Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve

[quote=Comandante Ñoñardo]

It is impossible to do the same with Steam games..
Can you move these games to another of your machines using an external HDD?

Yes, yes you can.

In fact, you don't need the Steam client, you need a Steam client. I use SteamCMD, and play several Steam games without even having the client installed on my computer. Neither SteamCMD, nor the Steam client need to be running for the games on that list to work, and you can simply copy the install folder to another computer, and it will still work.

This : https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management and the FAQ

The problem there is... With GOG you can download your game on their website OR with Galaxy. With Steam you don't have that choice, you HAVE TO install their client on your PC and then download/install your games.
Why you can't download a game on their website, it is too much complicated for them?
And (tell me if i'm wrong) you can't use Steam all the time in Offline mode.

Imagine if you'd buy any digital product on Amazon (just for example, I hate Amazon) but you can't download it until you install their software on your machine...
Anywhere you buy a game etc on Internet, they have to know if it's really you who bought it, so you login and download your stuff.
Or maybe you have an another idea to achieve that? Come on...

People here are sadly recently immediately on the edge as soon as the subjects Steam/Valvue or DRM are touched. (I guess I had my share in it too.) Impartial opinions aren't that easy to find anymore.

Hasn't DRM been a point of contention since... well, since it was first introduced? There's nothing recent about this, and it's easy to see why some people feel strongly about it. The basic issue is a lot like the proprietary vs free software debate. It's all about who decides what you can and cannot do with a product you've bought. If indeed you're even paying for a product and not just a license to use it.

People here are sadly recently immediately on the edge as soon as the subjects Steam/Valvue or DRM are touched. (I guess I had my share in it too.) Impartial opinions aren't that easy to find anymore.

Hasn't DRM been a point of contention since... well, since it was first introduced? There's nothing recent about this, and it's easy to see why some people feel strongly about it. The basic issue is a lot like the proprietary vs free software debate. It's all about who decides what you can and cannot do with a product you've bought. If indeed you're even paying for a product and not just a license to use it.

Yes sure, the discussion is not new. It just feels to me that the discussions here on GOL about this topic are recently more often, much more heated and more .. (I'm missing a word: something like extreme, it is either 100% one side or 100% the other, nearly no in-between, at least not outspoken).


Last edited by jens on 22 April 2018 at 6:04 pm UTC

(I'm missing a word: something like extreme, it is either 100% one side or 100% the other, nearly no in-between, at least not outspoken).

"Polarized"? I guess people who don't feel strongly about a subject aren't likely to comment on it.

Yes, yes you can.

In fact, you don't need the Steam client, you need a Steam client. I use SteamCMD, and play several Steam games without even having the client installed on my computer. Neither SteamCMD, nor the Steam client need to be running for the games on that list to work, and you can simply copy the install folder to another computer, and it will still work.

Time to do some experiments...

Now, if you, people, don't have it, the important thing here is to buy Firewatch on GOG as soon as posible, just as a precaution in case of the new owner decide to remove it.

It's just that some keep claiming that Steam isn't DRM. Arguments that explain how it is DRM were brought many times, so I'm not sure why this topic comes up every so often, but I guess some define DRM only in limited way, that's why they can think that Steam itself isn't one.

This : https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management and the FAQ

From this page: "When a program is designed to prevent you from copying or sharing a song, reading an ebook on another device, or playing a single-player game without an Internet connection, you are being restricted by DRM."

Following this definition, some of the games on Steam are not restricted by DRM.

The problem there is... With GOG you can download your game on their website OR with Galaxy. With Steam you don't have that choice, you HAVE TO install their client on your PC and then download/install your games.
Why you can't download a game on their website, it is too much complicated for them?

I think it would be possible to do this. Steam would then take the latest update of the game, package it and distribute the game files along with an executable installer. That is pretty much what GOG does. You don't get the original/vanilla game files. You get a GOG installer with all games files incorporated in it. With Steam, the installer is incorporated in the Steam client. You need to download it before you can download a game. With GOG, you need to download the installer every time you download a game on their website. In both cases, you need to provide your credentials in order to download the game.

Apart from that, after being installed, every DRM free game can be copied and shared freely without any restrictions. That is true for GOG and Steam.

GOG Galaxy is a nice tool if you want automatic updates for your games. Steam also provides this. There are good reasons for a dedicated game management client.

And (tell me if i'm wrong) you can't use Steam all the time in Offline mode.

I think you can, but not every game works in offline mode. But I'm not really sure on this one. However, I regularly start games without an internet connection on my laptop, and I rarely have problems with this. I think some games require you to start them at least once with a connection, but after this they work just fine in offline mode. But again, I'm not entirely sure on this one.

But DRM free games on Steam don't have this problem. You can copy, share and execute them no matter what. DRM free games on Steam don't need the offline mode. Just go to the directory and execute the main game binary. Done.

DRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.

DRM-free services explicitly provide downloadable packages for that. If they close down tomorrow, you can still use them to install games you paid for. Steam does not. And Steam explicitly requires you to use it to re-install what you bought. It would be a violation of their TOS to make manual backup and bypass their installation.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 6:52 pm UTC

DRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.

DRM-free services explicitly provide downloadable packages for that. If they close down tomorrow, you can still use them to install games you paid for. Steam does not. And Steam explicitly requires you to use it to re-install what you bought. It would be a violation of their TOS to make manual backup and bypass their installation.

But you can make backup of the DRM free games on Steam. What would prevent you from doing it? Those games have no DRM in them, so they never check for anything. You can just back them up, copy them, move the folder anywhere... it doesn't matter. The games will just work.

You say that the Steam TOS does forbid this. Can you provide the passage in the TOS about this?

But you can make backup of the DRM free games on Steam. What would prevent you from doing it?

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms).

This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

They quite clearly say a few key points here:

1. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer.

That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

2. This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license.

I.e. if your account is terminated or Steam closes down (both would mean end of the subscription naturally), you aren't allowed to install or use those games anymore.

All that fits into restriction on digital goods after purchase.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 7:13 pm UTC

(I'm missing a word: something like extreme, it is either 100% one side or 100% the other, nearly no in-between, at least not outspoken).

"Polarized"? I guess people who don't feel strongly about a subject aren't likely to comment on it.

Thanks, yes, that fits pretty well.

Can you move these games to another of your machines using an external HDD?

Yes.

In fact, now I come to think of it, the developers of Kerbal Space Program recommend using a backup if you're using mods.

DRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.

Well, it isn't. It's required for initial download, not reinstallation. End of discussion.

That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

That may be, but the Steam client isn't used to manage it. It isn't DRM.


Last edited by Dunc on 22 April 2018 at 7:42 pm UTC

DRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.

If you count in legal restrictions as well, then virtually all games that are not freely distributable fall into the category of DRM-encumbered software. I for one never saw the absolute need for steam installation or having a running instance of it with games that i have downloaded with it that were otherwise DRM-free or did not mandate some kind of account.

Can we can talk about the possibility of Valve releasing new games? I'm excited because as someone who once used Steam on OSX and bought a Steam Controller, I got the "Sorry the Steam Controller didn't work on OSX, so here's all of our games, past, present, and future, for free" deal. I thought I'd never get to make use of it for anything but Valve's back catalog.


Last edited by Mountain Man on 22 April 2018 at 7:45 pm UTC

Can we can talk about the possibility of Valve releasing new games? I'm excited because as someone who once used Steam on OSX and bought a Steam Controller, I got the "Sorry the Steam Controller didn't work on OSX, so here's all of our games, past, present, and future, for free" deal. I thought I'd never get to make use of it.

Yes, let's. And oh, you lucky sod. :D

Well, it isn't. It's required for initial download, not reinstallation. End of discussion.

I trust their TOS more than your assumptions. So the discussion ends pretty much when you try to say it's OK to violate their TOS when using their games.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 7:51 pm UTC

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms).

This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

They quite clearly say a few key points here:

1. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer.

That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

2. This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license.

I.e. if your account is terminated or Steam closes down (both would mean end of the subscription naturally), you aren't allowed to install or use those games anymore.

All that fits into restriction on digital goods after purchase.

Thanks for providing those passages. English is not my native tongue, and for the most part, I have a hard time understanding what's going on in such terms.

Valve defines "Subscriptions and Content+Services" as follows:

B. Subscriptions; Content and Services

As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as “Content and Services”; the rights to access and/or use any Contents and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."

If I understand correctly, "Content and Services" are the games, virtual items, mods and updates for any of those. A "Subscription" is the right to access those things through the Steam client.

For me, this sounds a little vague. This could either mean that you are not allowed to access those things through the Steam client after termination of agreement. Or it could mean how you interpret it: That you are not even allowed to use the content (the game, not the subscription), even if you have the game on your disk and it can be executed.

GOG defines "GOG Content" as follows:

when we're talking about games, in-game content, virtual items or currency or GOG videos or other content which you can purchase or access via GOG services, we’ll just call them “GOG games” or “GOG videos” respectively and when we talk about them all together they are “GOG content”.

Further down in GOGs User Agreement, it is stated:

2. USING GOG.COM AND GOG CONTENT
2.1 We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.

I understand this in this way: They grant us the license to download and use content. This license can be revoked. Do I understand this correctly?

I understand this in this way: They grant us the license to download and use content. This license can be revoked. Do I understand this correctly?

Yes, they can revoke your right, but I don't really see in their TOS a clear explanation if it applies retroactively to what you already paid for. GOG clarify the scenario of the store closing down for example (which would mean automatic end of user agreement with them):

It seems very unlikely, but if we have to stop providing access to GOG services and GOG content permanently (not because of any breach by you), we will try to give you at least sixty (60) days advance notice by posting a note on www.gog.com and sending an email to every registered users – during that time you should be able to download any GOG content you purchased.

So they make clear, that you still will be permitted to use your purchases (backed up naturally).

Also, they point out this:

If you would like us to delete your account please contact our Support Team here. Termination will not affect already existing rights or obligations of us or you.

I.e. you can close GOG account yourself, and still have the right to use your purchases.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 8:01 pm UTC

Yes, they can revoke your right, but I don't really see in their TOS a clear explanation if it applies retroactively to what you already paid for.

Yeah, it's rather vague. I just read those parts of Steams subscriber agreement in my native tongue, and it's the same. Steam and GOG could do a better job in explaining this better.

Edit because of your edit:

So they make clear, that you still will be permitted to use your purchases (backed up naturally).

It certainly suggests it, but it's still not clear. In this case, they specifically mean the access to services and games, which would be the possibility to download them. The part I quoted sounds a little bit different.

This is how I see it: The games are neither owned by the user nor Steam/GOG. The developer/publisher is the only one actually owning the game in its entirety. If a developer/publisher releases a game without DRM, they are OK with you to back up this game and use it however you want for personal usage.


Last edited by Doc Angelo on 22 April 2018 at 8:10 pm UTC