Windows 10 S might alarm Valve into boosting SteamOS again

That's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor.

Don't get me wrong, I agree a lot with what you're saying. However, this is the same Microsoft that tried to force the tiled interface on everyone and that came with a whole host of issues.

unfortunately i've noticed in my life that manipulate society is easier than it should be, i'm pessimist and i think this will be accept and most people wont even notice, those who notice will complain but do nothing to change, those who want to change already did, actually i opened this new in a hope that valve had confirmed your hipotesis, that's not the case.

However, this is the same Microsoft that tried to force the tiled interface on everyone and that came with a whole host of issues.

And they seem to have survived the backlash against those stupid decisions just fine. Sure, they made some concessions, but it's also important to keep in mind that 2-3 years ago, many well-informed, no-nonsense, serious people were putting forward very well formulated reasons as to why M$ had sentenced itself to eventual irrelevance by the unusable ui (even on servers), pissing off/almost-backstabbing OEM partners, and so on. So this is a scary thought: They are capable of making the dumbest decisions ... and then get away with it. If, in the wake of yet another idiotic M$ adventure, it's Vulkan adoption, or GOG, or whatever else that comes off as the losing party, that will be awful enough.

However, this is the same Microsoft that tried to force the tiled interface on everyone and that came with a whole host of issues.

And they seem to have survived the backlash against those stupid decisions just fine. Sure, they made some concessions, but it's also important to keep in mind that 2-3 years ago, many well-informed, no-nonsense, serious people were putting forward very well formulated reasons as to why M$ had sentenced itself to eventual irrelevance by the unusable ui (even on servers), pissing off/almost-backstabbing OEM partners, and so on. So this is a scary thought: They are capable of making the dumbest decisions ... and then get away with it. If, in the wake of yet another idiotic M$ adventure, it's Vulkan adoption, or GOG, or whatever else that comes off as the losing party, that will be awful enough.

And that really should scare people. Hence reason #99999 why I use Linux as a primary driver of everything :)

That's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor. Unless they're hardcore Microsoft fans people would not pay for closed ecosystems. For instances, instead of paying 500 + 49$ (I don't know about the prices in US, sorry) for a fully functional lower-medium range notebook from the Vendor X, they would just buy a similar notebook from Vendor Y with FreeDOS or Windows 10 Pro for 500 total. Since majority of the third party vendors are aware that people are looking for functionality than "convenience of Microsoft Store" they will sell regular windows or not sell at all with their rigs.

The problem we're having here is that the above scenario is already a reality. Windows 10 S is not a popular choice and it will not be a popular choice in the future. That's simple as that. The only issue with this whole thing is that Microsoft is trying to rip people off by possibly making S-Mode enabled versions to be the default for "Windows as a service" in cheap rigs of notebooks, all-in-ones and especially netbooks/tablets. These devices either are not meant for gaming or are not powerful enough to game; either way they're not cost effective under many circumstances when considering the fact that there's the purpose of gaming and such devices are meant to be cheap, accessible and multi-purpose. -- Your average gamer will not buy a "PC" that doesn't support older/current titles, software and/or platforms

For the question you asked, yes such act would drive people away from Microsoft to different ecosystems or to piracy. It's quite foreseeable. Those people at Microsoft have to be a special kind of dumb to expect locking people down only to Microsoft Store, because that would be quitting the game.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.

People do buy closed ecosystems, iOS and Android are proof of that. Even in the case you describe with a Windows laptop for $549 and exactly the same laptop with Linux for $500, people will buy the $549 laptop because they will see the Windows and Office badges and buy it because that's what they are familiar with. Most standard non-technical users would rather pay the $49 than learn a new OS (that they have no interest in) and buy and swap all their familiar programs to Linux versions. In that regard Microsoft has lock in.

All they need to do (and are in the process of doing) is:

- Upgrade as much of the userbase as possible to Windows 10
- Force updates upon users and get them used to it
- Add S mode as the default, include a free switch to the "legacy" version, put in big warning signs to scare users not to switch - if they include an emulator in S mode most users won't even notice
- Wait as long as it takes for a critical mass of UWP apps. MS has deep pockets they can move at snails pace if needed
- Charge for the "legacy" version, keep S version as free
- Job done, UWP is now the standard.
- End the free period for the S version.

They can invite Valve to create a UWP app, even go as far as saying they won't double-dip developers into having to make both a Store and a Steam payment. They then charge developers less and undercut Valve (they do this to competitors all the time). Eventually raise prices.

Microsoft have been trying to shift their users to UWP since before 2010, there are no indications they are about to stop. In fact the opposite.

I believe you can make games use your system libraries and steam as well, but I can't remember how right now, but I know you can :D. But be aware some games will break.

It's probably as simple as linking to your system libraries but giving the links the same names as the stock libraries.

If y'all following the Microsoft news since Vista / Games for Windows for more than 10 years ago (I do), this S-mode locking down thing will be happen eventually. No need to comment much.

I am giving full attention on Sea of Thieves success (or failure) in many sides (sales, popularity etc). IMO, that's where MS direction going on next.

EDIT: Little bit to add

History shows that Sony will becoming "pro-consumer" if their cash cow is/was threaten. I'll never surprise if PS4 Remote Play will be on Linux (or FreeBSD) in the future.


Last edited by tonR on 5 Feb 2018 at 8:48 pm UTC

Linux is exist because of windows and it's philosphia. So Linux will be still exist no doubt about it. what about gaming?
No one wants to be chained to other company which can easly allow or disallow companies. And yea what about monthly subscription for developers :D.
Anyway windows trusting its userbase. But cooperatives becomes a good hand with linux gaming if linux friendly corps stands in same frontier. There is no problem acting for same goal. İf you dont like that cake make your own cake. (yea this is a bit divertive but diversion from windows is a good thing.)
Valve and alike corps should focus on how they could make Linux a better gaming platform. How the ecosystem could be created or redesigned around Linux. Just for example Steam+Source engine+Ubuntu+OpenGL SDL these made linux viable for most ms hatred peoples.
Now we have Vulkan better nvidia amd drivers better valve steam support. And at least some Linux distros.
actually many gaming industry workers corps can gettogether and create their "common gaming linux desktop os."
porters native developpers exlusive products. Need masses ? Start porting high userbase games. Pubg LoL we already have cs:go dota 2, TF2, bla bla. Bring the others. when we have masses start exlusives or so. and dont forget about driver developers. Dont forget the common linux os for gaming. actually that is a survival for all software and IT indistury. Windows is Nazi State of IT sector.
Else linux will be so far from the well deserved point. We cant stop people using windows until we offer them something better with positives. and without negatives especially about games. At least we need some top played games.
Also we gain no popularity for linux while telling negatives of windows without offerin something better to peoples.
for gaming we dont have a good offers. cs:go and dota 2 cant save the future.


Last edited by Kuduzkehpan on 5 Feb 2018 at 8:49 pm UTC

Its clear to me that many people are clearly in denial.

Microsoft WILL lock down windows with UWP and if users don't wake up there will be serious damage done to the entire PC and Gaming industry.

Microsoft will offer the non "S" variant until such a time that there is a sufficient user base. This will in turn force developers to develop for UWP. Once this occurs then Microsoft will pull the plug and force everyone onto UWP. They did this with Windows 10 forced upgrade and this is the very reason that I use Linux today. (A user for 2 years now)

Once this has occurred then forget about modding etc as all games will be sandboxed and under full control of Microsoft.

The only way to mitigate this is for the big publishers and Software houses to start porting to Linux and for users to start switching on mass.

The ball is now in our court.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.

What I didn't get was that they apparently plan to charge money for switching modes, not just for switching one of the old Windows S versions to a regular one...

Now I do understand why you call it stupid!
Just to be sure, for me it now seems they plan to sell 5 versions of Windows 10 to OEMs, based on the hardware of the device. OEMs get better prices if they preconfigure S mode. If they do, end users will eventually have to pay for mode switching.

Is that correct so far?

Which is why I don't understand why the rumors that MS is looking to buy Valve were dismissed so quickly by us.

Because the rumor was "Microsoft wants to buy Valve", not "Valve is considering selling to Microsoft." Big difference. :) I will bet you dollars to donuts that Microsoft has wanted to buy Valve since, ohh, soon after Steam came out. (If not before.) It's not like this is anything new, and I don't understand why people seem so surprised about it. Of course Microsoft wants to buy the infinite-money-printing machine, they'd be fools not to, the question is whether or not they can.

Gabe Newell already owns a never-ending stream of money, probably a majority share of Valve, and dislikes Microsoft. I'm not saying it could never happen, just that it's so far outside the ream of probability that I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it.

Also: [https://hothardware.com/news/gabe-newell-responds-to-outrageous-rumors-that-microsoft-is-buying-valve](https://hothardware.com/news/gabe-newell-responds-to-outrageous-rumors-that-microsoft-is-buying-valve)

went by 8 pages of replies and seen to much anger
I truly believe that Microsoft is about to close is system, and we all can see it, only the blind don't see it, the timing when it will happen only they know.
I love what valve has been doing for Linux and feel the community is getting strong the last two years.
But what stops others like blizzard, UBI(not saying EA because they are being bought by Microsoft) and many more to build there own SO!!!
For the casual Steam-OS it's a closed system and somewhat it's not different from W10 working module.
One way or another I feel the future is good and strong for Linux in general.

Next up: Monthly subscription for Windows 10!

It's only 9.99/mo what's the big deal -- it's not like it's 100 bucks a year or anything

/sarcasm

why does stupidity of windows users has to f*ck everyone else??

Stupidity has caused more harm to fellow humans than malicious intent. Let that one sink in.

As a world wide collective we are simply not very intelligent. The smart have suffered the stupid for millennia. And it's not humans did themselves a favor when large religions keep executing the intelligent who find fault -- the religions have eradicated anyone with descending articulate thinking because people who can think for themselves are more difficult to control.


Last edited by ElectricPrism on 5 Feb 2018 at 11:20 pm UTC

Apple did that. They were first. Microsoft will fail until they really release some shiny OS that iOS was at that times. Or they put looots of money into it.

All our hail and blessing lies in proprietary software.
In the "other" software its up to you.


Last edited by logge on 6 Feb 2018 at 12:09 am UTC

It's just a matter of time. Microsoft will GRADUALLY push Windows 10S wherever they can and when developpers will jump on board, users will get numbed enough to the UWP when they realize that they can do everything they want with the Windows 10S edition. We might even see users requiring Steam to be integrated to the UWP. At this point, it will become the defacto standard for all sold devices (desktop included). Once this is done, there will be no more upgrade paths. The argument will be something like: "Nobody uses the home edition of Windows anymore so we drop support."

Not saying it is going to happen, but I'm quite sure Microsft's strategy is not far from that. This plan started the day Microsoft released Windows 10S.

to clarify I'm in favour of Windows having it's store. But Steam games should be able to install games by itself without them being UWP, Android does that, an app may install another app. Not allowing trusted apps to install things might be an overkill.
Linux doesn't have an official store because it's a free/libre system, IOS, Mac OS, Android, have them. This isn't any surprise at all.

Understood, my point is just that the next version of Windows - now called Windows Core OS (not related to the Core OS that Red Hat just bought) - will be a massive upgrade similar to the upgrade to Windows NT 20 years ago. This will be a bigger threat than Windows 10 S - and Liam's article as a result is already dated. The threat however, is even bigger than the hyperbole in his article.

Valve GOG etc will just haft to pay Microsoft to get access to their user-base in the future. IT WILL HAPPEN, just a matter of when. Not like they can do anything about it, sure they could argue anti competitive behaviour but I don't think that would truly fly in court these days given what we have seen happen in other industries. Basically they can push their own platform however they like, just like how MacOS does, and Netflix etc etc......

Alternatives exist like SteamOS and Linux, unfortunately its hard to move people off Windows. For example I'm using it atm because I have Fallout 4 / SkyrimSE / Witcher 3 on windows, can't run them on Linux (wine) at 4K@60fps...


Last edited by TheRiddick on 6 Feb 2018 at 12:46 am UTC

You don't just go to sleep when the enemy regroups, you use that time to prepare. I hope Valve doesn't wake up with the short end of the stick...

That's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor. Unless they're hardcore Microsoft fans people would not pay for closed ecosystems. For instances, instead of paying 500 + 49$ (I don't know about the prices in US, sorry) for a fully functional lower-medium range notebook from the Vendor X, they would just buy a similar notebook from Vendor Y with FreeDOS or Windows 10 Pro for 500 total. Since majority of the third party vendors are aware that people are looking for functionality than "convenience of Microsoft Store" they will sell regular windows or not sell at all with their rigs.

The problem we're having here is that the above scenario is already a reality. Windows 10 S is not a popular choice and it will not be a popular choice in the future. That's simple as that. The only issue with this whole thing is that Microsoft is trying to rip people off by possibly making S-Mode enabled versions to be the default for "Windows as a service" in cheap rigs of notebooks, all-in-ones and especially netbooks/tablets. These devices either are not meant for gaming or are not powerful enough to game; either way they're not cost effective under many circumstances when considering the fact that there's the purpose of gaming and such devices are meant to be cheap, accessible and multi-purpose. -- Your average gamer will not buy a "PC" that doesn't support older/current titles, software and/or platforms

For the question you asked, yes such act would drive people away from Microsoft to different ecosystems or to piracy. It's quite foreseeable. Those people at Microsoft have to be a special kind of dumb to expect locking people down only to Microsoft Store, because that would be quitting the game.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.

People do buy closed ecosystems, iOS and Android are proof of that. Even in the case you describe with a Windows laptop for $549 and exactly the same laptop with Linux for $500, people will buy the $549 laptop because they will see the Windows and Office badges and buy it because that's what they are familiar with. Most standard non-technical users would rather pay the $49 than learn a new OS (that they have no interest in) and buy and swap all their familiar programs to Linux versions. In that regard Microsoft has lock in.

All they need to do (and are in the process of doing) is:

- Upgrade as much of the userbase as possible to Windows 10
- Force updates upon users and get them used to it
- Add S mode as the default, include a free switch to the "legacy" version, put in big warning signs to scare users not to switch - if they include an emulator in S mode most users won't even notice
- Wait as long as it takes for a critical mass of UWP apps. MS has deep pockets they can move at snails pace if needed
- Charge for the "legacy" version, keep S version as free
- Job done, UWP is now the standard.
- End the free period for the S version.

They can invite Valve to create a UWP app, even go as far as saying they won't double-dip developers into having to make both a Store and a Steam payment. They then charge developers less and undercut Valve (they do this to competitors all the time). Eventually raise prices.

Microsoft have been trying to shift their users to UWP since before 2010, there are no indications they are about to stop. In fact the opposite.

I dont know about that mate. I mean, if people see a PC with Elementary OS or Deepin i'm pretty sure they will be interested.

I believe that if people saw a nice laptop with a nice linux distro store, they would be interested. Specially if you say stuff like dont get viruses so easily and etc.

Chrome OS has pretty good slling numbers even not doing a lot of things other OSes do. Maybe Linux has a big potencial but doesnt have a marketing campaign good enough to achieve that potencial

I'd love if Valve updated the bundled libraries for the Steam client to Ububtu 18.04 in April.

Kinda pathetic it still ships with 12.04 libraries from 2012...

Those libraries caused me nothing but woe. Use snaps and Flatpaks, and let us choose whether or not we even want an outdated and barely functioning runtime at all.

That's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor. Unless they're hardcore Microsoft fans people would not pay for closed ecosystems. For instances, instead of paying 500 + 49$ (I don't know about the prices in US, sorry) for a fully functional lower-medium range notebook from the Vendor X, they would just buy a similar notebook from Vendor Y with FreeDOS or Windows 10 Pro for 500 total. Since majority of the third party vendors are aware that people are looking for functionality than "convenience of Microsoft Store" they will sell regular windows or not sell at all with their rigs.

The problem we're having here is that the above scenario is already a reality. Windows 10 S is not a popular choice and it will not be a popular choice in the future. That's simple as that. The only issue with this whole thing is that Microsoft is trying to rip people off by possibly making S-Mode enabled versions to be the default for "Windows as a service" in cheap rigs of notebooks, all-in-ones and especially netbooks/tablets. These devices either are not meant for gaming or are not powerful enough to game; either way they're not cost effective under many circumstances when considering the fact that there's the purpose of gaming and such devices are meant to be cheap, accessible and multi-purpose. -- Your average gamer will not buy a "PC" that doesn't support older/current titles, software and/or platforms

For the question you asked, yes such act would drive people away from Microsoft to different ecosystems or to piracy. It's quite foreseeable. Those people at Microsoft have to be a special kind of dumb to expect locking people down only to Microsoft Store, because that would be quitting the game.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.

People do buy closed ecosystems, iOS and Android are proof of that. Even in the case you describe with a Windows laptop for $549 and exactly the same laptop with Linux for $500, people will buy the $549 laptop because they will see the Windows and Office badges and buy it because that's what they are familiar with. Most standard non-technical users would rather pay the $49 than learn a new OS (that they have no interest in) and buy and swap all their familiar programs to Linux versions. In that regard Microsoft has lock in.

All they need to do (and are in the process of doing) is:

- Upgrade as much of the userbase as possible to Windows 10
- Force updates upon users and get them used to it
- Add S mode as the default, include a free switch to the "legacy" version, put in big warning signs to scare users not to switch - if they include an emulator in S mode most users won't even notice
- Wait as long as it takes for a critical mass of UWP apps. MS has deep pockets they can move at snails pace if needed
- Charge for the "legacy" version, keep S version as free
- Job done, UWP is now the standard.
- End the free period for the S version.

They can invite Valve to create a UWP app, even go as far as saying they won't double-dip developers into having to make both a Store and a Steam payment. They then charge developers less and undercut Valve (they do this to competitors all the time). Eventually raise prices.

Microsoft have been trying to shift their users to UWP since before 2010, there are no indications they are about to stop. In fact the opposite.

I dont know about that mate. I mean, if people see a PC with Elementary OS or Deepin i'm pretty sure they will be interested.

I believe that if people saw a nice laptop with a nice linux distro store, they would be interested. Specially if you say stuff like dont get viruses so easily and etc.

Chrome OS has pretty good slling numbers even not doing a lot of things other OSes do. Maybe Linux has a big potencial but doesnt have a marketing campaign good enough to achieve that potencial

Two things, very effective at keeping Linux away. Cargo culture and decentralisation.

Intel Microsoft Nvidia and the like adore perpetuating myths about their competitors. Like we all know that AMD cards run hot, except they don't, or that their Linux drivers are horrible, except they provide an OpenSource Wayland compliant kernel module while Nvidia is still considering KMS.

Linux has come a long way. As a recent Mac user and a long time Windows user I must say that UI/UX wise they're doing a lot better than both. Drivers aren't an issue anymore and save from Linus Sebastian giving advice that will brick most systems, the systems are by far the most reliable.

Problem is, we don't have as many people doing the good work. We need more forums like this one, we need more youtube channels like Linux gamer, more companies like Dell, to give us prebuilt PCs with Linux as an option not a gimmick. People are lazy, and unless we expose them to Linux in a good way, nothing's gonna change.

On that note, We still need to iron a few things out: Wayland is not complete, we still need to do plenty of under-the-hood improvements, before the aggressive marketing will even have a chance. Right now, we'd only make the task even harder.