Keith Packard's video from 'LinuxConfAu 2018' talking about Virtual Reality and Linux is up

Quoting: TheSHEEEP"Passionate argument about something they hate

You don't like VR, we get it. This isn't something you can actually argue about though, you know? You have your opinion, other people have theirs.

Guess what? We're both right, even though I still think you're wrong (and oh so clearly, vice versa). Cool, eh?

When VR comes, I'll be the happiest little 40-something on the planet. You'll continue to ignore it. Win win. It's a bit like running Linux in that regard - when's the year of the Linux desktop? For me, it was every year since 2013.

Regardless of where you stand on the subject though, there's no need to get personal. Calling people sheep, or narrow-minded/short-sighted for not agreeing with your opinion only undermines your own position.

@beniwtv - Edge of Nowhere looks incredible (with or without VR). Would love to see something like come to Linux.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPFunny, first you make the suggestion, then you say it's not enough.
Grasping for arguments, are we?

That wasn't me, I didn't suggest anything?

Quoting: TheSHEEEPI don't need to do or play more than that to see what is going on. As a gamer for over 20 years and a 3D programmer for more than 10, I know more than enough to recognize this whole thing for what it is:
Lots of hype with not-nothing but fairly little substance behind it.

And that is exactly what I thought too! I didn't get the hype about VR at first - until I had a proper go at it. And I have been a gamer for over 20 years and programmed games too.

It's not perfect yet - I'd still want a few things improved, like wireless by default, better peripheral vision and better screens. From what I saw, that is what the new Vive Pro they just announced is gonna deliver (and while being lighter, too). But my current Vive still is a cool experience - not only confirmed by me, but by people that had a go on it.

Quoting: scaine@beniwtv - Edge of Nowhere looks incredible (with or without VR). Would love to see something like come to Linux.

Indeed! I hope more developers realize SteamVR works on Linux and enable the VR option in their builds. Or even just enable it - in case of Everspace, developers left it enabled in the Linux build and I was the first to try it and report it work, which also amazed the devs...

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThere's a small increase in immersion due to the hardware, but due to the player just looking at the field, that is very, very limited.

I don't know why it didn't work for you. But you must have noticed that it's hugely different for many people. In fact I cannot remember a single one, in real life, online or journalist not having experienced a huge increase in immersion. For me personally, it was like having stepped into the monitor after more than three decades of sitting in front of it. That's what VR is all about.


Last edited by Eike on 30 January 2018 at 7:31 am UTC

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: TheSHEEEP"Passionate argument about something they hate

You don't like VR, we get it. This isn't something you can actually argue about though, you know? You have your opinion, other people have theirs.

Ahh, the good old "I'm all out of arguments, so let's make all these facts opinions so I don't have to discuss them any more".

The only opinion part about what I'm saying is the part where VR will never be the widespread, replacement-of-current-peripherals thing some make it out to be. That's obviously in the future, and while I base my predictions on logic, I haven't quite reached prophetic levels yet ;)

But all the rest is not opinions, it is facts.

Wireless can be done, but that introduces a need to keep your headset charged. Which introduces the need for a battery of some kind. Which increases the weight. Even if the devices do get lighter as a whole, there are limits to how light they can be, Moore's Law has been disproved years ago. There will always be that.

Games not specifically made for VR, but just supporting it cross-peripherals (VR is not a platform, it is a peripheral) can never be a significant improvement gameplay-wise, yet require effort by the developer to support VR. There will always be games not supporting VR because it wouldn't make sense to support it.

The other way around: Games made specifically for VR could always be made working for monitors as well. There is no movement my head can make that cannot be imitated with mouse & keyboard.

Space: The "full body" VR experiences (which offer significantly more than just sitting with the headset) require a ton of space. Most people simply don't have that space or are not willing to spare the space. For some proper movement that doesn't feel restricted, you'd need at least 2x2 - 3x3 meters. That's the size of a trampoline. Compare it to the space PC & monitor needs.

Price: The better the tech gets, the more expensive the devices will be. They do get cheaper with time, but just as every proper hardware, they will remain on a not-cheap level. And that will always be in addition to the PC/console - which already cost quite some dough as well.

No multi-tasking. When I play a game, I like to have something else running on my other monitor. Maybe a guide, maybe something entirely different. I can always have both in my view at the same time. And I can interact without problems with the world around me, too. Like looking at someone when talking to them. Or grabbing a drink. Good luck with any of that while you have the VR headset on...

I'll stop here, but there's more. And all of that combined should already make it clear to any neutral observer that, no, VR will most likely not be the widespread current-tech-replacement some make it out to be. It is simply not practical enough. It will remain something for people with the space and money to make use of it.

And no, I don't hate VR. That's something you came up with to not having to bother disproving any of my points. I'm neutral about VR. I might even buy a device, would like to try it out once Star Citizen comes out. Or rather, IF it does...

What I do hate is human stupidity and mostly baseless hype.

Quoting: scaineRegardless of where you stand on the subject though, there's no need to get personal. Calling people sheep, or narrow-minded/short-sighted for not agreeing with your opinion only undermines your own position.

Wrong. Calling people for what they are behaving like is simply the truth and I will continue to do so.
If you think me short-sighted, call me out on it, I'll gladly disprove that.
Let's not get to the kindergarden level of "let's all say nice things only", please. That doesn't lead anywhere useful.
I rather have people speak their mind than trying to be nice for the mere sake of being nice.


Last edited by TheSHEEEP on 30 January 2018 at 7:37 am UTC

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWrong. Calling people for what they are behaving like is simply the truth and I will continue to do so.

You can expect everybody here to be a human. So calling somebody a sheep is not the truth.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPLet's not get to the kindergarden level of "let's all say nice things only", please. That doesn't lead anywhere useful.

Insulting people is the opposite of kindergarten? Well then...

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThere's a small increase in immersion due to the hardware, but due to the player just looking at the field, that is very, very limited.

I don't know why it didn't work for you. But you must have noticed that it's hugely different for many people. In fact I cannot remember a single one, in real life, online or journalist not having experienced a huge increase in immersion. For me personally, it was like having stepped into the monitor after more than three decades of sitting in front of it. That's what VR is all about.

That point was made for non-FP games.
For first person games, I agree with you, it does increase the immersion.
Personally, it is not an immersion that I really need - for me that comes from gameplay mechanics, storytelling, etc. I guess this might be simpler for other people?
How I look at the world - that is just a window. If I move the mouse or hold that controller toward an item - it is just an input command. And the mouse is way more reliable - just looking at some Twitch streamers trying to grab stuff with the Vive controller. Seems to be a challenge on its own - though I would expect improvements with tech advancements here.


Last edited by TheSHEEEP on 30 January 2018 at 7:48 am UTC

Quoting: TheSHEEEPThat point was made for non-FP games.
For first person games, I agree with you.

Ah, ok. I agree that VR doesn't make a huge difference for say Europa Universalis. I would stay with the monitor for this. While I can imagine VR may replace monitors fully some day (did you read Ready Player One?), it shouldn't be the next years.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPPersonally, it is not an immersion that I really need - for me that comes from gameplay mechanics, storytelling, etc. I guess this might be simpler for other people?

How about having both, a good game and unprecedented immersion?

Quoting: TheSHEEEPHow I look at the world - that is just a window. If I move the mouse or hold that controller toward an item - it is just an input command.

You are thinking way to technical about it. My first VR experience, and I'm using this word not as the usual buzzword meaning, but in it's real meaning, was a rollercoaster ride. I got sick! Just how I get on a real rollercoaster! That's not about the input (it didn't have any) or the graphics (minecrafty)! Of course, this wasn't anything to entertain you for a long time, but it showed a physical immersion you cannot have in front of a monitor! You need to add good games to this immersion, but come on, we're just at the beginning. People are starting to learn how you can make a good game in VR.


Last edited by Eike on 30 January 2018 at 8:04 am UTC

Quoting: devnullI have a drone, would love to tie the controller into VR with the HMD and fly one.

I don't know much about drones, but I know the competitive folks use some sort of HMD when racing. They are just little things like sunglasses, but they are quite skilled at flying them. I imagine it's not much of a stretch to put 360 cams on bigger drones and get a full view thru something like the Vive.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWireless can be done, but that introduces a need to keep your headset charged. Which introduces the need for a battery of some kind. Which increases the weight. Even if the devices do get lighter as a whole, there are limits to how light they can be, Moore's Law has been disproved years ago. There will always be that.

That's not a fact. Did you try the new wireless Vive Pro yet to know how heavy it really is? What about all these new battery technologies that make them very light that are being developed as we speak? What about other future developments? Remember - computers used to be the size of a house!

Quoting: TheSHEEEPGames not specifically made for VR, but just supporting it cross-peripherals (VR is not a platform, it is a peripheral) can never be a significant improvement gameplay-wise, yet require effort by the developer to support VR.

Again, that is not a fact - but your opinion. Plenty of people that played VR vs non-VR disagree with you here, and find the experience way better, including gameplay-wise. There's some cool things you can to with the VR controllers - specially the Occulus Rift ones - that aren't possible (or more cumbersome) with your keyboard and mouse. Like moving fingers, picking things up, moving / rotating them around, etc...

Quoting: TheSHEEEPSpace: The "full body" VR experiences (which offer significantly more than just sitting with the headset) require a ton of space. Most people simply don't have that space or are not willing to spare the space. For some proper movement that doesn't feel restricted, you'd need at least 2x2 - 3x3 meters. That's the size of a trampoline. Compare it to the space PC & monitor needs.

Yes, you need a bit of space to take full advantage of VR, which is a fact well pointed out. I barely have space, but I'll make sure to have space when moving into a new house. But here you're assuming again that people don't have space and don't want to make space, which honestly, again is your opinion.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPPrice: The better the tech gets, the more expensive the devices will be. They do get cheaper with time, but just as every proper hardware, they will remain on a not-cheap level. And that will always be in addition to the PC/console - which already cost quite some dough as well.

Let's not forget that proper gaming peripherals have never been cheap, I spent $150 alone on my keyboard. When VR headsets are produced in even more numbers, price shouldn't be that of an issue. But this is a valid point.

Quoting: TheSHEEEPNo multi-tasking. When I play a game, I like to have something else running on my other monitor. Maybe a guide, maybe something entirely different. I can always have both in my view at the same time. And I can interact without problems with the world around me, too. Like looking at someone when talking to them. Or grabbing a drink. Good luck with any of that while you have the VR headset on...

Again, your opinion. You assume everyone wants to have other things running while playing VR, or hates not being able to interact with the world around them while playing. And honestly, grabbing a drink you can still do when taking a break while playing...

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWhat I do hate is human stupidity and mostly baseless hype.

If people like it, what problem is there that they hype it? If people like something, shouldn't they be excited and spread the word?

Quoting: TheSHEEEPWrong. Calling people for what they are behaving like is simply the truth and I will continue to do so. If you think me short-sighted, call me out on it, I'll gladly disprove that.
Let's not get to the kindergarden level of "let's all say nice things only", please. That doesn't lead anywhere useful. I rather have people speak their mind than trying to be nice for the mere sake of being nice.

Whoa! If you don't want to have a civilized discussion, but instead insult people, then let's just stop right here. Because THAT really doesn't lead to anything useful.

Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: TheSHEEEP"Passionate argument about something they hate

You don't like VR, we get it. This isn't something you can actually argue about though, you know? You have your opinion, other people have theirs.

Ahh, the good old "I'm all out of arguments, so let's make all these facts opinions so I don't have to discuss them any more".

Weird - you still think this is an argument. Like you're "right" and we're all "wrong". If I don't like olives, do you really think you can argue my position on them? That you can argue their case and I'll be like "Woah, you're right! I need to eat more of these delicious olives! I've been wasting my life not eating them!".

Move on. I'm excited by the notion that I can play VR on Linux. Really excited, because I've tried it on Windows and it was (for me) an incredible, game-changing (literally) experience. You're not. That's all there is to it. Your "facts" don't matter to me, clearly, since I've tried it and still love it, right? (Sorry - didn't read any of the rest of your post/facts, since... well, why bother?)