Campo Santo, developer of Firewatch has joined Valve

Sigh, I get what you mean, you need the client to install or restore and Valve don't have an official position on what they will do if they close (although I remember they said there would be a way for steam users to play their games if that ever happened)
Then again you assume they are just evil and will make sure their users lose all their games, which would make no sense, GabeN would become the most hated person on the planet :D

Completely agree with you, these people want Linux going back to those days when there wasnt worthy games for the OS.
Simple the DRM part of the Steam is optional, devs can release their games on Steam with an executable file that doesn need Steam to be working for running. Actually DRM attract many developers which want at least some protection from piracy.
Face it you bunch of hipsters, DEVS LIKES DRM, GOG will never be a standard.
I have copy many of my games from my backup harddisk to my new steam installation, steam recognizes the games so I dont have to download them again, much better than consoles and other systems who needs the game to be downloaded again because strong DRM.
Keep crying about DRM, I just here enjoying my LINUX STEAM games.


Last edited by orochi_kyo on 23 April 2018 at 10:22 pm UTC

I can make a tar.gz of any steam game I have installed (which, like with GOG can be installed via command line tools) without DRM, move it anywhere I want, and expect it to work later.

So not only is it like GOG, but in some ways it is better because I can make my own packages of whatever version is on Steam in whatever way I want at any time I want. Steam just gives me files, what I do with them is my choice.


Last edited by Mblackwell on 23 April 2018 at 10:43 pm UTC

I can make a tar.gz of any steam game I have installed (which, like with GOG can be installed via command line tools) without DRM, move it anywhere I want, and expect it to work later.

That much is known, the question is, are you allowed to do it or not. According to Steam TOS - IMHO not. Analysis was already brought above. And it fits very well with the way their official backup tool is implemented which has DRM. You can bypass it by manual copying? So you can as well break various forms of DRM too to make personal backups. That doesn't make those cases DRM-free.

It is not like GOG who by design let you making personal backups that don't rely on any client or service to be installed.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 April 2018 at 11:20 pm UTC

The GOG ToS specifies that they have a right to revoke your access to their services for any large number of reasons. How will you download your games then?


Btw, you specifically skipped the passage where Steam clarifies what the automatic updating is for and that you are agreeing to THAT as part of the ToS. And the ToS also doesn't specify whether you are or are not allowed to copy software, except to explicitly state in a few places that they expect you to maintain backups yourself and without warranty.


Last edited by Mblackwell on 24 April 2018 at 12:19 am UTC

And DRM free means, that you now can make a backup, and legally install it later, even if the store closes down.

I don't think that's what DRM means, though. Legality, while people who use DRM schemes often count on it to give teeth to their DRM measures, in itself is not DRM. If I publish an ebook as a .pdf along with a legal document threatening massive retaliation if the buyer does anything with it that might constitute acting like they owned the thing, the legal document does not constitute DRM. And, absent any DRM measures to circumvent, it cannot trigger the draconian legal penalties for circumventing DRM; it would have to rely on copyright, contract law or whatever.

Similarly if you have a Steam game that has no technical encumbrances to doing with it as you will, their policies would not constitute DRM even if they were considerably more blatant in their restrictions than seems to be the case. They would just be bad policies. If you want to say "Steam games without DRM are still hedged about by Valve's bad/questionable policies and they should not be", sure, fine. But that is a different thing from DRM.

As to Steam backups requiring the Steam client to un-backup . . . that's really not unusual for backup software. Backup tools work like that--you use the tool to back the stuff up, then you use the same tool to push the stuff forward again. Nobody calls Linux Mint's backup tool "DRM" (I've been known to call it "crap" though). It is bad if Steam's terms of use imply making your own backups is a violation, but again if there's no technical barrier to doing so, that's not DRM, just a bad policy. Maybe an intentionally bad policy, maybe just an accidentally bad policy.

Imagine GOG and Steam being shutdown in the next three months...

About GOG, You have three months for to download your entire library for Linux (and Windows and MAC too, just in case), and as long as you have backups of your gog games, you can install them in the years to come in your new machines, even if the store doesn't exist anymore, because the games are DRMFREE...

You buy it- it's yours...
DRM-free means no copy protection, on-line checks, or any other annoyances. It’s all about just you and your games and movies. You should feel you own the products that you buy - just like a book, or a DVD.

On GOG.com, no matter if you are online or offline, you will never be locked away from your purchases.

With Steam, You have three months for to download your entire library too.. Once Steam is down, you can play offline most of the games on that machine.. Even you can move some games to another machine and play them without the client...
But that's all.. even if you manually copy all your library to new PC, You will need to authenticate your Steam account credentials on that machine, but You can't, because Steam is down...
That's it.. You loose the games you paid for...

This is why I purchased Firewatch on GOG... And, as long as I have my backup, even if GOG is shut down, the game Is mine for the years to come.. ^_^

The GOG ToS specifies that they have a right to revoke your access to their services for any large number of reasons. How will you download your games then?

The idea is that you download something after you buy it, and you legally can back it up (as long as you legally purchased it). As far as I understand Steam TOS, it doesn't say you can legally back up anything in DRM-free fashion even if you legally purchased it. They explicitly say, that the automatic installation is needed (I understand it as referring to their client). And their official back up tool in their client is DRMed as we established above. This leaves no clear option for DRM-free backup. Again, I'm basing it on what TOS says, not on guessing what it doesn't say.


Last edited by Shmerl on 24 April 2018 at 1:58 am UTC

As to Steam backups requiring the Steam client to un-backup . . . that's really not unusual for backup software. Backup tools work like that--you use the tool to back the stuff up, then you use the same tool to push the stuff forward again. Nobody calls Linux Mint's backup tool "DRM" (I've been known to call it "crap" though). It is bad if Steam's terms of use imply making your own backups is a violation, but again if there's no technical barrier to doing so, that's not DRM, just a bad policy. Maybe an intentionally bad policy, maybe just an accidentally bad policy.

For me, if legal backup is DRMed, and manual one is outlawed, the service is surely not DRM-free.


Last edited by Shmerl on 24 April 2018 at 3:08 am UTC

Liam, you need a tool to move a bunch of posts from a comment thread into a new (linked) forum thread. We can not and need not avoid debating DRM, but whenever one gets going, discussing anything else becomes almost impossible.


I'm not very familiar with Firewatch (it's still on my wishlist and I'm good at avoiding spoilers), but to me it seems Valve is gathering narrative design talent for their upcoming games.

With Steam, You have three months for to download your entire library too.. Once Steam is down, you can play offline most of the games on that machine.. Even you can move some games to another machine and play them without the client...
But that's all.. even if you manually copy all your library to new PC, You will need to authenticate your Steam account credentials on that machine, but You can't, because Steam is down...
That's it.. You loose the games you paid for...

This is why I purchased Firewatch on GOG... And, as long as I have my backup, even if GOG is shut down, the game Is mine for the years to come.. ^_^

If you download Firewatch with Steam and back the game directory up, you can also play it for ever - no matter what happens to Steam or Valve. I don't understand why you still believe that this is not true. Test it for yourself (if you have Steam games without DRM). I've tested it with a few small indie games. It simply works.

I'm not very familiar with Firewatch (it's still on my wishlist and I'm good at avoiding spoilers), but to me it seems Valve is gathering narrative design talent for their upcoming games.

I didn't like Firewatch very much for the story and that one character, but the game was made really well. Very good execution of new ideas. The gameplay was really hitting my sweet spot. I can't wait what games Valve will do in the future.

I'm not very familiar with Firewatch (it's still on my wishlist and I'm good at avoiding spoilers), but to me it seems Valve is gathering narrative design talent for their upcoming games.

I didn't like Firewatch very much for the story and that one character, but the game was made really well. Very good execution of new ideas. The gameplay was really hitting my sweet spot. I can't wait what games Valve will do in the future.

I'd be very disappointed if a Valve game, especially if it's a Portal game, didn't have a healthy dose of their signature humour.

The GOG ToS specifies that they have a right to revoke your access to their services for any large number of reasons. How will you download your games then?

The idea is that you download something after you buy it, and you legally can back it up (as long as you legally purchased it). As far as I understand Steam TOS, it doesn't say you can legally back up anything in DRM-free fashion even if you legally purchased it. They explicitly say, that the automatic installation is needed (I understand it as referring to their client). And their official back up tool in their client is DRMed as we established above. This leaves no clear option for DRM-free backup.

No, it leaves lots of clear options for DRM-free backup. Just no options which don't arguably violate Steam's TOS. But there is no technical, digital, measure blocking one from doing backups in unapproved ways. Thus, doing such backups does not circumvent any digital scheme. Thus, it is not factually DRM and doing the backups does not trigger legal penalties for circumventing DRM so it is not legalistically DRM either. This is practically syllogistic logic here.
I am getting to the point where I think you just want to keep calling it "DRM" because "Valve have some bad or at least ambiguous stuff in their TOS which they could theoretically 'get' you with if they turned out to want to" just doesn't sound nearly as dramatic.

No, it leaves lots of clear options for DRM-free backup. Just no options which don't arguably violate Steam's TOS.

That's out of scope. You can also go ahead and break various DRM, producing DRM-free backup. Personally I don't have a problem with people breaking DRM for their personal use (DRM in fact is aimed to forbid otherwise completely legal fair use), but we aren't talking about that.

Thus, it is not factually DRM and doing the backups does not trigger legal penalties for circumventing DRM so it is not legalistically DRM either.

I wouldn't be so sure. The client itself can be viewed as an installation "measure", and skirting its use can be viewed as "circumventing" it. DMCA-1201 abusers come up with even weirder ways to mess things up for those unfortunate who happen to be subjects to some DRM schemes.

I call it DRM, because they don't provide legal ways to make DRM-free backups. That's about it.


Last edited by Shmerl on 24 April 2018 at 6:07 pm UTC

Okay, but as others have pointed out above, all vendors have Terms of Service.

Yes, and it's important what those terms are.

Indeed it is, but not in the context of this argument. Your original comment claimed that the Steam client is DRM, not that Steam's Terms of Service are harsh. I actually agree that they are, and that making copies of DRM-free Steam games is a legal grey area compared to games bought from the likes of GoG. But we're not arguing about rights; we're arguing about the management of rights. If a developer decides not to include Steamworks DRM, the client doesn't enforce the TOS - i.e., manage rights - in any way.

It's similar to downloading old '80s games from the internet. Few (if any) jurisdictions recognise the concept of “abandonware” in law; every game ever sold is still, legally, under copyright. You have no right to download them. But it's practically possible, since they aren't encumbered by DRM. You're (arguably) breaking the law, but you can do it. Same with Steam. Copying Steam games that don't use Steamworks DRM may or may not break the TOS, but it's possible. If the client itself was DRM, it simply wouldn't be.

The client itself can be viewed as an installation "measure", and skirting its use can be viewed as "circumventing" it.

Okay, let's say you're in court on a DMCA charge. The prosecution alleges that you circumvented measures intended to prevent copying and redistribution. What, exactly, did you have to do that you wouldn't have done with any other file anywhere else on your computer? Nothing. You copied some files. There are no “measures”.

Which is why the actual Steamworks DRM exists. If Valve thought that argument would hold any water at all, why did they go to the bother and expense of creating a cryptographic DRM system for Steam?

Edit: I actually managed to spell DMCA wrong. :S:


Last edited by Dunc on 24 April 2018 at 9:45 pm UTC

But we're not arguing about rights; we're arguing about the management of rights.

Those are tied together. Same as anti-circumvention garbage is tied to it. If that wasn't clear enough, DRM-free above obviously meant legal DRM-free when referring to stores, not simply ability to remove DRM and get DRM-free result, or get it through violating the TOS.

Nothing. You copied some files. There are no “measures”.

Accessing the files outside the client can be viewed as circumventing in this case. You don't buy files through Steam, so it can be viewed that you aren't supposed to access them. But again, I'm not really interested in debating this topic since it changes nothing. You still can't legally back things up in DRM-free fashion. Ergo, Steam is not DRM-free.

what was the story about again?

I don't remember much, but must have been something about "DRM". Valve acquiring Digital Rights to Manage Campo Santo?

Search for the words "backup" and "copy" in the Steam TOS and be amazed.