Windows 10 S might alarm Valve into boosting SteamOS again

Next up: Monthly subscription for Windows 10!

:O You mad man! Stop giving them ideas!

Actually, what do I care? I don't use Windows. But still, I'm almost sure it will eventually come to that.

This isn't at all surprising. This is the way most commercial operating systems are going. MacOS already has an "S mode" equivalent, and ChromeOS is like this as well (You have to enable developer mode to get more out of it). Having said that, the only place I've seen a Mac locked down that way is at work, and even then, if you're the administrator of your computer, you can still override it by going through a few warning dialogs.

It's certainly not ideal, but Windows was far from ideal anyway. My point is that this is clearly geared toward enterprise and schools (where Microsoft is losing ground to Chromebooks). They can't be stupid enough to alienate their gaming community, especially when gaming is at an all time high. Then again, I've been wrong about them before. :S:

there will be Windows 10's with S lock, upgradable to

shlock? haha sry...

S modes purpose is (at least in part) to shrink future market for third party stores like Steam and GOG. New users, who just purchased a machine with a preinstalled Windows S mode, won't change that default, because the system will tell them it's dangerous. Most of them will never even try Steam or GOG.

That intention itself is highly fantastic as you can't push a market to shrink by selling incompatible operating systems. Microsoft's intention and the purpose of S Mode is clearly rigging prices and forcing the consumer to pay an additional fee to both vendors and Microsoft so that they could have their favourite platforms and software installed on those machines. Which will eventually force consumer not to consume such devices and Microsoft will only be selling portable and/or specialist devices which is what Windows 10 S was intended for and is widely being used for as of today. Their Surface book whatever editions are competitors to Chromebooks (and Macbooks as they're too closed environments). Microsoft is making money from cloud-based services and hardware around those services.

There's no way in coming years that Microsoft can, in anyway, compete with Steam or GOG on PC. That's out of question. There's no such future unless Microsoft buys Valve. That's also a laughably distant possibility.

I disagree! When the propriator of the one OS that is pre-installed on almost every sold gaming ready PC, decides to pre configure this OS to a default that makes Steam incompatible, and when the user has to change that configuration against warnings that tell him this step might be dangerous, then a big percentage of mostly new users will not do that. And that will shrink the user-base potential for Steam, not actual numbers of course.
OR.. people decide to use an alternate OS instead, which I'd like very much of course.. Do you believe in it?

Here's the problem. Microsoft holds supermajority because everyone used to use Microsoft and because it comes with almost all prebuilt systems. If they shift away from win32, this is only going to leave them the latter advantage. If valve are clever, they will team up with CrossOver guys and make sure that the older win32 apps are compatible with SteamOS and can break the myth that Linux is hard to game on and develop for. This can potentially quadruple the Linux Market share, and combined with Steam Consoles, they might even match Windows at some point.

I'm always amazed how people keep themselves locked and enslaved, not only with OS choices, but with daily life matters... And it's a choice, based of lack of education and information certainly, but a choice anyway.

Right. It always makes me mad when I see people thinking that freedom is the freedom to choose of the things right before their eyes, and having to do nothing that leads to better choices in the future.
How many people say "I would change to Linux, but not all of my software runs with it". What do they expect? Someone ports every software product to Linux in case anyone might want it? They don't even realize they have to show some interest, so anyone can react on it...


Last edited by on 5 Feb 2018 at 4:34 pm UTC

UWP junk also prevents applications from using Vulkan even on Windows.

I disagree! When the propriator of the one OS that is pre-installed on almost every sold gaming ready PC, decides to pre configure this OS to a default that makes Steam incompatible, and when the user has to change that configuration against warnings that tell him this step might be dangerous, then a big percentage of mostly new users will not do that. And that will shrink the user-base potential for Steam, not actual numbers of course.
OR.. people decide to use an alternate OS instead, which I'd like very much of course.. Do you believe in it?

"pre-installed on almost every sold gaming ready PC"

That's the case, they can't do that. That's bad business. That's exactly why Windows 10 S is not the choice for gaming or production, because it's not intended to run all the games and it's not commercialised as one. Same goes for ChromeOS, Android etc. It's much like how people were asking "How the hell SteamOS will replace Windows" in the early days and got the most obvious answer: It's not intended to do that. S Mode itself is not a profitable way of selling gaming ready PCs, since consumer is not always the idiot, but it's a good way of ripping off people.

There's absolutely no possible future in which Microsoft won the gaming industry by such a move. It's just plain dumb. You can't just force an incompatible OS in a market that demands a compatible OS. That won't force people to buy things from their Stores, it will force consumer away from Microsoft and Windows. To Mac and Linux, mainly.

I'm not trying to justify their point here. Just telling people: SteamOS and Windows 10 S or Windows 10 S Mode or whatever stupid thing they could put forward has no relevance at all.

UWP junk also prevents applications from using Vulkan even on Windows.

Right, I didn't think of that. Thanks!

Here's the problem. Microsoft holds supermajority because everyone used to use Microsoft and because it comes with almost all prebuilt systems. If they shift away from win32, this is only going to leave them the latter advantage. If valve are clever, they will team up with CrossOver guys and make sure that the older win32 apps are compatible with SteamOS and can break the myth that Linux is hard to game on and develop for. This can potentially quadruple the Linux Market share, and combined with Steam Consoles, they might even match Windows at some point.

We all know, Valve is smart! They support the Linux gaming infrastructure well, but quite silently. They never tried to own Linux. The choice to use Linux for SteamOS alone tells us they don't intend to control the system, and strive for an open platfom instead. Let's see what's coming from them when they decide to step forward!

Well, locking down Windows to UWP programs might eat a lot into Valve's budget, but at least they can boost Steam OS with full force and stop the perpetual hidden polishing and porting to modern platforms on their secretly finished Half life 3 product like they did for the last 12 years or so. That will include Steam VR of course. I bet Gaben has that all prepped up for emergency release in one of his drawers.

I just hope no one will start calling Linux the Gaming OS once that happens!

:)

As the article notes, 10 S can be easily unlocked for free to 10 Home...

For now.

The worst part... if it happens... will be Microsoft buying Valve. It seems this is currently under consideration by MS, and IF it happens, that will be the biggest blow to gaming on Linux. Steam will get integrated into the Windows store (and, eventually abandoned on Linux). Steam OS will most definitely be shelved. There will no longer be ANY promotion of Linux as a gaming platform from Value-MS. Sure, there will be some Linux-positive outliers for a time, but, without any BIG name promoting the platform in ANY way... poof.

If that ever happens, I will abandon PC gaming for good and become a lowly console peasant.

If you told people that in order to continue running Windows they have to allow a Microsoft goon to bash their finger in with a hammer once a month, I suspect most people would still continue to run Windows. Except now they'd be typing slower with their bashed in finger.

While I agree completely with this degree of Stockholm syndrome being prevalent, I do think that if anything is going to dethrone Windows and shake people up it's Windows stopping being an open platform. Not everyone cares for sure, but I reckon a lot of people do, people who do any development, any serious gaming, just about anything past most casual usage. So I consider them pushing this lockdown not a potential disaster but a very very fortunate possibility. Nothing will show the naked emperor that is Windows for what it is like losing its vast library of "legacy" software and games. I really wish they do this.

I think, rather, that too many people have been conditioned by their cell phones and gaming consoles to accept the walled garden, and I suspect there will be a lot of "mom and pop" home users and even "hardcore" gamers who will breath a sigh of relief when this same "convenience" is finally introduced to their desktop computer. You're right, the power users and people who actually know how to use a command line will rebel, but we're a niche within a niche.

I'd love if Valve updated the bundled libraries for the Steam client to Ububtu 18.04 in April.

Kinda pathetic it still ships with 12.04 libraries from 2012...

I'd love if Valve updated the bundled libraries for the Steam client to Ububtu 18.04 in April.

Kinda pathetic it still ships with 12.04 libraries from 2012...

A lot of games are dependant on those libraries for various reasons and changing them can cause breakages.

If they were to re-base they would have to include the old ones for backwards compatibility with older games.

Though, I believe you can make games use your system libraries and steam as well, but I can't remember how right now, but I know you can :D. But be aware some games will break.

But I agree, they should include some newer libs but also provide backwards compatibility (I don't want broken games).

Why even bother about Steam? This is a platform depending just on a proprietary client and making nothing more out of GNU/Linux than a unixoid copy of Windows. With every demand for a client to manage installed games people demand also everything else, including being dependent on everything others give in. So what now? Drink your own medicine would be a first start and afterwards coming up to another conclusion. :D

And now we know why MS wants to buy Valve.

Let's face the reality - open systems are an aberration. The ONLY reason why we have an open PC platform today is because IBM totally underestimated the importance of software in general, and happily outsourced that part of their business to Microsoft, leaving their hardware platform open for them to install the software that nobody at IBM thought would ever be relevant for business.

Open systems have happened absolutely nowhere else in business history. Let that sink in for a moment! Every other system is tightly controlled by the manufacturer, because control is obviously more profitable than no control (*points at Apple for proof*). Nobody but IBM has ever made a dire mistake like this, and chances are close to 100% that it will never happen again.

So is that really so surprising that MS is trying to correct what from their perspective is a historic mistake?

If people think they aren't trying to lock down Windows for fun and profit, they need to stop smoking whatever they are smoking. I bet that this has been the hottest topic in MS board meetings for the past decade: "How can we push a closed platform to our users and hold our hand open every time somebody wants to install anything on it, like Apple does?"

Their first attempt - building a closed mobile platform to compete with Apple and Google - failed horribly. Now it must have occurred to them that they can also just lock down Windows and throw the key away. I wonder why it took them so long, really.

Now - here comes the problem (both for them and us): Locking down Windows won't do them much good all by itself. Windows is a different platform than iOS or Android, because a very large portion of installations are in enterprise environments, not consumer. Fat-cat corporations and governments will not accept having to purchase SAP and Photoshop in Windows Store. Good thing for MS is that they don't have do much except waiting for cloud services to become the norm and selling these instead. Which is what they do.
As for the consumer PC segment, it's shrinking on a daily basis. People buy mobile devices rather than PCs, and in that segment Microsoft's market share is almost non-existent. Gaming is one of the few remaining reasons for people to buy desktop machines these days, and MS cannot lock down Windows unless they control enough games retail market share allow them to make that move without upsetting users. But they don't. Valve does.

If Valve feels threatened by Microsoft, then rightfully so. Steam is the only thing that keeps them from locking down Windows and generate a lot of extra profit. Which is why I don't understand why the rumors that MS is looking to buy Valve were dismissed so quickly by us. The move makes absolutely perfect sense. It's -exactly- what MS needs to do to give Windows Store the critical mass it needs if they want Windows S to be the norm installation on consumer machines. If they can integrate Steam into Windows Store, they'd suddenly control a healthy portion of all Windows software online sales.
And yes, I know that Valve is privately owned, but hey, everybody's got a price. How many billions would they have to pile in front of Gabe until he gives in? They paid a billion for Minecraft. One game. They won't care about how many billions Gabe asks for. He will get them and an extra one or two for good measure. The guy's just human. Bioware's owners sold their company to EA, in full realization that EA would turn it into a soulless producer of uninspired games, just as they have ruined every other studio they ever bought. They sold anyway. Outrageous offers can do that.

And no, don't expect the government to pull the anti-trust card. Not with a government that habitually dismantles every regulation and consumer safeguard any large corporation disagrees with.

"pre-installed on almost every sold gaming ready PC"

That's the case, they can't do that. That's bad business. That's exactly why Windows 10 S is not the choice for gaming or production, because it's not intended to run all the games and it's not commercialised as one. Same goes for ChromeOS, Android etc. It's much like how people were asking "How the hell SteamOS will replace Windows" in the early days and got the most obvious answer: It's not intended to do that. S Mode itself is not a profitable way of selling gaming ready PCs, since consumer is not always the idiot, but it's a good way of ripping off people.

There's absolutely no possible future in which Microsoft won the gaming industry by such a move. It's just plain dumb. You can't just force an incompatible OS in a market that demands a compatible OS. That won't force people to buy things from their Stores, it will force consumer away from Microsoft and Windows. To Mac and Linux, mainly.

I'm not trying to justify their point here. Just telling people: SteamOS and Windows 10 S or Windows 10 S Mode
or whatever stupid thing they could put forward has no relevance at all.

That's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

That's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor. Unless they're hardcore Microsoft fans people would not pay for closed ecosystems. For instances, instead of paying 500 + 49$ (I don't know about the prices in US, sorry) for a fully functional lower-medium range notebook from the Vendor X, they would just buy a similar notebook from Vendor Y with FreeDOS or Windows 10 Pro for 500 total. Since majority of the third party vendors are aware that people are looking for functionality than "convenience of Microsoft Store" they will sell regular windows or not sell at all with their rigs.

The problem we're having here is that the above scenario is already a reality. Windows 10 S is not a popular choice and it will not be a popular choice in the future. That's simple as that. The only issue with this whole thing is that Microsoft is trying to rip people off by possibly making S-Mode enabled versions to be the default for "Windows as a service" in cheap rigs of notebooks, all-in-ones and especially netbooks/tablets. These devices either are not meant for gaming or are not powerful enough to game; either way they're not cost effective under many circumstances when considering the fact that there's the purpose of gaming and such devices are meant to be cheap, accessible and multi-purpose. -- Your average gamer will not buy a "PC" that doesn't support older/current titles, software and/or platforms

For the question you asked, yes such act would drive people away from Microsoft to different ecosystems or to piracy. It's quite foreseeable. Those people at Microsoft have to be a special kind of dumb to expect locking people down only to Microsoft Store, because that would be quitting the game.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.


Last edited by julespetrikov on 5 Feb 2018 at 7:05 pm UTC