Wine 3.4 released with more Vulkan support

WINE has come -such- a long way from three years ago, when I was considering it basically useless for the type of Windows games I want to use it for (mostly more recent games using DX11, not twenty year old retro games). Now? It runs almost all of my legacy Windows games more or less flawlessly. Sims 3/4, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Skyrim... all works. Not not only works, but works well! With a bit more work on the D3D bits, I guess it will soon run Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls Online nicely, too. Both of these games already run for me, but with fairly major issues.

Overall I am really impressed. A few months ago, I became a 100% Linux user when my Windows partition got corrupted and I decided that this was a signal from the Penguin gods to finally do away with it for good. WINE helps me to still run the few non-Linux games I still crave, and is a nice insurance in case some of the publishers currently supporting Linux decide not to anymore.

WINE has come -such- a long way from three years ago, when I was considering it basically useless for the type of Windows games I want to use it for (mostly more recent games using DX11, not twenty year old retro games). Now? It runs almost all of my legacy Windows games more or less flawlessly. Sims 3/4, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Skyrim... all works. Not not only works, but works well! With a bit more work on the D3D bits, I guess it will soon run Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls Online nicely, too. Both of these games already run for me, but with fairly major issues.

Overall I am really impressed. A few months ago, I became a 100% Linux user when my Windows partition got corrupted and I decided that this was a signal from the Penguin gods to finally do away with it for good. WINE helps me to still run the few non-Linux games I still crave, and is a nice insurance in case some of the publishers currently supporting Linux decide not to anymore.

Yes, this is exactly what I like to see and why I think Wine is such a valuable tool. For people who move to Linux or want to, being able to play games that are likely never to see a port can be an issue, a valid one too. You've paid for those games, you want to play them...but you want to use Linux.

I still maintain my position that any full Linux user would be wise not to continue purchasing *new* games to play in Wine, but for previous purchases it's fair game really.

In this wine version sonic all stars transformed shows big improvement compared last test

Wine 2.15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVEGssNA1QA

And now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4llgZ6pIvk

Another titles works with this wine is

Grand Theft Auto San Andreas + Mods + Cleo

View video on youtube.com

Street Fighter X Tekken

View video on youtube.com

Blodrayne 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-YD97pUVpg

Blodrayne 2

View video on youtube.com

^_^


Last edited by mrdeathjr on 17 Mar 2018 at 11:24 pm UTC

Wine is a great tool and DXVK improvement is amazing. But it is also a little bit worrying since lately ( due to improvements ) it became an excuse to spend Windows only games ( because some titles even work on day 1 ) and puts a Linux native port into a meaningless position.

Because lately i'm seeing so much people screaming on various games Steam forums as " Do Linux version " but already most of them have it.

So when developer decided to do it ( with official support , which is the key part as a platform value ) , dev expecting sales from that platform.

But seeing so many people have it , dev would simply say : You already bought it , sale is done. Why should i bother with it and put effort for supporting it?

Or dev can port it anyway but possibly face with low sale count from Linux.

Why native ports are important? Linux need more gamers and best way to convince a newcomer is the native game count , not Wine. Because Wine is not a tool ( despite Lutris like solutions , you can't guarentee that scripts will work for everyone ) that a newcomer can quickly adapt.

That worries me and also feels like a shitty move to devs whom put efforts into Linux versions.

That worries me and also feels like a shitty move to devs whom put efforts into Linux versions.

This seems like a weird statement to me. Are you suggesting the WINE devs stop making progress? As you said, native games are obviously the easiest way to game, and it's probably the way the majority of the Linux crowd games most of the time. Of course there are folks like Mr Death Jr. above who dedicate a lot of time into it, Linux attracts hobbyists (And good on 'em ^_^). However, I can't see that impacting porting decisions. Most Linux users probably don't use WINE on a daily basis. Most game devs probably won't even be familiar with it.

On the other hand there are people working hard on WINE so we can play games and use software that may never be on our platform natively, and that's pretty rad, yeah?


Last edited by HadBabits on 17 Mar 2018 at 9:56 pm UTC

With Wine-Devel many things don't seem to work. When starting Doom 2016 it complains about a missing Vulkan library. GTA V can't even get to the black screen. Generally I get a lot of error messages.

So I'm still using the latest staging version. At least that's how things work on my system (Nvidia GTX 970 / Xubuntu).

For the Devel-branch I had installed:
sudo apt-get install --install-recommends winehq-devel

But now I'm back to staging. However, this is stuck in version 2.21. Has anyone under Ubuntu ever played with the Devel-branch Doom 2016 or made GTA V work?


Last edited by 1xok on 17 Mar 2018 at 10:18 pm UTC

However, I can't see that impacting porting decisions. Most Linux users probably don't use WINE on a daily basis. Most game devs probably won't even be familiar with it.

I think you are wrong here. I guess you are correct that wine is not used on a lot of Linux boxes, but I'm sure that most people that play games on Linux are familiar with wine. Every dev with common sense will first investigate how people play on a certain platform before investing resources into it.

I do use dosbox occasionally to fire up a retro game, I'm all in that wine should provide a way for people to move some of their loved games over to Linux or to play games that will never see the light in Linux land. Unfortunately wine is progressing a little bit to well, especially with initiatives like dxvk. I guess Feral will stop porting games to Linux once their (upcoming) games are somewhat playable on wine with the windows version before Feral's release dates:(. No matter if they offer support and a better performance, most people will then buy the windows version earlier.. Feral stopping supporting Linux is in my opinion the end of AAA games on Linux.

While wine (and dxvk) are technically astonishing I do share the anxiousness that we, the Linux community, are shooting ourselves in the foot when trying to compete with the few companies that are earning money with games on Linux..


Last edited by jens on 17 Mar 2018 at 10:33 pm UTC

I think you are wrong here. I guess you are correct that wine is not used on a lot of Linux boxes, but I'm sure that most people that play games on Linux are familiar with wine. Every dev with common sense will first investigate how people play on a certain platform before investing resources into it.

I'll concede on this point, as we are doing a lot of speculation here.

Unfortunately wine is progressing a little bit to well, especially with initiatives like dxvk. I guess Feral will stop porting games to Linux once their (upcoming) games are somewhat playable on wine with the windows version before Feral's release dates.

I still think this is a bizarre concept though. I mean, if WINE really did become 1:1 performance-wise that'd be fantastic. It would be yet another way a dev could deliver their game to our platform; I think the only reason we don't have 'wine-ports' now is that devs want to guarantee a degree of parity of performance, and we're not there yet.

Sure, maybe it would make a company like Feral obsolete, but markets evolve over time. Who knows, it might even make their job easier, if all they had to do was maintain quality wine-wrappers for devs. I know I certainly hate fiddling with WINE and would have no problem buying an official "Linux port" even if it's not native.

That worries me and also feels like a shitty move to devs whom put efforts into Linux versions.

This seems like a weird statement to me. Are you suggesting the WINE devs stop making progress? As you said, native games are obviously the easiest way to game, and it's probably the way the majority of the Linux crowd games most of the time. Of course there are folks like Mr Death Jr. above who dedicate a lot of time into it, Linux attracts hobbyists (And good on 'em ^_^). However, I can't see that impacting porting decisions. Most Linux users probably don't use WINE on a daily basis. Most game devs probably won't even be familiar with it.

On the other hand there are people working hard on WINE so we can play games and use software that may never be on our platform natively, and that's pretty rad, yeah?

Sure , let me explain and ask.

I'm not saying Wine devs to stop , i'm saying Linux users to stop buying Windows only games.

I will be more open : Pirate Windows only games if you are in a so bad needy position to play them.

Because :

1-) You will feed Windows market ( already massive ) and in a some way grace devs or companies with don't giving a shit about Linux.

2-) When you bought a Windows only game ; you won't purchase it again when it is ported to Linux. So Wine development kinda forcing porters ( VP , Feral ) to pick not run well with Wine titles.

Is depending Wine for gaming more and more , can be considered as Gaming on Linux? I don't think so , that is kinda similar to saying " Hey , i'm running Windows with gpu passthrough on my Linux box for gaming , so i'm gaming on Linux".

Yeah mate , yeah you are.

With Wine-Devel many things don't seem to work. When starting Doom 2016 it complains about a missing Vulkan library. GTA V can't even get to the black screen. Generally I get a lot of error messages.

So I'm still using the latest staging version. At least that's how things work on my system (Nvidia GTX 970 / Xubuntu).

For the Devel-branch I had installed:
sudo apt-get install --install-recommends winehq-devel

But now I'm back to staging. However, this is stuck in version 2.21. Has anyone under Ubuntu ever played with the Devel-branch Doom 2016 or made GTA V work?

Doom works fine in Vulkan mode on Wine 3.4. The way Vulkan I implemented Vulkan is different from wine-staging. The functionality is within what Vulkan calls an 'ICD', which is winevulkan.dll. You need to install the Windows vulkan loader vulkan-1.dll to use winevulkan. See full instructions on my github: https://github.com/roderickc/wine-vulkan. We are working on making this all easier in newer versions.

Doom works fine in Vulkan mode on Wine 3.4.

The way Vulkan I implemented Vulkan is different from wine-staging.

The functionality is within what Vulkan calls an 'ICD', which is winevulkan.dll.

You need to install the Windows vulkan loader vulkan-1.dll to use winevulkan.

See full instructions on my github: https://github.com/roderickc/wine-vulkan.

We are working on making this all easier in newer versions.

Very impressive work and wine devs stay approved many patches in lastest weeks (compared with december when wine devs dont accept vulkan patches)

^_^

Is depending Wine for gaming more and more , can be considered as Gaming on Linux? I don't think so , that is kinda similar to saying " Hey , i'm running Windows with gpu passthrough on my Linux box for gaming , so i'm gaming on Linux".

Yeah mate , yeah you are.

Yes? WINE is a tool to bring Windows software to Linux, such tools improving are a good thing, and it's not the only one. Consider how many major game engines have acknowledged Linux as a platform, making it easier to port. WINE could be used in the same capacity, another means to the same end: doing what I want on my platform of choice, which also happens to be the platform of choice ;B

Again, WINE hasn't reached the point yet where devs would trust putting out a version of their game through it, but if we get there I think that's rad. You could open Steam one day, buy and play a game advertised with Linux support without ever realizing it was a wine-wrapped game; sounds like a fine day to me :)

Is depending Wine for gaming more and more , can be considered as Gaming on Linux? I don't think so , that is kinda similar to saying " Hey , i'm running Windows with gpu passthrough on my Linux box for gaming , so i'm gaming on Linux".

Yeah mate , yeah you are.

Yes? WINE is a tool to bring Windows software to Linux, such tools improving are a good thing, and it's not the only one. Consider how many major game engines have acknowledged Linux as a platform, making it easier to port. WINE could be used in the same capacity, another means to the same end: doing what I want on my platform of choice, which also happens to be the platform of choice ;B

Again, WINE hasn't reached the point yet where devs would trust putting out a version of their game through it, but if we get there I think that's rad. You could open Steam one day, buy and play a game advertised with Linux support without ever realizing it was a wine-wrapped game; sounds like a fine day to me :)

You are very optimistic because you are so much depending on Wine and use it extensively ( based on your reaction ) , you are just looking for every little thing to prove that is not a burden for native development.

So if we are done with Wine wet dreams , let's jump on to the facts.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/417290/discussions/0/352788917758965624/

Look at the response of developer.

" We heard some people ran it on Wine! "

So if this the gaming scene you want to see , go ahead and act like this is not hurtful in many ways.

Fact is ; they won't wrap games via Wine and put them on market. Because they need provide support for it but they won't because they didn't know anything about it.

Another fact is ; maybe one of these developers would actually put work on a native Linux version and he/she will get familiar with the platform. So they can choose more cross-platform minded tools for their next game. But with Wine wraps ; they won't and also they will still use tools for MS side only.

So from that point ; mouse and cat thing will start again. Dx11 released nearly 10 years ago and still this day Wine has problems with it. So with the act " Wine wrapping officialy " won't work when there are new specs out , let's say Dx13.

It is only beneficial to very old games with no chance to get a native version for both technical and time/money issues. Dx9 era games basically.

TL: DR ; With Wine wrappers like you suggested for official releases , there is no way to convince dev to use for another one because it is basically a Windows imitation with lots of missing implementations and most importantly , years behind than Windows environment provides with DX.

You are very optimistic because you are so much depending on Wine and use it extensively ( based on your reaction ) , you are just looking for every little thing to prove that is not a burden for native development.

So if we are done with Wine wet dreams , let's jump on to the facts.

I don't know if I said something to put you off, but you're coming off kinda aggressive? :| As I've stated twice in this thread, WINE isn't ready for what I'm suggesting yet, but I'm making a case for why improving it is good. The fact is I rarely use it and don't really like tinkering with it. That's why I look forward to the day when I don't have to.

Everything you stated as facts are actually speculation, which you actually contradict in the same comment. You give the example of a developer saying "We heard some people ran it on Wine!" as proof that WINE is bad for Linux gaming. But looking at the thread, it seems more like the dev is just suggesting WINE because they decided they're not doing a port, but not because of WINE. You also go on to say developers would never use WINE because they don't know about it, after giving an example of a developer who was aware of it?

In conclusion, I just want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting official wine-wrapped games is a viable thing right now. Rather, I was making an argument for why WINE is a good tool, and how we could benefit from it's continued development. I also want to point out I did mention other avenues to Linux ports, when I mentioned game engines adding Linux support, and I certainly do not think the future of gaming on Linux depends on WINE; just that it isn't threatened by it. ^_^

☮♥️


Last edited by HadBabits on 18 Mar 2018 at 2:02 am UTC

I'm not saying Wine devs to stop , i'm saying Linux users to stop buying Windows only games.

I will be more open : Pirate Windows only games if you are in a so bad needy position to play them.

The Linux (or whatever platform) fanaticism is not good...
And to steal a game just because is not available for your favourite platform is really not good at all.

1-) You will feed Windows market ( already massive ) and in a some way grace devs or companies with don't giving a shit about Linux.

If a game company doesn't give a shit about Linux, is because the CEO of that company doesn't give a shit about Linux...

There is nothing We can do about that...Well... In theory there is away: Big gaming companies like EA and Ubisoft are in the NASDAQ. If the Linuxians of the world buy all the stock they can of those companies, then it will be possible to change things.

2-) When you bought a Windows only game ; you won't purchase it again when it is ported to Linux. So Wine development kinda forcing porters ( VP , Feral ) to pick not run well with Wine titles.

Actually, when a Windows only game that is in my Steam Windows account is ported to Linux, I purchase it again for my Steam for Linux account..
And, If you compare carefully both game libraries, you gonna see that some games in my steam for Linux account aren't in my steam for windows account, because if I can avoid windows, I will do it...

I don't do dual boot; I have two machines, one with a legit Windows 7 and another with Ubuntu.

But seeing so many people have it , dev would simply say : You already bought it , sale is done. Why should i bother with it and put effort for supporting it?

Because supported version is still better than unsupported one. That's self explanatory.

The impact of Wine and dxvk won't be less ports, but hopefully more ports that will use them, instead of closed wrappers from Feral and the like. I don't think it will have any additional impact on native ports which were always more expensive to make. Native ports will come from engines that gain Linux support (which is happening anyway).

While wine (and dxvk) are technically astonishing I do share the anxiousness that we, the Linux community, are shooting ourselves in the foot when trying to compete with the few companies that are earning money with games on Linux..

And you are wrong, the progress is very welcome, since it actually makes porting (wrapper style one at least) a lot easier for developers. Feral and Co. can adapt to this shift in the technology. They can as well compare their wrappers to Wine and dxvk, and if the later are better (and I see no reason why they can't become such), they can just use them, instead of reinventing the wheel. That's the power of FOSS.

There is always value in expertise itself. Studios can of course find experts in house, but some could prefer to hire external contractors to do the work. And why should it make any difference to them whether such contractors (like Feral) use Wine+dxvk or their own closed wrapper? As long as they get a good result - that's exactly what they needed.


Last edited by Shmerl on 18 Mar 2018 at 3:18 am UTC

Because supported version is still better than unsupported one. That's self explanatory.

I don't think you got what he said. If the linux users already bought it because it ran well in wine then the developer won't see any extra money from them by going through the effort of porting as they already bought the game.

WINE has come -such- a long way from three years ago, when I was considering it basically useless for the type of Windows games I want to use it for (mostly more recent games using DX11, not twenty year old retro games). Now? It runs almost all of my legacy Windows games more or less flawlessly. Sims 3/4, Star Trek Online, Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, Skyrim... all works. Not not only works, but works well! With a bit more work on the D3D bits, I guess it will soon run Fallout 4 and Elder Scrolls Online nicely, too. Both of these games already run for me, but with fairly major issues.

Overall I am really impressed. A few months ago, I became a 100% Linux user when my Windows partition got corrupted and I decided that this was a signal from the Penguin gods to finally do away with it for good. WINE helps me to still run the few non-Linux games I still crave, and is a nice insurance in case some of the publishers currently supporting Linux decide not to anymore.

Could you elaborate on the problems in F4? I'm waiting for a good moment to start playing it.

And you are wrong, the progress is very welcome, since it actually makes porting (wrapper style one at least) a lot easier for developers. Feral and Co. can adapt to this shift in the technology. They can as well compare their wrappers to Wine and dxvk, and if the later are better (and I see no reason why they can't become such), they can just use them, instead of reinventing the wheel. That's the power of FOSS.

You are missing my point. Sure, porting would get a lot easier. But no game dev/pubslisher will do this anymore because they won't make any money with it anymore. Most Linux gamers will buy the windows version of the games when wine continues to progress in this rate. There is simply no market anymore for (Linux-) games (wrapped or native) on Linux. Like stated by others, devs will just redirect Linux questions to wine and community support. Very easy for them, they got the (windows-) sale and don't have to offer support. In the end this will only strengthen windows as a gaming platform. The only solution for this would be day-1 releases on Linux, but this is just wishful thinking, it will never happen with bigger titles for the current very small number of Linux users. For that Linux would need a much stronger market share, but this won't happen when nobody would buy (later-) ported games anymore.

You are missing my point. Sure, porting would get a lot easier. But no game dev/pubslisher will do this anymore because they won't make any money with it anymore

I wrote above. Officially supported version is still better than unsupported one, so there is added value.

There is simply no market anymore for (Linux-) games (wrapped or native) on Linux.

You can make the same claim about current closed wrappers from Feral and VP, i.e. they supposedly hurt the market of native games. Yet we see the opposite, major game engines are improving Linux support, and increasing amount of native games are coming out these days.