Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV to both receive expansions in November

QuotePatches cannot objectively be both free and not-free at the same time.

Here, there is the logical error you are making.

Quoting: Colombo

QuotePatches cannot objectively be both free and not-free at the same time.

Here, there is the logical error you are making.

Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

Quoting: Colombo

QuoteI'm sorry, but what? I get patches for each Paradox game I own every couple of months that I can download without paying a cent. That seems like (one of) the definition(s) of "free" to me.

QuoteUm... are they not free? Last time I looked, Paradox has never charged us for a patch.

Last time I looked, post-release support was critical to continued success of game. Game that was released broken and not patched up was often heavily criticized. If devs announce that they will stop supporting game (i.e., patching bugfixes) when there is a long list of bugs (especially after newly released DLC/expansion), they would often trash their reputation and sales.

If there is such expectation, and previously, while Paradox was known for releasing games in state that can be described as open beta, it was also known for eventually fixing all the bugs and people bought their knowing and expecting that, then it is not "free". It is part of the price I bought the game for.

I say it again, if on one say you say that these patches are "free", but on other said complain that some other company stopped support and didn't release patches (or that some product is less good because it wasn't patched), than something is wrong with your opinion consistency.

Well, sure, if you assume that continued support in the form of patches is "baked in" to the initial sale price then they're technically not free, but that seems to be a stretch.

Also, how much should go into a patch before you no longer consider it simply part of the purchase price? Bug fixes, sure, but what about new content that was never part of the original product? For instance, several patches for both Crusader Kings II and Europa Universalis IV have substantially altered and expanded the map. It seems rather self-serving (for lack of a better term) to insist that these are nothing more than an expected part of the initial purchase.

Quoting: Colombo

QuotePatches cannot objectively be both free and not-free at the same time.

Here, there is the logical error you are making.

How can it be a logical error to essentially quote one of the foundational axioms of symbolic logic? I can imagine it being an error, but not a logical one.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Colombo

QuotePatches cannot objectively be both free and not-free at the same time.

Here, there is the logical error you are making.

How can it be a logical error to essentially quote one of the foundational axioms of symbolic logic? I can imagine it being an error, but not a logical one.

I've already reminded him that Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Colombo

QuotePatches cannot objectively be both free and not-free at the same time.

Here, there is the logical error you are making.

How can it be a logical error to essentially quote one of the foundational axioms of symbolic logic? I can imagine it being an error, but not a logical one.

Eh, first of all, "logical error" is used in common speech as well.

But if you want... if you use improper logic based on assumed, but not stated axioms, which applicability could be disputed, you will get incorrect answer.

Assuming that A can be either "true" or "false", or in our case, "free" or "paid" depends on expectation of all people. Someone can see it as part of continued product support, something that is part of the price of game or previously released DLC (especially since Patches went into two modes, hotfixes and big patch that comes along DLCs. Sometimes, you have to wait several DLCs for specific bug, introduced in previous DLC, to be corrected).

So A can be both "true" and "false" at the same time, depending on assumptions of other people. If person X consider A to be true, than A|X = TRUE. If Y consider it false, then A|Y = FALSE. Obviously, from this example, A can be both true or false. You will get global answer if you integrate through all people: A| \int_\Omega.

Obviously this goes beyond propositional logic. But, why assume that this problem could be solvable in propositional logic?

Sorry for replying w/o reading all the WoTs but just wanted to reiterate the arguments that actually count:

1) DLC prices are too damn high
2) vanilla bugs stay unfixed for years
3) they (un)intentionally introduce new bugs/nerf/remove existing mechanics with the so-called free patches to give you an incentive to buy DLC

That being said, I played EUIV, CKII and Stellaris for a couple hundred hours each and own quite a few DLCs.

My advice: pick and choose well, and wait for that discount.

Quoting: minjSorry for replying w/o reading all the WoTs but just wanted to reiterate the arguments that actually count:

1) DLC prices are too damn high

Depends, but I can agree on this one. That's why I wait for sales too. But some of them I bought them full price

Quoting: minj2) vanilla bugs stay unfixed for years

Can you please give examples ? I recently made two complete runs with EU4 and I only had one bug, in fact, the same in the two runs, and from the first run to the second run it was even a bit corrected as far as I could see. Plus it was not at all a game breaking bug. Just units that can't be rerouted under certain circumstances.

Quoting: Rutine

Quoting: minj2) vanilla bugs stay unfixed for years

Can you please give examples ? I recently made two complete runs with EU4 and I only had one bug, in fact, the same in the two runs, and from the first run to the second run it was even a bit corrected as far as I could see. Plus it was not at all a game breaking bug. Just units that can't be rerouted under certain circumstances.

I'm not minj but I can give some examples anyway:
-Broken crossplatform multiplayer
-Broken hotjoin
-Ironman save corruption when saving after losing internet connection
-Quitting to the menu doesn't properly reset the game (they "fixed" it by restarting the game each time you quit to the menu)
-Changing the start game before starting a new game causes problems (e.g. changing to a later start date and changing back gives France empire status)

And a lot more, including AI bugs and multiplayer issues (hard to say if those are new bugs or long standing ones since those are hard to replicate).

Quoting: Lakorta-Broken crossplatform multiplayer
-Broken hotjoin

Ok, those don't affect me, because I only do singleplayer.
By the way, they just posted this : [url=https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/eu4-development-diary-31st-of-october-2017.1052692/]

What they say in the end, if you don't want to read all the post :

"tl;dr: A lot of work on multiplayer has been done, and it will continue. Cross Platform, Cross DLC, and Hotjoin should now be working. Reporting your desyncs might get them fixed faster. If you guys have any questions or suggestions I’d be glad to discuss in this thread."

Quoting: Lakorta-Ironman save corruption when saving after losing internet connection

I'm glad I didn't lose my internet connection as I only play in Ironman for the moment

Quoting: Lakorta-Quitting to the menu doesn't properly reset the game (they "fixed" it by restarting the game each time you quit to the menu)

Agreed, the fix is not really nice, but it's fixed.

Quoting: Lakorta-Changing the start game before starting a new game causes problems (e.g. changing to a later start date and changing back gives France empire status)

Yeah I had this once too, but I don't play too much with dates, I most usually play the full campaign. Should try later starts one day

I agree that they should be fixed of course but all in all they don't seem so gamebreaking or things that happen so often.