Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve

Quoting: Doc AngeloBut you can make backup of the DRM free games on Steam. What would prevent you from doing it?

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

QuoteSteam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms).

QuoteThis license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

They quite clearly say a few key points here:

1. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer.

That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

2. This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license.

I.e. if your account is terminated or Steam closes down (both would mean end of the subscription naturally), you aren't allowed to install or use those games anymore.

All that fits into restriction on digital goods after purchase.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 7:13 pm UTC

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: jens(I'm missing a word: something like extreme, it is either 100% one side or 100% the other, nearly no in-between, at least not outspoken).

"Polarized"? I guess people who don't feel strongly about a subject aren't likely to comment on it.

Thanks, yes, that fits pretty well.

Quoting: Comandante ÑoñardoCan you move these games to another of your machines using an external HDD?

Yes.

In fact, now I come to think of it, the developers of Kerbal Space Program recommend using a backup if you're using mods.

Quoting: ShmerlDRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.

Well, it isn't. It's required for initial download, not reinstallation. End of discussion.

QuoteThat precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

That may be, but the Steam client isn't used to manage it. It isn't DRM.


Last edited by Dunc on 22 April 2018 at 7:42 pm UTC

Quoting: ShmerlDRM is defined very simply as something that limits the usage of your digital good after purchase. If Steam is required to install the game after purchase (i.e. inability to legally make a backup of your game that you can install without Steam), it is already DRM. I.e. it's not only playing that should not be restricted, it's installation from backup too.

If you count in legal restrictions as well, then virtually all games that are not freely distributable fall into the category of DRM-encumbered software. I for one never saw the absolute need for steam installation or having a running instance of it with games that i have downloaded with it that were otherwise DRM-free or did not mandate some kind of account.

Can we can talk about the possibility of Valve releasing new games? I'm excited because as someone who once used Steam on OSX and bought a Steam Controller, I got the "Sorry the Steam Controller didn't work on OSX, so here's all of our games, past, present, and future, for free" deal. I thought I'd never get to make use of it for anything but Valve's back catalog.


Last edited by Mountain Man on 22 April 2018 at 7:45 pm UTC

Quoting: Mountain ManCan we can talk about the possibility of Valve releasing new games? I'm excited because as someone who once used Steam on OSX and bought a Steam Controller, I got the "Sorry the Steam Controller didn't work on OSX, so here's all of our games, past, present, and future, for free" deal. I thought I'd never get to make use of it.

Yes, let's. And oh, you lucky sod. :D

Quoting: DuncWell, it isn't. It's required for initial download, not reinstallation. End of discussion.

I trust their TOS more than your assumptions. So the discussion ends pretty much when you try to say it's OK to violate their TOS when using their games.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 7:51 pm UTC

Quoting: Shmerlhttp://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

QuoteSteam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a non-exclusive license and right, to use the Content and Services for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms).

QuoteThis license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license. The Content and Services are licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Content and Services. To make use of the Content and Services, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.

They quite clearly say a few key points here:

1. Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Content and Services onto your computer.

That precludes manual installation from the backup you referred to. I.e. doing it manually would be violation of their TOS.

2. This license ends upon termination of (a) this Agreement or (b) a Subscription that includes the license.

I.e. if your account is terminated or Steam closes down (both would mean end of the subscription naturally), you aren't allowed to install or use those games anymore.

All that fits into restriction on digital goods after purchase.

Thanks for providing those passages. English is not my native tongue, and for the most part, I have a hard time understanding what's going on in such terms.

Valve defines "Subscriptions and Content+Services" as follows:

Quoting: ValveB. Subscriptions; Content and Services

As a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content available to Subscribers. The Steam client software and any other software, content, and updates you download or access via Steam, including but not limited to Valve or third-party video games and in-game content, and any virtual items you trade, sell or purchase in a Steam Subscription Marketplace are referred to in this Agreement as “Content and Services”; the rights to access and/or use any Contents and Services accessible through Steam are referred to in this Agreement as "Subscriptions."

If I understand correctly, "Content and Services" are the games, virtual items, mods and updates for any of those. A "Subscription" is the right to access those things through the Steam client.

For me, this sounds a little vague. This could either mean that you are not allowed to access those things through the Steam client after termination of agreement. Or it could mean how you interpret it: That you are not even allowed to use the content (the game, not the subscription), even if you have the game on your disk and it can be executed.

GOG defines "GOG Content" as follows:

Quoting: GOGwhen we're talking about games, in-game content, virtual items or currency or GOG videos or other content which you can purchase or access via GOG services, we’ll just call them “GOG games” or “GOG videos” respectively and when we talk about them all together they are “GOG content”.

Further down in GOGs User Agreement, it is stated:

Quoting: GOG2. USING GOG.COM AND GOG CONTENT
2.1 We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.

I understand this in this way: They grant us the license to download and use content. This license can be revoked. Do I understand this correctly?

Quoting: Doc AngeloI understand this in this way: They grant us the license to download and use content. This license can be revoked. Do I understand this correctly?

Yes, they can revoke your right, but I don't really see in their TOS a clear explanation if it applies retroactively to what you already paid for. GOG clarify the scenario of the store closing down for example (which would mean automatic end of user agreement with them):

QuoteIt seems very unlikely, but if we have to stop providing access to GOG services and GOG content permanently (not because of any breach by you), we will try to give you at least sixty (60) days advance notice by posting a note on www.gog.com and sending an email to every registered users – during that time you should be able to download any GOG content you purchased.

So they make clear, that you still will be permitted to use your purchases (backed up naturally).

Also, they point out this:

QuoteIf you would like us to delete your account please contact our Support Team here. Termination will not affect already existing rights or obligations of us or you.

I.e. you can close GOG account yourself, and still have the right to use your purchases.


Last edited by Shmerl on 22 April 2018 at 8:01 pm UTC

Quoting: ShmerlYes, they can revoke your right, but I don't really see in their TOS a clear explanation if it applies retroactively to what you already paid for.

Yeah, it's rather vague. I just read those parts of Steams subscriber agreement in my native tongue, and it's the same. Steam and GOG could do a better job in explaining this better.

Edit because of your edit:

QuoteSo they make clear, that you still will be permitted to use your purchases (backed up naturally).

It certainly suggests it, but it's still not clear. In this case, they specifically mean the access to services and games, which would be the possibility to download them. The part I quoted sounds a little bit different.

This is how I see it: The games are neither owned by the user nor Steam/GOG. The developer/publisher is the only one actually owning the game in its entirety. If a developer/publisher releases a game without DRM, they are OK with you to back up this game and use it however you want for personal usage.


Last edited by Doc Angelo on 22 April 2018 at 8:10 pm UTC