse engineering the Sony PS BIOS (much like the case in Atari v Nintendo involving the 10NES chip) but again this case also precedes the effective date of the above quoted law.
To my knowledge the legality of emulation itself has never been tested in the US courts since the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA took effect (nor prior, properly speaking). One major reason for this is that most emulation software is not developed by large companies who have the resources to fight such cases and an incentive to do so, but instead by individuals who, even should they have the help of significant groups like the EFF, typically can't afford to see such a case through all the filings that will happen prior to seeing the inside of a court house let alone through the hearings themselves. Another significant reason for such legality never being tested in court is that the involved corporate stakes holders don't bring cases in such a manner as to ever have that legality come up, due in large part to fears of what it would mean if such a case happened to be seen through and the courts were to rule "in favor of" emulators similarly to VCRs in Sony v Universal. That is a precedent they absolutely don't ever want to risk for fairly obvious reasons, and hence they always find an adjacent line to sue on (should they even need to bring suit at all).
1 Likes, Who?
"Piracy is itself a solution to a problem: mismatch between rigid pricing, and people's resources."
i live in a third world country, even then, when i saw an unfair price in something, i understood that if i want to buy this, i have to study and work hard in order to buy it, and in the mean time FIND SOMETHING ELSE that i can buy, to enjoy my time.
i rented games, borrowed from friends and lent then my games in return, joined the allowance for months, sold games, gone to friends hoses to play. and study hard in order to get an job to buy the games.
nowadays people are like: why the hell should i put any effort into buying this if i can pirate it?
people puting effort into learn something, lead to cheaper laborhood wich lead to better quality products for cheaper.
dont have money to buy something? just look at what you can do with the money that you have.
braid developer didnt had money to make an AAA game, he made an indie, sold millions and the second game from him costed 40 millions to develop.
when people gave him a chance, they werent comparing his product with an AAA game they could have "for free" if they pirate it, they were comparing to what they could afford for an simmiliar price.
"well.. actually, an EU report stated that piracy isn't a problem at all:
https://thenextweb.com/eu/2017/09/21/eu-paid-report-concluded-piracy-isnt-harmful-tried-hide-findings/#.tnw_f90lLQ56";
yes, piracy dont kill big companies, it kill the small ones who try to grow and compete with then.
without piracy:
i cant afford this 60U$D game, the only game i can afford is this 6U$D one.
^millions of people doing it, some day the company grow an can make better games, competition make the prices go down.
with piracy:
why the hell should i spent 6U$D for this shit game when i can download this AAA for free on piratebay?
" Sometimes piracy (i.e. free redistribution of paid content sans DRM), is a means of satisfying the FSF needs and rights of humans. "
LOL what?
Bill gates itself said:
its easier to compete with linux when there is piracy than when there isnt.
just think about it:
we have 1~3% marketshare, and 25% of the games on steam, are avaliable for linux, and some games run better on it (even if they dont have native support)
26% of the persons who use windows, pirate it.
if they didnt had piracy, they probably would be using linux, we would have something like 27~30% marketshare, more companys would port their games to linux, more people would know about the performance advantages and with more games it would be less likely that one game they want to play isnt avaliable for linux, so even more than those 30% would migrate to linux.
piracy isnt helping us, piracy is helping MS, Adobe etc to keep their monopoly.
"It's GNU or nothing? Who would even pirate (or buy) a text/code editor when there are so many excellent free alternatives around."
i can say the same for photoshop, oh wait, people do pirate photoshop!
i live in a third world country, even then, when i saw an unfair price in something, i understood that if i want to buy this, i have to study and work hard in order to buy it, and in the mean time FIND SOMETHING ELSE that i can buy, to enjoy my time.
i rented games, borrowed from friends and lent then my games in return, joined the allowance for months, sold games, gone to friends hoses to play. and study hard in order to get an job to buy the games.
nowadays people are like: why the hell should i put any effort into buying this if i can pirate it?
people puting effort into learn something, lead to cheaper laborhood wich lead to better quality products for cheaper.
dont have money to buy something? just look at what you can do with the money that you have.
braid developer didnt had money to make an AAA game, he made an indie, sold millions and the second game from him costed 40 millions to develop.
when people gave him a chance, they werent comparing his product with an AAA game they could have "for free" if they pirate it, they were comparing to what they could afford for an simmiliar price.
"well.. actually, an EU report stated that piracy isn't a problem at all:
https://thenextweb.com/eu/2017/09/21/eu-paid-report-concluded-piracy-isnt-harmful-tried-hide-findings/#.tnw_f90lLQ56";
yes, piracy dont kill big companies, it kill the small ones who try to grow and compete with then.
without piracy:
i cant afford this 60U$D game, the only game i can afford is this 6U$D one.
^millions of people doing it, some day the company grow an can make better games, competition make the prices go down.
with piracy:
why the hell should i spent 6U$D for this shit game when i can download this AAA for free on piratebay?
" Sometimes piracy (i.e. free redistribution of paid content sans DRM), is a means of satisfying the FSF needs and rights of humans. "
LOL what?
Bill gates itself said:
its easier to compete with linux when there is piracy than when there isnt.
just think about it:
we have 1~3% marketshare, and 25% of the games on steam, are avaliable for linux, and some games run better on it (even if they dont have native support)
26% of the persons who use windows, pirate it.
if they didnt had piracy, they probably would be using linux, we would have something like 27~30% marketshare, more companys would port their games to linux, more people would know about the performance advantages and with more games it would be less likely that one game they want to play isnt avaliable for linux, so even more than those 30% would migrate to linux.
piracy isnt helping us, piracy is helping MS, Adobe etc to keep their monopoly.
"It's GNU or nothing? Who would even pirate (or buy) a text/code editor when there are so many excellent free alternatives around."
i can say the same for photoshop, oh wait, people do pirate photoshop!
2 Likes, Who?
Quoting: elmapul"It's GNU or nothing? Who would even pirate (or buy) a text/code editor when there are so many excellent free alternatives around."Apples and oranges.
i can say the same for photoshop, oh wait, people do pirate photoshop!
EDIT:
Quoting: elmapulthey cant make an profit proting the game for pc, if everyone on pc had played the game already.If someone already owns the game on a console, they're not likely to buy it for pc. If they pirated the console version to play with an emulator, they're not likely to pay for the game anyway. This argument is pretty much nonsense.
Last edited by tuubi on 29 September 2017 at 12:34 pm UTC
2 Likes, Who?
Quoting: elmapul". Unfortunately, when our content is illegally circumvented and potentially made available for free, in a format we do not think delivers the experience and quality we intend, it undermines our ability to do so by diverting potential support from new audiences."SNES emulation is actually pretty much perfect. SNES emulation is incredibly accurate. Anything newer though and that accuracy more or less falls apart.
they are absolutely right.
emulators arent perfect, if you think the old zsnes emulator is perfect, youre playig wrong.
you need at least 3ghz to properly emulate an Snes:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator/
the video they sho is hard to notice, here is an comparission to make it more clear, the difference between emulators:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doNLo-mn8Pw
can you tell what is the correct speed to run this game? without the real hardware to know how the game should run?
now just imagine how hard it is to run an ps3.
many computer gamers think they are smarth while the truth is they're computer illiterates.
they complain at the lack of 4K but dont mind putting an gigant gap between each monitor on a multi moitor setup, break the aspect ratio etc.
emulators arent perfect, they take years to become perfect and in the mean time a lot of people are "guinea pigs", spoil the game experience with a lot of bugs.
its hard to tell if an game is bad because its not funny or because you had an bad experience with tons of glitches that shouldnt be there.
even worse, when they game has real glitches and the player cant tell if its the emulator fault or game fault.
or when glitches are part of an culture, like missingNO and all the legends arround him.
when ninteno tried to relaunch nes/snes games, i saw a lot of people complaining that "you can play this games for free" on pc, ignoring that they arent really free and the emulators arent accurate at all.
i saw emulators distorting the pitch of the musics, that simply didnt worth using then.
Atlus may be wrong trying to sue while the copyright law dont allow then to, but their argument was right.
they cant make an profit proting the game for pc, if everyone on pc had played the game already.
they cant afford an propper port.
they cant justify the sale.
and many people who had an bad experience with the game will lose the interest.
0 Likes
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