MXGP3 - Motocross is showing new signs of Linux support

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: ScooptaVP doesn't port...they just wrap. I won't be buying this.

This type of stance is really silly. Do you buy Feral games? They're not exactly that different, they have their own special layer as well. As do likely many ports.

VP's ports like other ports are supported, mostly work well, they run like other games and so on.

Facts are, Linux is not currently profitable enough for anyone to consider entirely rewriting a rendering engine to support OpenGL/Vulkan.

Agreed , that's why our chances of Vulkan supported games relies on Windows 7 rather than Linux.

Quoting: liamdaweDo you buy Feral games? They're not exactly that different, they have their own special layer as well. As do likely many ports.

As said many times, they are. They don't run Windows binaries, they are fully compiled for Linux. And wrapping source with source is actually a design pattern tought to software engineers.

Quoting: liamdaweFacts are, Linux is not currently profitable enough for anyone to consider entirely rewriting a rendering engine to support OpenGL/Vulkan.

Well... yes.


Last edited by Eike on 7 February 2018 at 12:38 pm UTC

Quoting: Guest...and it makes NO DIFFERENCE speed wise as to whether you execute x86 asm that MSVC compiled, or x86 asm that GCC/clang compiled. I have no idea why people cannot understand this.

Who was talking about speed?
I mean, except you?

There's penalties for calling into binaries often (many optimizations cannot be done), but that's not my point.
If I want to run Windows binaries on my X86 system, there's a very suitable system to do so:
Microsoft® Windows®

PS: I don't know why this is brought up every time. VP wrapping is different from what Feral does, the practical impact should be low if it's done well, and everbody decides on his/her own - hopefully based on facts, not on uninformed believes - if he/she wants to buy in this or not.


Last edited by Eike on 7 February 2018 at 1:30 pm UTC

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: EikeThere's penalties for calling into binaries often (many optimizations cannot be done), but that's not my point.

It doesnt apply here. A CALL instruction is a CALL instruction. Compiling the game code with the wrapper code brings exactly NO speed benefit - we've tried it.

If you're a programmer, you know there's more to it. E.g. functions cannot be inlined in this case (which should be likely for thin wrappers). If it makes a practical difference in your case, I don't know. BTW, If you've got a wrapped Windows binary and a native Linux binary and can do the real comparision, I'd prefer to have the latter one published. ;)

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: EikeIf I want to run Windows binaries on my X86 system, there's a very suitable system to do so:
Microsoft® Windows®

Got it, you have a problem with using "Windows Code" on Linux. It's an entirely idealogical issue for you.. ie you're in the "Native or nothin" crowd. Enjoy "nothin".

I'd ask you to stay pertinent. We both know there's no such thing as "Windows code" in the end - it's all x86 machine code. (Which is why I didn't write that and it doesn't belong into quotation marks.) But there is such a thing as Windows binaries, and that's what I was talking about.
I don't care if you call it "idealogical". Windows is the best system to run Windows binaries. Would you disagree on that?
BTW, thanks for your "nice" wishes to enjoy nothing. I enjoy a lot of native Linux games, way more than I'd ever find time to play. My stack of shame is over a hundred hours large, and the whishlist probably over a thousand. Quite different from "nothing", that is.
Your work (I guess you are working for VP) is appreciated by many Linux gamers. I choose not to be your customer for the moment, though. It shouldn't hurt your feelings.


Last edited by Eike on 7 February 2018 at 2:06 pm UTC

Let me first say: This is the kind of answer where the reader feels respected.

Quoting: GuestMy frustration is that I and others have said all this before, many times, yet people choose to ignore it and insist that just because we are running Win32 targeted x86 code out of a PE binary, we must somehow be inferior in performance.

Sorry, but in this thread, you were the first one to talk about speed. Just looking at this thread, the frustration looks somewhat self-inflicted. (Of course, you picked it up somewhere else.)

I understand that it's frustrating losing customers on not-too-technical reasons. But you need to keep your target audience in mind. In the Linux case, it's people with strong feelings about some non-technical things. Some will not buy stuff with DRM, some will even not start anything they don't have the source code for. Others don't want Windows binaries. It's nothing you can do much against, so you shouldn't bother too much.

Of course, if you find untrue statements about your work, you want to go against it. Maybe putting up sort of an FAQ could help, to point to when needed.

Quoting: GuestAnd no.. the Linux market is not big enough to justify full renderer re-writes.

I totally understand that. I don't think I've got unrealistic expectations when it comes to Linux market, and luckily, as I never had too big expectations, so I'm not disappointed. I'm happy I can fulfill all my gaming needs on Linux nowadays with ease.

BTW, I'm not "ideological" enough not to consider buying Elder Scrolls 6, Fallout 4 or Witcher 3 from VP. Just sayin'.


Last edited by Eike on 7 February 2018 at 3:13 pm UTC

Quoting: GuestWe tried the FAQ thing when we had the Github issue tracker, people just ignored it and continued to parrot the same old shit that has been bandied about since Witcher 2.

Still a good idea though.
It would useful to have a "Debunking myths about wrapped games, FAQ, whatever" article in a place with good exposure (maybe even here on GOL wiki, Liam?) where such myths that keep popping up can be explained/clarified one by one.

I've seen over time some interesting discussions and insights/details about this from VP and even Feral, but they are now long forgotten, buried in some old GOL or reddit topic.

Some folks will keep complaining most likely, but at least you'd have a place to address their concerns (please read this and that), instead of keep replying the same thing over and over again.

I real don't care if the game is native to Linux or wrapped using tech A,B,C.
I just want to play.
Considering wrappers are lower in cost vs developing and supporting a game i see most companies going the wrapper way.
One thing i would like to know about wrappers , eOn in this case, can they adapt to the game in particular in real time? Looking into emulators and VMs they tend to have self-tunables switches.

Ahh.., Finally a game that I can release my rage on virtual two wheels after riding home from work, through traffic jams with many "lesen kopi" cagers who doesn't know how to use turn signals (or doesn't know that turn signals exists) and calling all motorcycle commuters (who doing their part easing rush hour congestion) as "rempit".

Definitely I buy it.

Quoting: ScooptaVP doesn't port...they just wrap. I won't be buying this.

As long as I get STABLE 30-60 FPS it's fine for me.
I never understood these FPS-Hunter gamers out there always comparing their dicks.

Quoting: ScooptaVP doesn't port...they just wrap. I won't be buying this.

So? VP support Linux gaming, and bring us games we might otherwise not get.

Get over it.


Last edited by Luke_Nukem on 7 February 2018 at 7:23 pm UTC