DXVK, a Vulkan-based compatibility layer for Direct3D 11 for use with Wine

It's easy to say you don't have the resources, even if you had them...

Sure, if they are looking for excuses, they'll find some. And Wine isn't relevant here, since they are excusing "not offering support at all", not "not releasing native version". Analyze the difference.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 3:56 pm UTC

This is interesting
Did not know about the D3d9 one.
Methinks more games shall run soon :)

Definitely! The question is: What do we do about it? The more Windows titles work with Wine, the less people want to wait for a native version, the less will ask for one, the less demand for Linux games will be seen on Steam.
Wine gamers will get no support for their platform, but count as Windows users. I think we should always be aware of that.

The development and the release of native Linux ports of console games or Windows games has nothing to do with Linux market share or the amount of people in the world using a PC with a desktop Linux distro...
This is about the personal taste of each CEO of each gaming company and there is nothing We can do about it...

If a CEO decide to develop a super hyper ultra big AAA game whatever console exclusive, gamers will buy that console just for to play that AAA game... that is why the PS4 is a popular console: because of the exclusives..

If a CEO decide to develop a super hyper ultra big AAA game Windows exclusive, PC gamers will use Windows, not because they like it; they will use Windows (legally purchased like me or illegally downloaded like everyone else) just because that AAA PC game is a Windows exclusive... It is never the other way around...
And, sadly, all PC games are Windows exclusives.

If someday a CEO decide to develop a super hyper ultra big AAA game Linux exclusive (Halflife3, for example), PC gamers will install a Linux distro supported by the game, just for to play that AAA Linux exclusive PC game...

For now, if a Linux gamer want to play an AAA game on day 1 without using windows, wine is the way to go...

Wine gamers will get no support for their platform, but count as Windows users. I think we should always be aware of that.

I'm completely with you here. DXVK is an astonishing project and I'm happy for all the people that can play something like TW3 on Linux, I guess half a year and the experience will be similar to Windows. That said, I'm anxious that Feral, Aspire and VP will just move away from Linux when most current Linux gamers will prefer wine/dxvk. Dunno if having support is enough for the average Linux gamer to buy a game from them and ensuring income. Even if some DRM-free fanatics wont care, loosing Feral and friends would hurt Linux as gaming platform in the long term. It will keep less technical gamers (the big masses) out of Linux because wine/dxvk does require some technical skills. No market share, no investments.

(Claiming that market share is irrelevant is just conspiracy thinking. I'n my opinion it is all about market share. Sure, the pride of certain CEO's do play a role, but in the end it is about money, about ensuring return of and controlling investments.)


Last edited by jens on 26 Mar 2018 at 8:15 pm UTC

Market share doesn't matter currently. Despite its growth, legacy publishers still don't care, because they are legacy and backwards thinking. So market share alone won't help (unless we get to some huge double digits I suppose).

And about Feral and Co., it was discussed already. If they want to compete with Wine, they can open source their wrappers. Otherwise it's indeed questionable why their specific wrappers are any better, because they likely won't be in the near future.

However, as was also pointed out many times, the value is not just in the wrapper, but in the actual expertise. If Feral can help offering supported versions (no matter with what wrapper, it can be same Wine+dxvk), then they can have contracts from companies that do want to offer supported versions, but for some reason still can't do it themselves. It won't have any effect on those who don't want to. So again, Wine has no negative effect on any of this, it only has a positive effect on the ease of wrapping itself. And if such companies will switch to do their own wrapping because of its increasing ease - all the better. Feral and Co. will find something else to do. Like making their own engines or games :)


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 8:25 pm UTC

Market share doesn't matter currently. Despite its growth, legacy publishers still don't care, because they are legacy and backwards thinking. So market share alone won't help (unless we get to some huge double digits I suppose).

C'on, there is no growth, or just minimal growth. Currently Linux needs all the help it can get to somehow reach 5% or 10% to get some attention of the bigger players. I can understand from your perspective that you don't like the big boys, but Linux needs them to become a serious gaming platform imho.

Feral and Co. will find something else to do. Like making their own engines or games :)

I'm less optimistic, they will just concentrate their efforts on Mac/iOS and leave Linux for good.


Last edited by jens on 26 Mar 2018 at 8:40 pm UTC

It's just not my point. Linux is the last open gaming platform to be. While it is good to have most games playable on Linux, it is essential to have most of them natively on Linux, because otherwise no one will see a Linux market anymore. Therefore I am not concerned about developers that hate Linux, but about the others to stop native Linux versions, because it's cheaper for them to just point at Wine.

I could't disagree more. Linux will attract a continued gaming market if a critical mass for consumption exists, and sales returns a profit over the development and support of a game, not because a producer sees other producers creating native ports. The technicalities behind native or non-native is irrelevant when you look at a financial cost-benefit analysis in target platform support.

Producers already do use emulation (VP, wine) to sell their games to the Linux market, and this raises linux market sales, visibility, platform mind-share, while lowering the cost of development and support. The biggest detraction is the lack of consumer acceptance, which is actually hurting the platform more than helping it, as we saw with the witcher 2 where the producer decided to discontinue linux support in the sequel despite releasing a reasonably successful (emulated) version.

C'on, there is no growth, or just minimal growth

There were a few surveys that showed that developers are making more Linux games than in the past. Native engines are progressing well. All that is movement forward, and good one at that. I don't see Linux gaming in some dire need of saving today. More push from serious players would be of course helpful, and it doesn't mean everyone should sit idle. And Wine is actually helping move things forward here.

I'm less optimistic, they will just concentrate their efforts on Mac/iOS and leave Linux for good.

Well, time will test their dedication. There are enough dedicated developers, who are already interested in supporting Linux gaming today. See a new article about inXile for example: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/03/hands-on-with-bards-tale-4-the-first-proper-series-entry-in-30-years/

So Linux gaming doesn't depend on Feral, unlike some think.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 8:46 pm UTC

i think wine also helps with growing linux market share. I mean how many people ask for "I want to switch to linux, but i play this or that game, will it work on linux?" if those said games work good enough a person can try out Linux and probably will buy some native games as well, while growing the Linux market.

Its the chicken-egg problem anyway, we need more users to get somewhere and wine can help with that.


edit: one good example is most of the blizzard games. Thousands of Linux users play them with the help of wine, they can just use it and play their favorite WoW, Diablo or Heartstone while still being on Linux and buying some native linux games, otherwise they would be forced to use Windows.


Last edited by Xpander on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:07 pm UTC

Producers already do use emulation (VP, wine) to sell their games to the Linux market, and this raises linux market sales, visibility, platform mind-share, while lowering the cost of development and support.

Not really emulation, but translation (source or static / binary), that's also called "wrapping". But overall yes, increasing ease of such wrapping improves probability of more games, not the opposite.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:04 pm UTC

i think wine also helps with growing linux market share. I mean how many people ask for "I want to switch to linux, but i play this or that game, will it work on linux?" if those said games work good enough a person can try out Linux and probably will buy some native games as well, while growing the Linux market.

Its the chicken-egg problem anyway, we need more users to get somewhere and wine can help with that.

No , you're just fooling yourself.

Is PUBG runs with it? No

Is Fortnite runs with it? No

Is League of Legends runs without crashing? Maybe today , unsure for tomorrow

You sound like Wine evolved into a stage that it can run anything. No , we're still trying 4 or 5 years games to work at a decent performance on Wine. We're not even up-to-date. So Wine is not a convincing tool and it never will be.

i think wine also helps with growing linux market share. I mean how many people ask for "I want to switch to linux, but i play this or that game, will it work on linux?" if those said games work good enough a person can try out Linux and probably will buy some native games as well, while growing the Linux market.

Its the chicken-egg problem anyway, we need more users to get somewhere and wine can help with that.


edit: one good example is most of the blizzard games. Thousands of Linux users play them with the help of wine, they can just use it and play their favorite WoW, Diablo or Heartstone while still being on Linux and buying some native linux games, otherwise they would be forced to use Windows.

Yes, sure, these are valid arguments. Don't get me wrong, wine, dxvk etc. are cool projects and should continue to prosper to attract more people to get their loved games over to Linux land. People should just keep in mind that a game bought specifically for wine is a windows sell and won't help to increase Linux sells. Stated differently, (potential) native versions or ports should be strongly preferred, even when released much much later.


Last edited by jens on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:51 pm UTC

Is PUBG runs with it? No

Is Fortnite runs with it? No

Is League of Legends runs without crashing? Maybe today , unsure for tomorrow

DRM tends not to work in Wine, but what effect does it have on anything? Developers of said games don't have interest in Linux, and if Wine doesn't support them, it means such cases are irrelevant to the idea, that Wine somehow hurts native Linux releases. So your example only disproves such claims.

Wine does support many games in practice, so what Xpander said is correct, that Wine helps people switch to Linux and ditch Windows, thus weakening the catch 22.

And also, let's ask critics or Wine, are they dual booting or not? If they do, they should consider using Wine instead.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:28 pm UTC

Is PUBG runs with it? No

Is Fortnite runs with it? No

Is League of Legends runs without crashing? Maybe today , unsure for tomorrow

DRM tends not to work in Wine, but what effect does it have on anything? Developers of said games don't have interest in Linux, and if Wine doesn't support them, it means such cases are irrelevant to the idea, that Wine somehow hurts native Linux releases. So your example only disproves such claims.

Wine does support many games in practice, so what Xpander said is correct, that Wine helps people switch to Linux and ditch Windows, thus weakening the catch 22.

And also, let's ask critics or Wine, are they dual booting or not? If they do, they should consider using Wine instead.

You're either really really dumb ( which you're not ) or pretending to be a one for making excuses for Wine.

Problem is not the dual booting , problem is feeding Windows market.

You're giving money for an unsupported product, on an unsupported OS in order to run it via an unsupported tool.

That is a big middle finger to devs who put effort into Linux versions for their games. Why they did it , you would buy it anyway for Wine.

If you don't get it , i can try to explain much more simply.


Last edited by Leopard on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:42 pm UTC

Problem is not the dual booting , problem is feeding Windows market.

The major step there is to stop using Windows for good. That automatically reduces Windows market. So dualbooting is way bigger issue if you are concerned about reducing Windows market. By using Windows you are paying money directly to MS.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:46 pm UTC

Problem is not the dual booting , problem is feeding Windows market.

The major step there is to stop using Windows for good. That automatically reduces Windows market. So dualbooting is way bigger issue if you are concerned about reducing Windows market.

No , it is not. There are many people out who use Windows partition for only Photoshop like programs and gaming on Linux partition and buying Linux only games.

So ; Wine users are mostly much more worse than dual booters.

Is PUBG runs with it? No

Is Fortnite runs with it? No

Is League of Legends runs without crashing? Maybe today , unsure for tomorrow

DRM tends not to work in Wine, but what effect does it have on anything? Developers of said games don't have interest in Linux, and if Wine doesn't support them, it means such cases are irrelevant to the idea, that Wine somehow hurts native Linux releases. So your example only disproves such claims.

Wine does support many games in practice, so what Xpander said is correct, that Wine helps people switch to Linux and ditch Windows, thus weakening the catch 22.

And also, let's ask critics or Wine, are they dual booting or not? If they do, they should consider using Wine instead.

If only Steam counted Wine users as Linux users..

I guess we have to find a strategy for that. My suggestions:

1. Use Wine only for games that have no chance for a native Linux version.
2. Tell developers you purchased their games to use them with Wine on Linux, at your expences and risk, because you know there can be no support (as in customer service) for your platform.


Last edited by Nevertheless on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:54 pm UTC

No , it is not. There are many people out who use Windows partition for only Photoshop like programs and gaming on Linux partition and buying Linux only games.

So ; Wine users are mostly much more worse than dual booters.

So, we'll disagree. As long as you dualboot, I also don't see your criticism of Wine as valid even according to your approach. Start with replacing dualbooting with Wine for everything that you have exclusively on Windows, and ditching everything that doesn't work otherwise. Then you can start criticizing Wine as something worse than native approach. Otherwise you are losing forest behind the trees.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 9:57 pm UTC

No , it is not. There are many people out who use Windows partition for only Photoshop like programs and gaming on Linux partition and buying Linux only games.

So ; Wine users are mostly much more worse than dual booters.

So, we'll disagree. As long as you dualboot, I also don't see your criticism of Wine as valid even according to your approach. Start with replacing dualbooting with Wine for everything that you have exclusively on Windows, and ditching everything that doesn't work otherwise. Then you can start criticizing Wine as something worse than native approach.

I'm not a dual booter?

I'm not a dual booter?

That doesn't need to apply specifically to you, but to anyone who doalboots. They have several options. Either find replacement for what they use on Windows natively, or if they can't, run it in Wine. The worse one is to continue dual booting. Ditching what they use there is another option, but not always practical.


Last edited by Shmerl on 26 Mar 2018 at 10:02 pm UTC

No , it is not. There are many people out who use Windows partition for only Photoshop like programs and gaming on Linux partition and buying Linux only games.

So ; Wine users are mostly much more worse than dual booters.

So, we'll disagree. As long as you dualboot, I also don't see your criticism of Wine as valid even according to your approach. Start with replacing dualbooting with Wine for everything that you have exclusively on Windows, and ditching everything that doesn't work otherwise. Then you can start criticizing Wine as something worse than native approach. Otherwise you are losing forest behind the trees.

Sorry, your discussed quite well till now, but this is just nonsense ;). There are valid reason for dual booting and valid reasons for wine. Both usages should be debatable without excluding opinions due to usage of one or the other.

PS: According to his profile @Leopard does not dual boot ;)
PPS: Just to be sure, me neither :)


Last edited by jens on 26 Mar 2018 at 10:06 pm UTC